Ratings v Arsenal

[kernowspur]

Can't believe this thread is still going.
Pablo - Redknapp has done a good job, not brilliant. He got us 4th with the 4th best squad in the League, missed out last year when IMO he got terribly sidetracked by the CL, and has often made puzzling selections and substitutions.
This season I believe only Man U and Man City have better squads than us, so let's see if the manager can get us back in the top four.

 

[Paolo10]

He (and Levy...for all you fanboys out there) has assembled the 4th best squad in the league, which is a brilliant achievement when you consider what he started with IMO.

I'm not so sure we had the 4th best squad in the league last season, but there you go...with injuries, CL etc, 5th was a good achievement.

 

[ealingspur]

I don't want the changes to make us tactically weaker and more likely to loose the game than rescue it, which is what they did. We were only 1-0 down in a tight game at that point. Why panic and make it open game, at OT against Utd, this is hardly wise.

you don't even have 20-20 hindsight vision.

 

[jurgen]

He (and Levy...for all you fanboys out there) has assembled the 4th best squad in the league, which is a brilliant achievement when you consider what he started with IMO.

I'm not so sure we had the 4th best squad in the league last season, but there you go...with injuries, CL etc, 5th was a good achievement.

True. And while many use their own estimation of our squad's ability as a stick to beat Redknapp with (at some points saying we could be 2nd/3rd) we need to look how this squad is maintained and composed in relation to the others around us. We could be 2nd or 3rd but running on 1/3rd or less of the budget of the clubs you'd expect to come 2nd or 3rd, its a little more than simply good management to achieve this. I don't buy the "had fourth best squad so fourth was average" train of thought - by what standard can we prove it to be the fourth best squad (as Paolo says, that being - as per usual - a paper argument not taking into account injuries and suchlike). Certainly in terms of wages (often said to be the most direct correlation to success) we were and are far from fourth.

As an aside, interesting to read this from Mr. Commoli - "There is less of a correlation between possession and success than we supposed." This certainly appears to be borne out by Arsenal at the moment...

 

[tRiKS]

My laptop keyboard is up the left so had to wait to reply to this.

Aren't you the guy who tried to tell me using statistics as your (failed) back-up that Modric had a good game against Citeh? Your selective stats there didn't explain the whole story, much like they don't in this instance either...so let me break it down for you Trixie (Do you mind if I call you that? I probably will anyway)...

First of all, let me assure you, Livermore did get the run around at Old Trafford, as would pretty much anyone with a defensive job to do in a midfield containing Niko, VdV (ish), Bale and Lennon. While he had a decent first half, he didn't do too much creative with the ball, which might back up your 83% pass success stat....ahh pass success, the stat to cover the ills of the unimaginative on the ball (reference our pass % midfield maestro currently on loan to Aston Villa at the moment).

Personally speaking I can see Livermore having a future at Spurs, he reminds me of Jenas with more bottle, but at the moment he should be nowhere near the first team and he hasn't even proved himself on loan at the lower sides yet. I'd quite like to see him prove his quality on loan at another Premier club, much like United did with Cleverley, who as it so happens was the man that Jake didn't get close enough to for the cross to make it 1-0 around the 60 minute mark (I actually said to my mate when I was watching the match, "Livermore's boiler's busted").

Funnily enough you mention the 60 minute mark in your little spiel, we had more of the ball before that? That's amazing, United going 1-0 4p at home and then seeing more of the ball...they came out and stepped up a gear after half time (we also had a forced change at that stage with Walker boking everywhere), in fact they'd the same amount of shots in the 15 minutes before the goal as they had in the whole of the first half.

You talk about how United's possession went up even more after Livermore went off, I'll get to that, but for now let's just look at how and why we changed (in my opinion).

We're 1-0 down, away from home, against the Champions, who if they hold on to the result will make it their 16th home win on the bounce (Up to 19 now, including Chelsea, Arsenal and Norwich)...do we try to win? Do we go for it? Harry thinks let's have a go. Huddlestone on for Livermore (who was shattered) and Pav up with Defoe to see if we can nick a goal, Huddlestone is more experienced than Livermore and is more likely to create chances or smack one into the onion bag from 30 yards plus...Pav as rubbish as he is, is a striker (said to be the 'best finisher at the club' not too long back), capable of the odd smasher.

As it turned out, when the subs happened United went 2-0 up (with a great move) a matter of seconds after and then with us being more open chasing an equaliser, Ferguson stuck with 2 up front (at home...see 4-4-2 vs 4-2-3-1 debate this all started from), but United didn't need to chase the game at 2-0 up...which is probably one of the other reasons why their possession went up after Livermore went off, at home, at 2-0 up...against the weakest centre midfield we've probably had out in 2 seasons. Huddlestone obviously had problems with his ankle, I thought he was just out of form, but the consequent performances and now the operation explains a fair bit.

Actually, if you want to hear the reasoning behind the subs from the horses mouth I found this...

[yt]bPiuidhLnNs[/yt]​

As for Livermore, he's a good prospect, but not up to the standard yet to be effectual in games against United (I honestly think he looked a little out of his depth, admirable effort, but out of his depth nonetheless) and City , who are in a different universe football-wise than Hearts, PAOK and Shamrock Rovers and if it's a choice between him and Modric playing, it's a no brainer. We were light with injuries and dragged our heels in the transfer marker, but is that down to Harry or the Chairman? I know what I think.

Tobi seemed to think Harry sacrificed 3 points against City to make a point to the Chairman, I seem to think the Chairman sacrificed those points to save himself a few million here and make a few million there, but that's just me.

It cost us, but it's done now...back to the Woolwich game, I'm still amazed about people gurning about this 4-4-2 at home, in a game we won, against an over-passing side, with no cutting edge who, quite deservedly lost.

tRiKs: Still misinterpreting stats while trying to justify himself, while ignoring important ones that don't suit his argument or agenda.

I could get the chalkboards out and pwn the life out of you again, but I'll leave it at that.

kthxbye :hello:

I was only showing that Livermoore did a better job on and off the ball than NK and that it was the wrong move to take him off over NK. Going into the next game V city i thought it was wrong Krancjar got the nod over Livermoore who had previously performed better and plays in a role that would compliment Modric better. Nothing more nothing less.

Using a Rednapp press conference to help back-up an argument with someone that is fundamentally critising Rednapps choices is a bit odd.

Oh and the Luka argument V city. Me not replying to your drivel is no measure of defeat. people were calling him rubbish in that game but statistically at least his perfomance wasn't very far removed from a game where he won MOTM. I didn't make comment on him above and beyond that point.

You get very uncool don't you.

 

[ShelfSide18]

If the worst that happens this season is failing to totally muller Arsenal I'll not be unhappy.

Neither will any Spurs fan.

 

[Paolo10]

i was only showing that Livermoore did a better job on and off the ball than NK and that it was the wrong move to take him off over NK.

No, you didn't show anything, you posted a passing % stat and the number of tackles (which was only 2, not 3)...passing stats as I already mentioned can cover a multitude of sins, Jermaine Jenas is the perfect example. Pretty much consistently the highest in the squad, because he plays it safe all the time...Livermore didn't take too many risks at all and wasn't very progressive with his play, certainly not enough to warrant staying on the pitch at 1-0 down when he was pretty much knackered chasing round the home midfield.

Also Niko made 2 tackles too, but I fail to see your issue with Niko as he came off before Livermore (for Pav), which left us with VdV to drop back with Huddlestone

Going into the next game V city i thought it was wrong Krancjar got the nod over Livermoore who had previously performed better and plays in a role that would compliment Modric better. Nothing more nothing less.

Kranjcar is a better player than Livermore, as are Modric and Huddlestone, it's been shown Modders can do enough of the dirty work and has done so before...but again, we're at home and Livermore had played a lot. Maybe it was the wrong call, but we didn't have many other options. I think we set up to attack them and it just didn't happen and they were very good.

If Modric didn't have sand in his vagina (I already showed you his lack of defensive application during the game), maybe again things might have been different.

You get very uncool don't you. Have you got sand in your vagina?

No sand or vagina here, don't get all ratty and trying to be a funny fucker just because you called me out (Paolo10: starting to make sense) and I fucking told you what's what (again).

 

[tRiKS]

No, you didn't show anything, you posted a passing % stat and the number of tackles (which was only 2, not 3)...passing stats as I already mentioned can cover a multitude of sins, Jermaine Jenas is the perfect example. Pretty much consistently the highest in the squad, because he plays it safe all the time...Livermore didn't take too many risks at all and wasn't very progressive with his play, certainly not enough to warrant staying on the pitch at 1-0 down when he was pretty much knackered chasing round the home midfield.

Also Niko made 2 tackles too, but I fail to see your issue with Niko as he came off before Livermore (for Pav), which left us with VdV to drop back with Huddlestone



Kranjcar is a better player than Livermore, as are Modric and Huddlestone, it's been shown Modders can do enough of the dirty work and has done so before...but again, we're at home and Livermore had played a lot. Maybe it was the wrong call, but we didn't have many other options. I think we set up to attack them and it just didn't happen and they were very good.

If Modric didn't have sand in his vagina (I already showed you his lack of defensive application during the game), maybe again things might have been different.



No sand or vagina here, don't get all ratty and trying to be a funny fucker just because you called me out (Paolo10: starting to make sense) and I fucking told you what's what (again).

but in all instances i'm only arguing the stats belie comment about them being awful or worse than those around them.
Modric was obviously down on performance V city compared to the season before.. to that there was no debate but when you look into the stats they actually show a suprise amount of similarities to pervious performances. You can pretend when you first hypothosied Luka's performance was poor, you knew statistically his passing was identical to the game last season if you like. But if you're honest, when you saw that you were a little suprised it was the same. You imagined after watching the game it would be much worse, right? You'd already decided Luka was shit and uninterested and evil and so any sort of angle to the contrary would be tricky for you to accept.

You're over compensating now by trying to draw me into something else more confrontational when i'm really i'm only defending him not building a case to say he was wonderful. I'm flattered you're spedning this much engery trying to set up a senario where you can defeat me though

Same with Livermoorre and rednapp.. you said he was "owned by utd" your words. He wasn't owned, nor actually or even in context to the game and the rest of spurs. He did better than almost all the spurs team and coinsiding with his departure, the team then dropped another level interms of ball retention, chances and tackles made. His ommission from the CM in favour of pairing NK and LM was a poor choice V city.
Much better to have played him with Luka and then brought on NK after 60mins.

 

[Paolo10]

but in all instances i'm only arguing the stats belie comment about them being awful or worse than those around them.
Modric was obviously down on performance V city compared to the season before.. to that there was no debate but when you look into the stats they actually show a suprise amount of similarities to pervious performances. You can pretend when you first hypothosied Luka's performance was poor, you knew statistically his passing was identical to the game last season if you like. But if you're honest, when you saw that you were a little suprised it was the same. You imagined after watching the game it would be much worse, right? You'd already decided Luka was shit and uninterested and evil and so any sort of angle to the contrary would be tricky for you to accept.

You're over compensating now by trying to draw me into something else more confrontational when i'm really i'm only defending him not building a case to say he was wonderful. I'm flattered you're spedning this much engery trying to set up a senario where you can defeat me though

Same with Livermoorre and rednapp.. you said he was "owned by utd" your words. He wasn't owned, nor actually or even in context to the game and the rest of spurs. He did better than almost all the spurs team and coinsiding with his departure, the team then dropped another level interms of ball retention, chances and tackles made. His ommission from the CM in favour of pairing NK and LM was a poor choice V city.
Much better to have played him with Luka and then brought on NK after 60mins.

The stats belie nothing, they just disguise the facts and don't take into account far too many factors (especially with Modric vs City), you're the one holding them up...and he was distinterested, and the passes weren't the same, they were similarish, but in a different game and don't take much into account at all.

I've already explained the Livermore thing and you're choosing to ignore it, it's like trying to explain things to a child.

You have defeated me, I give up.

 

[Paolo10]

And I didn't say owned, I said he got the run around, which he did, he tired in the second half.

 

[sloth]

You have defeated me, I give up.

If only you really meant that :razz: