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Ramos' anti-tactics

striebs

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
4,504
667
I think you've misunderstood them tbh - he's not saying we use "anti-tactics" as that we defend and nullify the other team and grind a win, like Mourinho or even Benitez, as you've said yourself, but that he adapts his tactics and team selection to his opposition to play to their weaknesses and nullify their strengths while playing to our strengths.

Nullifying the oppositions strengths is usually detrimental to playing to our strengths .

Juande did a perfect job of balancing these competing requirements on Sunday .

The balance is going to be different for a weaker side like Birmingham but we should never underestimate the opposition like Grant and Terry underestimated Tottenham Hotspur .
 

TaoistMonkey

Welcome! Everything is fine.
Staff
Oct 25, 2005
32,629
33,579
good post mate and i agree. you can tell that we were out to stop them play. we can't always play to our strenghts but we can sure as hell stop people playing to theirs!

:up:
 

Chaplain

Member
May 25, 2007
495
34
Yes, but that's what LT means - he is mindful of *our* strengths while shapes his lineup to *their* weaknesses. It's why we always start with 4-4-2.
 

idlepete

Imperfect modal meaning extractor
Oct 17, 2003
9,001
8
I know it's an unfamiliar sight to us Yiddos, but we don't need to invent a new tactical phrase to describe it, there already is one, and other teams use it all the time. They call it 'defending.'
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
I know it's an unfamiliar sight to us Yiddos, but we don't need to invent a new tactical phrase to describe it, there already is one, and other teams use it all the time. They call it 'defending.'

:)

Or, more explicitly, howzabout "defending as a team"?
 

idlepete

Imperfect modal meaning extractor
Oct 17, 2003
9,001
8
Well, yeah. But you have to defend as team to defend well anyway. Unless Ledley King is playing, obviously. Then you can just leave him to it and all pile forward.
 

Mr-T

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2006
2,603
563
Good post, be repped.

Well thought out explaination of juande's tactics.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
There's been something niggling away for days now, a though I had at the time but forgot in the excitement and I've just remembered it...

Did anyone else notice the composed, infinitely patient way we kept the ball in those first 30 minutes. It was very un-Tottenham. There was nothing gung-ho about our play, in fact I remember thinking that if I was a neutral I'd be scratching my head and thinking this is dull. At the time though I thought Chelsea aren't liking this at all.

We'd played them in the league a couple of weeks previously and they'd done a professional number on us, winning comfortably in the end. We'd gone into the game off the back of the exciting 1-1 against Arsenal which we should have won and which we'd dominated. So our confidence was high and we went at Chelsea in the same spirit, but they're the past masters at denying space and opportunity, they just sat there, worked hard and when we ran out of ideas took control in their typically remorseless fashion.

Last Sunday was the antithesis of that. Chelsea like the opposition to come at them, if they were a boxer they'd be the type with the ugly style, the kind which covers up for the first few rounds, conserves strength and then simply bullies their way to victory in the latter rounds. They must have expected us to go at them all guns blazing, looking for the knock-out blow early on - that after all is our style, the Nigel Benn of the football world, all flashy shots, can finish spectacularly but also with a suspect chin - instead, like I say, we sat and stroked the ball about our back four.

And we kept playing that way, keeping possession and playing calmly and unhurredly and basically said to them, we've got all day, you want to win this you're going to have force it. And they were non-plussed and we kept snaking out the occasional jab, to knock them off balance (Malbranques snap shot, Keane's deflected effort, Chimbonda's cross bar) and they started to look a bit concerned. in fact they offered little and whenever they did we covered up effectively, until they got lucky with the free-kick.

Even then though we got back to our feet and although we were now forcing it more, we remained calm and it was more a case of upping the pressure. Then Ramos switched us to South-Paw (Lennon moving flanks :wink:) and Chelsea got flustered trying to readjust. Bang, Berbatov hit them with a classic sucker punch and they were down to take an eight count.

The rest of the match saw us take more and more control. Chelsea were tiring and only last minute desperate rear-guard action and a bit of over exuberance from us (Cech saving from DZ) prevented us landing the knock-out blow in regulation time. There was only going to be one winner now though and it duly came in extra time. A simple straight cross-shot caught them a glancing blow on the chin and they were down. They fought back to their feet to play a desperate last round with a flurry of ineffective punches, but we covered up well till the final bell.

Anyway, despite getting carried away with my analogy, the point remains, simply by not playing as they expected and as they prefer teams to do, we forced Chelsea out of their comfort zone. You can be certain Grant and Cate would have briefed the team to expect us to really come at them, when we didn't they were dumbfounded and when they tried to switch game-plans we were ready for them, because we knew what they were going to do while they didn't know what we were going to.

Sun Tzu always said that wars are won and lost in the minds of the generals, that the way to ensure victory is to attack where the enemy is weak and defend where they are strong. To pick you own ground, to know the mind of your enemy, while not allowing him to know yours, even if it's harder to do so, try and attack where it's least expected, this way you're sow doubt in the minds of the enemy and sap their morale.

Sorry for the winding and unfocussed post, but this is what we did and in particular this is what Ramos did and this is why we won.
 

Hearny

New Member
May 12, 2005
266
0
Excellent thread Locotoro.
Really good insightful read and some interesting responses to it.

I feel like i've learned something today.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
interesting analogy Sloth :) another analogy is the 'soft return' in tennis - I don't follow tennis any longer but 'in my day' one tactic to try against Rod laver's power game was to try and hit the ball softly to slow things down - so in a way we trying to damp that game down -

of course very little worked against Laver who, taking into account that tennis like all sports has moved on, was probably the best of all time - but at least it was something to try

we tried and famously succeeded v CFC - but they ain't no Rod Lavers that's for sure :)
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,967
45,257
I think the opposite is true with Ramos.. Benitez is an anti-tactican. Jose was. Allerdyce is as is Megson et al.....Wenger, Ferguson and Ramos attempt to impose thier will on the other team. Ramos has shown that his consistent tactics and approach are effective in all departments and we happen to upset tactic of others by simply playing well with the ball and working hard off it. If Ramos adhered to the anti-tactic philosophy we would have seen a move away from 442 in a few of the games we've played. The fact we still played 442 against Chelsea's 451/433 in the final is the best example of how Ramos doesn't set up an anti-tactic.

tRiKS I don't think the thread was based on the negative, Ramos definitely adapts our tactics to suit the opposition and that is a positive the negative is to try to stop their strengths whereas the positive is to do that as well as exploiting their weaknesses I think Locotoro said that very well.

Suely a very good example was bringing on Kaboul as a third tall CD to counter chelsea's desperate ball lobbing tactics, whether you think that was negative I don't know but at the same time he pushed Lennon forward with Berba forcing them to hang people back and not allowing them a full scale assault on our goal.
Not sure that we weren't still playing 442 but it was definitely adapted.
 

idlepete

Imperfect modal meaning extractor
Oct 17, 2003
9,001
8
There's been something niggling away for days now, a though I had at the time but forgot in the excitement and I've just remembered it...

Did anyone else notice the composed, infinitely patient way we kept the ball in those first 30 minutes. It was very un-Tottenham. There was nothing gung-ho about our play, in fact I remember thinking that if I was a neutral I'd be scratching my head and thinking this is dull. At the time though I thought Chelsea aren't liking this at all.

We'd played them in the league a couple of weeks previously and they'd done a professional number on us, winning comfortably in the end. We'd gone into the game off the back of the exciting 1-1 against Arsenal which we should have won and which we'd dominated. So our confidence was high and we went at Chelsea in the same spirit, but they're the past masters at denying space and opportunity, they just sat there, worked hard and when we ran out of ideas took control in their typically remorseless fashion.

Last Sunday was the antithesis of that. Chelsea like the opposition to come at them, if they were a boxer they'd be the type with the ugly style, the kind which covers up for the first few rounds, conserves strength and then simply bullies their way to victory in the latter rounds. They must have expected us to go at them all guns blazing, looking for the knock-out blow early on - that after all is our style, the Nigel Benn of the football world, all flashy shots, can finish spectacularly but also with a suspect chin - instead, like I say, we sat and stroked the ball about our back four.

And we kept playing that way, keeping possession and playing calmly and unhurredly and basically said to them, we've got all day, you want to win this you're going to have force it. And they were non-plussed and we kept snaking out the occasional jab, to knock them off balance (Malbranques snap shot, Keane's deflected effort, Chimbonda's cross bar) and they started to look a bit concerned. in fact they offered little and whenever they did we covered up effectively, until they got lucky with the free-kick.

Even then though we got back to our feet and although we were now forcing it more, we remained calm and it was more a case of upping the pressure. Then Ramos switched us to South-Paw (Lennon moving flanks :wink:) and Chelsea got flustered trying to readjust. Bang, Berbatov hit them with a classic sucker punch and they were down to take an eight count.

The rest of the match saw us take more and more control. Chelsea were tiring and only last minute desperate rear-guard action and a bit of over exuberance from us (Cech saving from DZ) prevented us landing the knock-out blow in regulation time. There was only going to be one winner now though and it duly came in extra time. A simple straight cross-shot caught them a glancing blow on the chin and they were down. They fought back to their feet to play a desperate last round with a flurry of ineffective punches, but we covered up well till the final bell.

Anyway, despite getting carried away with my analogy, the point remains, simply by not playing as they expected and as they prefer teams to do, we forced Chelsea out of their comfort zone. You can be certain Grant and Cate would have briefed the team to expect us to really come at them, when we didn't they were dumbfounded and when they tried to switch game-plans we were ready for them, because we knew what they were going to do while they didn't know what we were going to.

Sun Tzu always said that wars are won and lost in the minds of the generals, that the way to ensure victory is to attack where the enemy is weak and defend where they are strong. To pick you own ground, to know the mind of your enemy, while not allowing him to know yours, even if it's harder to do so, try and attack where it's least expected, this way you're sow doubt in the minds of the enemy and sap their morale.

Sorry for the winding and unfocussed post, but this is what we did and in particular this is what Ramos did and this is why we won.

I thought we were like a beekeeper, trying to get to the sweet, sweet honey of the League Cup. DZ was like that smoke beekeepers use that irritates the bees at first (and we got stung) but then it makes them all drowsy and you can work round them to get to that honey. And Woodgate and King were like the veil that protects the beekeepers face. And Berbatov's name begins with B, which is like a bee.

No, wait - we were like Daniel Larusso in Karate Kid, and Chelsea were like the Cobra Kai with their 'mercy is for the weak' attitude, and Alvarez was like Mr Miyagi, using his mystical healing powers to keep Woodgate and King out on the pitch with Woody delivering the crane kick as the final blow. If do right, no can defence.

No, wait - we were like King Kong that time he fought Godzilla. No, hang on - we were more like a team of investment bankers on a team-building excercise at a Monster Truck rally. Or like a young Superman, wanting to become human but saddled with the legacy of Kal-El. Or maybe we were like Gandhi, using nonviolent resistance to overcome the repressive domination of our foreign Empire-building nemesis.

I don't know. Analogies are pretty, but confusing, and my head hurts. Can we be a football team again now please?
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
I thought we were like a beekeeper, trying to get to the sweet, sweet honey of the League Cup. DZ was like that smoke beekeepers use that irritates the bees at first (and we got stung) but then it makes them all drowsy and you can work round them to get to that honey. And Woodgate and King were like the veil that protects the beekeepers face. And Berbatov's name begins with B, which is like a bee.

No, wait - we were like Daniel Larusso in Karate Kid, and Chelsea were like the Cobra Kai with their 'mercy is for the weak' attitude, and Alvarez was like Mr Miyagi, using his mystical healing powers to keep Woodgate and King out on the pitch with Woody delivering the crane kick as the final blow. If do right, no can defence.

No, wait - we were like King Kong that time he fought Godzilla. No, hang on - we were more like a team of investment bankers on a team-building excercise at a Monster Truck rally. Or like a young Superman, wanting to become human but saddled with the legacy of Kal-El. Or maybe we were like Gandhi, using nonviolent resistance to overcome the repressive domination of our foreign Empire-building nemesis.

I don't know. Analogies are pretty, but confusing, and my head hurts. Can we be a football team again now please?
Awww diddums!! :razz:
 

andyw362

New Member
Oct 16, 2005
993
0
When I used to play youth football in Spain I became familiar with a footballing term 'Contra la tactica'. Loosely translated means anti-tactics, basically means stoping the opposition from playing.

I wrote a post in a thread not long after Ramos took charge and before the changes that are now evident came to fruition. It generally highlighted the fact that Ramos is very capable of using anti-tactics. Ramos sets out his teams with two aims at the heart:
-1) To highlight the weaknesses of the opposition and ensuring they are exposed to full effect.
-2) To observe the strengths of the opposition and ensure they are incapable of playing to those strengths.

Have you ever wondered why the bigger teams seem to play crap against us?

ManUre -Scored that last minute goal against us to level 1-1. Tevez, who was previously on fire, was almost anonomous throughout.

Ar5ena1 - Got walloped 5-1 and didnt even whimper in their defeat. They didnt even get out of neutral.

Chelski - lost obviously on Sunday, but my god they were awful. On that showing who would consider them title challengers.

Now this doesnt take anything away from the way we played but I do think that the tactical nous of Ramos plays a large part in winning these duels. Even in Spain, Ramos made a habit of beating Real and Barca, (Real quite convincingly and Barca in the Euro SuperCup)

Just take two games in question:

ManUre - Strengths - Playing a wide and expansive offensive game with wingers who can stretch the middle play. Two mobile forwards who will both drop deep to collect the ball and play one-twos into feet.
- Lennon played very high up on the right hand side in this match (appeared to be glued to the touchline more so than normally) to keep Evra from getting forward and of course creates two very good chances himself

Ar5ena1 - Strengths - Playing quick throughballs to the front players and scoring from inside the box.
- So Tainio (more mobile than Hudd) plays and acts as a fantastic disciplined shield making interception after interception. Lots of closing down and fast counter attacking play against an attack minded Ar5ena1 defence.

Chelski - Strengths - The long ball into Drogba with plenty of forward movement from Essien and Lampard, also lots of pace from Anelka and SWP.

- The extremely mobile Zokora plays and counteracts the forward runs of Lampard and Essien.
- Jenas plays a more defensive role doing a similar job tyo Zokora covering midfield runners.
- Woodgate ensures Drogba is not the hub of Chelski play by sending every long ball back into the abyss from whence it came.
- A midfielder is brought on for a defender as with 3 forwards we play 3 defenders and push the extra man forward.
- Lennon is switched to the left (with less defensive duties as a result of the extra midfielder) where he is pitted against the faltering Belletti.

Next time we play look at the way we set up and analyse the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition. I am willing to bet money that when we play Liverpool not only will we beat them but they will be absolutely awful and will have an "off day" as the pundits like to call it.

I do believe we have the most tactically minded manager in the Prem!!

:hump::hump::hump:

yes I agree 100%. Good post.

We have played the best 3 teams and won 2 drew 1 and according to the 'experts' all 3 had an 'off' day!

No doubt about it Ramos is a tactical genius and his teams are greater than the sum of their parts.
 

andyw362

New Member
Oct 16, 2005
993
0
Excellent post!

We should all recall that Fergie changed his formation 5 times in the game at WHL.

Ramos is the most tactically aware and adept manager in the prem since Jose.

I remember an interview he gave while at Seville where he said that he has a system that can enable weaker players to beat superior players alot of the time, but that if he had the best players or players at least as good as those from the top teams his team would win everything.

Not very modest, but very true and I guess it is one of the main reasons he came to Spurs. He knows that we are one of the richest teams in the entire world and that given the right circumstances we can attract the best players in the world.

Juande will win us things, oh, he already has!!!

Anyone know what that system is? I might sell it on e bay.
 

PantherX

Active Member
Feb 2, 2004
557
39
i am tactically anti-tactical after reading this thread..whatever my statement means if it means anything but...

so WHEN my wife asks me to come home early bcz my daughter is driving her nuts ( tactic ) i can tell her i am gonna be late at work (anti-tactic ), but instead hang out with the guys playing cards?

will that work, u think ? thats a receipe for distaster man
That solution is akin to Ramos not turning up for the Carling Cup final, you're not countering anything just avoiding the whole issue.

The correct "counter-tactic" would be to give your daughters boyfriend a box of condoms and send him over to your house....you may need to the same with your wife's boyfriend as well.

You're guaranteed not to get any calls that evening.
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,402
14,089
And on the subject of our performances against the 'Big Four', it's worth pointing out that our away league record against them over the past three-and-a-half seasons is better than Liverpool's against Arsenal, Chelsea and United. I was amazed to hear the other week that Liverpool's draw against Chelsea was the first time they've got a point against any of the others.

That, SS57, is really quite shocking Eek

I would even go so far as to say (and i've been thinking this since the season started) its now only the big 3 and not the big 4. Liverpool being the only team displaced in recent seasons
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,402
14,089
Locotoro - you and I have duelled in the other thread, but I think this is an excellent post. And since you clearly understand these matters, my argument about Zoko is that he should play the role Poulsen plays for Sevilla, which is partly about filling in the holes when FBs like Dani Alves bomb forward.

I suspect when Ramos has his own squad next season, we will see even more horses for courses in terms of his team selection. Huddlestone is a great example. There will be matches when because of the way the opposition set up, it's possible to start him as a CB, where he can use his excellent passing skills to initiate attacks. There will also be occasions during matches when the opposition have dropped very deep and again Ramos may be able to put the Hud on at CB to pull the strings from there. Alternately, especially in Europe, Ramos may have Big Tom controlling the game from CM.

As I wrote in the thread below, Juande is streets ahead of most other coaches in terms of his ability to read the game, and gives Spurs a definite edge in almost every match.
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27769

Good post.


Yanno, you are more than a worthy adversary.

I think Zokora can play that role that you have suggested, Poulsen is probably more disciplined but the change I have seen in Zokora's defensive abilities is phenomenal

I do agree with Ramos bringing in his own horses during the close season and to think its not only Hudd to have played out of position, Tainio, O'hara and Chimbonda have also played their roles well
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,402
14,089
There's been something niggling away for days now, a though I had at the time but forgot in the excitement and I've just remembered it...

Did anyone else notice the composed, infinitely patient way we kept the ball in those first 30 minutes. It was very un-Tottenham. There was nothing gung-ho about our play, in fact I remember thinking that if I was a neutral I'd be scratching my head and thinking this is dull. At the time though I thought Chelsea aren't liking this at all.

We'd played them in the league a couple of weeks previously and they'd done a professional number on us, winning comfortably in the end. We'd gone into the game off the back of the exciting 1-1 against Arsenal which we should have won and which we'd dominated. So our confidence was high and we went at Chelsea in the same spirit, but they're the past masters at denying space and opportunity, they just sat there, worked hard and when we ran out of ideas took control in their typically remorseless fashion.

Last Sunday was the antithesis of that. Chelsea like the opposition to come at them, if they were a boxer they'd be the type with the ugly style, the kind which covers up for the first few rounds, conserves strength and then simply bullies their way to victory in the latter rounds. They must have expected us to go at them all guns blazing, looking for the knock-out blow early on - that after all is our style, the Nigel Benn of the football world, all flashy shots, can finish spectacularly but also with a suspect chin - instead, like I say, we sat and stroked the ball about our back four.

And we kept playing that way, keeping possession and playing calmly and unhurredly and basically said to them, we've got all day, you want to win this you're going to have force it. And they were non-plussed and we kept snaking out the occasional jab, to knock them off balance (Malbranques snap shot, Keane's deflected effort, Chimbonda's cross bar) and they started to look a bit concerned. in fact they offered little and whenever they did we covered up effectively, until they got lucky with the free-kick.

Even then though we got back to our feet and although we were now forcing it more, we remained calm and it was more a case of upping the pressure. Then Ramos switched us to South-Paw (Lennon moving flanks :wink:) and Chelsea got flustered trying to readjust. Bang, Berbatov hit them with a classic sucker punch and they were down to take an eight count.

The rest of the match saw us take more and more control. Chelsea were tiring and only last minute desperate rear-guard action and a bit of over exuberance from us (Cech saving from DZ) prevented us landing the knock-out blow in regulation time. There was only going to be one winner now though and it duly came in extra time. A simple straight cross-shot caught them a glancing blow on the chin and they were down. They fought back to their feet to play a desperate last round with a flurry of ineffective punches, but we covered up well till the final bell.

Anyway, despite getting carried away with my analogy, the point remains, simply by not playing as they expected and as they prefer teams to do, we forced Chelsea out of their comfort zone. You can be certain Grant and Cate would have briefed the team to expect us to really come at them, when we didn't they were dumbfounded and when they tried to switch game-plans we were ready for them, because we knew what they were going to do while they didn't know what we were going to.

Sun Tzu always said that wars are won and lost in the minds of the generals, that the way to ensure victory is to attack where the enemy is weak and defend where they are strong. To pick you own ground, to know the mind of your enemy, while not allowing him to know yours, even if it's harder to do so, try and attack where it's least expected, this way you're sow doubt in the minds of the enemy and sap their morale.

Sorry for the winding and unfocussed post, but this is what we did and in particular this is what Ramos did and this is why we won.

Sloth, I have three things to say about your post:

1) I also noticed the possession play that we had and realised the difference from our previous encounter with them.

2) Your anology was brilliant, I could almost visualise Ramos using the ole rope-a-dope technique only to come back with a smashing left hook.

3) You seem to have hit the bleeding nail on its head. Your reference to Sun Tzu is exactly what I was thinking. Ironic considering prior to Sunday Ramos himself described the cup final as being a war

Be Repped for that partner
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,402
14,089
Excellent thread Locotoro.
Really good insightful read and some interesting responses to it.

I feel like i've learned something today.

Thanks, incidently I also learnt something today....

there are nude nightclubs in London :eek:mg::hump::eek:mg::hump::eek:mg:
 
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