Ratings vs Hull

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Dier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Fazio

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Verts

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Davies

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Mason

    Votes: 33 11.3%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 208 71.0%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 13 4.4%
  • Kane

    Votes: 9 3.1%
  • Soldado

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • Paulinho

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Lennon

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Chiriches

    Votes: 9 3.1%

  • Total voters
    293
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
19,268
I agree, full backs are such vital positions nowadays. In most teams they need to be able to defend diligently and attack purposefully.

And in Poch's system they're vital. Not just providing width, but contributing intelligently to the attacking play from those wider areas.

Look at Everton who we're playing this Sunday. Their full backs, in Baines and Coleman, piss all over ours.

Its a position we need to improve on big time.
It's one reason I couldn't believe the scouting in the summer. Davies is a solid enough player, but I just couldn't understand why we weren't looking at a quick overlapping player to play behind the likes of Chadli and give us natural width. The likes of Robertson, who Hull picked up for nothing, and looks a future star, had all the attributes we needed.
 

Bobbins

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I thought we were alright actually.

Bit scrappy in the first half, let ourselves get a bit overwhelmed at times, but we had several shots early on and after the goal and the mad 5 minutes afterwards, we worked our way back into the game.

Second half, looked like the Spurs vs Hull game you'd expect. We were far superior, even before the sending off, and actually played some nice stuff. After the red card, there was only going to be one result.

If we play like we did in the second half for the rest of the season we'll do alright.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
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I think Mason will smooth any rough edges he has once he has fully functioning players around him. He's had to fill in here and be here and be there because the A3 is not functioning properly and we need someone to drive our game.

He's had to deal with a lot of disjointed, dysfunctional play around him and has coped amazingly well for just coming into the team and virtually hitting the ground running.

He's our MVP and has been since he started playing imo. Without him our game - what little 'game' we have right now - would fall apart.

Agree with the rest but I've got untold time for Mason and I think we'll see an even more improved player when he's got a better framework around him, so I'm not too concerned about any shortfalls he has atm.

FBs, ultimately, is what will really get our game going the way poch wants though, as you mentioned.

I like Mason. I want to make this abundantly clear. I like his willingness to show for the ball and keep it moving. I like that he's got some fire in his belly. I like that he'll put his foot in. You say he will smooth out rough edges when those around him improve, right now he is as much part of the problem as he is a solution.

This is why I asked if you watched that Southampton game last night ? They don't have better players than us. If you go back and watch our game against them this will conform that. Capoue outplayed Schniederlin that day. Capoue was given MOTM on here with 106 votes. Mason was quietly competent but looking back that was probably his best performance for us as he wasn't tearing about chasing the ball everywhere and that allowed Capoue to do the thing that Schniederlin does with Wanyama next to him. And I'm pretty sure they were up against a CM3 that day.

This is what Southampton do so well, they work as a group in much better harmony. No one is careering around like a headless chicken. They all know their roles and go about their functions efficiently.

We have too many mavericks right now, and unfortunately Mason is one them. And like some of the others, who I also think have good/great qualities (like Lamela, Eriksen, Adebayor, Chadli etc) he needs to learn to be part of a coherent collective rather than an outstanding individual.

This is what I have been saying for a few weeks. I think Capoue has carried the can for our disorganised malaise and inability to function as a coherent group, and Mason, as much as he does good, is part of that problem, not part of the solution, and that is why performances and results have been erratic. And why Southampton are achieving what they are. They play as a team, we are still playing as individuals. (Maybe this is part of the Sherwood legacy, having undone the collective ethos that AVB had installed)

I think Mason has the potential to be a very good player, I always have, but he has to learn the discipline and diligence involved in playing in a CM2, it's not all about chasing personal glory and the adulation of the fans. It's about boring stuff, positional awareness and how you related to what's going on around you. How you cover for full backs that attack, how you pivot with your CM2 partner. How you shield your defence.

In Capoue, Mason, Bentaleb, Veljkovic, Stambouli we have a bunch of talented CM's with a great range of skills. I think Mason is more tenacious than Capoue, but Capoue reads the game better. I think Bentaleb has the potential to be more complete than the pair of them. That kid plays with a maturity that is staggering for 19yo.

But it won't matter which combination he chooses if the CM2 pair don't work in tandem and those around them don't work for the team instead of themselves.

And that, even more than competent full backs and a settled back four, is why Southampton are above us. They play as a team.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
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I really like Mason, but you not think Cabaye would offer that bit more vision etc from those positions in the centre?
I keep repeating myself here MrP, but as much as I like Cabaye, I think we have players here who can be as good as him, or at least damn close. Close enough not spend the exorbitant fee. Same with Schniederlin.

We just need the coach to get them doing things the right way. The talent and footballing stuff is there, it's just getting players to think about the game differently.

Having read MS's account of his work with Pochettino I have confidence this can be done with the CM's we have. But he needs to get the other things right as well. Settled back 4. Full backs that provide proper width so their is variation to our attacking play. And most importantly everyone working for the collective, not doing their own fucking thing.
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
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I like Mason. I want to make this abundantly clear. I like his willingness to show for the ball and keep it moving. I like that he's got some fire in his belly. I like that he'll put his foot in. You say he will smooth out rough edges when those around him improve, right now he is as much part of the problem as he is a solution.

This is why I asked if you watched that Southampton game last night ? They don't have better players than us. If you go back and watch our game against them this will conform that. Capoue outplayed Schniederlin that day. Capoue was given MOTM on here with 106 votes. Mason was quietly competent but looking back that was probably his best performance for us as he wasn't tearing about chasing the ball everywhere and that allowed Capoue to do the thing that Schniederlin does with Wanyama next to him. And I'm pretty sure they were up against a CM3 that day.

This is what Southampton do so well, they work as a group in much better harmony. No one is careering around like a headless chicken. They all know their roles and go about their functions efficiently.

We have too many mavericks right now, and unfortunately Mason is one them. And like some of the others, who I also think have good/great qualities (like Lamela, Eriksen, Adebayor, Chadli etc) he needs to learn to be part of a coherent collective rather than an outstanding individual.

This is what I have been saying for a few weeks. I think Capoue has carried the can for our disorganised malaise and inability to function as a coherent group, and Mason, as much as he does good, is part of that problem, not part of the solution, and that is why performances and results have been erratic. And why Southampton are achieving what they are. They play as a team, we are still playing as individuals. (Maybe this is part of the Sherwood legacy, having undone the collective ethos that AVB had installed)

I think Mason has the potential to be a very good player, I always have, but he has to learn the discipline and diligence involved in playing in a CM2, it's not all about chasing personal glory and the adulation of the fans. It's about boring stuff, positional awareness and how you related to what's going on around you. How you cover for full backs that attack, how you pivot with your CM2 partner. How you shield your defence.

In Capoue, Mason, Bentaleb, Veljkovic, Stambouli we have a bunch of talented CM's with a great range of skills. I think Mason is more tenacious than Capoue, but Capoue reads the game better. I think Bentaleb has the potential to be more complete than the pair of them. That kid plays with a maturity that is staggering for 19yo.

But it won't matter which combination he chooses if the CM2 pair don't work in tandem and those around them don't work for the team instead of themselves.

And that, even more than competent full backs and a settled back four, is why Southampton are above us. They play as a team.
Answered most of that in my post that it's responding to.

Think we're, generally, on the same page overall.

GG getting your bentaleb 'big-up' in btw...never saw that coming.:D
 

Borks

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Having re-read your post I've removed the rating as I generally agree but I dislike the crazy Eriksen love-in and he was definitely a 7.5 max and not a 9 IMO. I'm probably starting to develop a dislike for the bloke because I've never seen anyone so fearful of getting stuck in as he is and the worst thing is he can hit free kicks like that, yet the other 95% go into to wall or are passed short for no reason (don't get me started on his corners either).

This is a guy with great talent but we're playing a system that requires the spirit of a Lamela or the tracking back of a Lennon and Eriksen has just not offered this at his time at Spurs. He looked great in a free role last season but offered no support to Rose when on the left and we suffer as a result. I'm not sure on how you get the best out of a player like that but that's why I'm not manager, however, I just think we need to be careful in putting too much importance on attacking flair when we're quite clearly struggling at the back.

As others have said, I don't think Chadli/Lamela/Eriksen can play as a 3, it has to be Chadli, one of Eriksen/Lamela and a winger to find the correct balance between pace/width and goalscoring ability. As we saw on Sunday, Eriksen performs best when he's given the space in the middle (vs 10 men) but I'm yet to see it under Poch's tactics vs 11 men so I'm sceptical as to how effective he will be this season.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Having re-read your post I've removed the rating as I generally agree but I dislike the crazy Eriksen love-in and he was definitely a 7.5 max and not a 9 IMO. I'm probably starting to develop a dislike for the bloke because I've never seen anyone so fearful of getting stuck in as he is and the worst thing is he can hit free kicks like that, yet the other 95% go into to wall or are passed short for no reason (don't get me started on his corners either).

This is a guy with great talent but we're playing a system that requires the spirit of a Lamela or the tracking back of a Lennon and Eriksen has just not offered this at his time at Spurs. He looked great in a free role last season but offered no support to Rose when on the left and we suffer as a result. I'm not sure on how you get the best out of a player like that but that's why I'm not manager, however, I just think we need to be careful in putting too much importance on attacking flair when we're quite clearly struggling at the back.

As others have said, I don't think Chadli/Lamela/Eriksen can play as a 3, it has to be Chadli, one of Eriksen/Lamela and a winger to find the correct balance between pace/width and goalscoring ability. As we saw on Sunday, Eriksen performs best when he's given the space in the middle (vs 10 men) but I'm yet to see it under Poch's tactics vs 11 men so I'm sceptical as to how effective he will be this season.

If I may interject here, although I'm sure 19 is penning his repost as we speak, I share your dislike of players who do not want to engage the enemy, but I am always prepared to cut a little slack if that player is contributing over and above offensively. Days like Sunday when Eriksen is not only creating and scoring our two goals but is also seeing the ball 70+ times, can be traded against his less than stoic defensive work.

If he'd had a quiet or insipid game and bottled it and not worked I think the full force of criticism is due and fair, and there have been occasions when that's been the case with Eriksen, but simple fact is, like Bale before him, who was also a shirker when it came to his defensive duties, he's currently our most creative player and even on a bad day when he's not scoring or assisting will still see more ball than the likes of Bale did, or Keane (massive bottler), Defoe, Lennon, Chadli, etc

I also think that 3, Chadli, Lamela and Eriksen is the only option right now. Lamela works off the ball so I have no problem putting up with his intermittent productivity, as intermittent is better than non existent (Townsend, Lennon e.g.) Chadli will work off the ball and is scoring goals. Unless we switch to a 433.

The width needs to come from full backs. Not shit wingers.
 

THFCSPURS19

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If I may interject here, although I'm sure 19 is penning his repost as we speak, I share your dislike of players who do not want to engage the enemy, but I am always prepared to cut a little slack if that player is contributing over and above offensively. Days like Sunday when Eriksen is not only creating and scoring our two goals but is also seeing the ball 70+ times, can be traded against his less than stoic defensive work.

If he'd had a quiet or insipid game and bottled it and not worked I think the full force of criticism is due and fair, and there have been occasions when that's been the case with Eriksen, but simple fact is, like Bale before him, who was also a shirker when it came to his defensive duties, he's currently our most creative player and even on a bad day when he's not scoring or assisting will still see more ball than the likes of Bale did, or Keane (massive bottler), Defoe, Lennon, Chadli, etc

I also think that 3, Chadli, Lamela and Eriksen is the only option right now. Lamela works off the ball so I have no problem putting up with his intermittent productivity, as intermittent is better than non existent (Townsend, Lennon e.g.) Chadli will work off the ball and is scoring goals.

The width needs to come from full backs. Not shit wingers.
I completely agree. I don't mind if players aren't that good defensively if they contribute a lot. Players like Messi, Ronaldo and Bale are all lazy but still contribute a lot. I will say, however, that Eriksen was poor in the few games before Hull and his lack of defensive responsibility didn't help.

On the flip side, you have players like Lamela who work hard but things still don't quite come off for him. Ideally, you want a Suarez-esque player in your team- someone that can work hard and be amazing.
 

Borks

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If I may interject here, although I'm sure 19 is penning his repost as we speak, I share your dislike of players who do not want to engage the enemy, but I am always prepared to cut a little slack if that player is contributing over and above offensively. Days like Sunday when Eriksen is not only creating and scoring our two goals but is also seeing the ball 70+ times, can be traded against his less than stoic defensive work.

If he'd had a quiet or insipid game and bottled it and not worked I think the full force of criticism is due and fair, and there have been occasions when that's been the case with Eriksen, but simple fact is, like Bale before him, who was also a shirker when it came to his defensive duties, he's currently our most creative player and even on a bad day when he's not scoring or assisting will still see more ball than the likes of Bale did, or Keane (massive bottler), Defoe, Lennon, Chadli, etc

I also think that 3, Chadli, Lamela and Eriksen is the only option right now. Lamela works off the ball so I have no problem putting up with his intermittent productivity, as intermittent is better than non existent (Townsend, Lennon e.g.) Chadli will work off the ball and is scoring goals. Unless we switch to a 433.

The width needs to come from full backs. Not shit wingers.
I don't disagree that the AM3 may be our only option right now but I don't think it's one for the future. I also agree with the intermittent point but unless you have a solid defensive unit around a player like Eriksen/Bale/whoever then you will struggle. I think Eriksen would work well in front of a Bentaleb-Stamouli DM2 but as Mason likes to get around a lot I believe it's important to have the 3 central midfielders circulating and able to cover for each other.

I have no doubt that if we can get Eriksen in the right formation with the right players and a bit mentally tougher that he will transform into an exceptional player, but I believe he's very overrated at present.
 
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I don't disagree that the AM3 may be our only option right now but I don't think it's one for the future. I also agree with the intermittent point but unless you have a solid defensive unit around a player like Eriksen/Bale/whoever then you will struggle. I think Eriksen would work well in front of a Bentaleb-Stamouli DM2 but as Mason likes to get around a lot I believe it's important to have the 3 central midfielders circulating and able to cover for each other.

I have no doubt that if we can get Eriksen in the right formation with the right players and a bit mentally tougher that he will transform into an exceptional player, but I believe he's very overrated at present.

I agree with most of that. I think I said something similar earlier in this thread or in another thread. We need to get everyone else at least singing off the same hymn sheet (and IMO that still doesn't excuse Eriksen from at least pressing lightly) and then you can just about afford Eriksen's reticence as long as he's doing his creative thing and seeing plenty of ball.
 

Mr Pink

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In AVB's first season Bale had a very sound defensive structure around him. The Sandro'/Dembele axis was extremely solid.

So Bale shirking defensive duties really didn't matter that much. He was the free spirit, our match winner and he had a very solid platform to work from.

Eriksen is totally similar in terms of shirking defensive work, and I totally agree with BC that when his offensive contribution is significant as it was on Sunday you can overlook the former.

The difference is though that Eriksen, at the moment anyway, doesn't have the luxury of what Bale had, under AVB certainly, - a far more resolute unit around him.
 

mpickard2087

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In AVB's first season Bale had a very sound defensive structure around him. The Sandro'/Dembele axis was extremely solid.

So Bale shirking defensive duties really didn't matter that much. He was the free spirit, our match winner and he had a very solid platform to work from.

Eriksen is totally similar in terms of shirking defensive work, and I totally agree with BC that when his offensive contribution is significant as it was on Sunday you can overlook the former.

The difference is though that Eriksen, at the moment anyway, doesn't have the luxury of what Bale had, under AVB certainly, - a far more resolute unit around him.
I wouldn't say that. Bale in his latter days at the club didn't bother tracking back at all, he just stayed up field looking to counter. Eriksen will get back in behind the ball or at least in the same area as his man... He just isn't very good applying pressure to the guy in possession, he can be strolled past with the minimum of ease. He does the work to get himself back into the right area, its about him finding a bit more tenacity and resistance in my opinion.
 

Mr Pink

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I wouldn't say that. Bale in his latter days at the club didn't bother tracking back at all, he just stayed up field looking to counter. Eriksen will get back in behind the ball or at least in the same area as his man... He just isn't very good applying pressure to the guy in possession, he can be strolled past with the minimum of ease. He does the work to get himself back into the right area, its about him finding a bit more tenacity and resistance in my opinion.
Yeah, I was coming more from the point of view of applying some pressure. In fact I would go further than that, he actually withdraws from certain challenges, hence people saying he's bottling things. Bale did that as well sometimes but at least he got involved in some tussles for the ball..

I rarely see Eriksen involved in any tussles at all.
 
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Yeah, I was coming more from the point of view of applying some pressure. In fact I would go further than that, he actually withdraws from certain challenges, hence people saying he's bottling things. Bale did that as well sometimes but at least he got involved in some tussles for the ball..

I rarely see Eriksen involved in any tussles at all.
To be honest i don't see why Eriksen has to get involved in tussles at all.

He is arguably our best player, and certainly our most creative.

Within Pochs system the two central midfield players have the onus on them to do the dirty work and turnover possession. They need to then feed the ball quickly to the front 3, where the onus is on them to create.

I think the key is to find the right balance in centre midfield, a solid base that a previous poster mentioned. This will allow Eriksen to do what he does best rather than getting caught up in tussles he is never going to win and to be frank should not be involved in.

Mason is evidently the best qualified central midfield player within a Poch system, where he has the tenacity to win the ball back and also having the ability to move the ball forward quickly and efficiently.

We need to find a partner for him who has the same attributes. I have not seen enough of Stambouli to say he is the answer but i have seen enough of Capoue to say he isnt the answer.
 

HoltbiusMac

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To be honest i don't see why Eriksen has to get involved in tussles at all.

He is arguably our best player, and certainly our most creative.

Within Pochs system the two central midfield players have the onus on them to do the dirty work and turnover possession. They need to then feed the ball quickly to the front 3, where the onus is on them to create.

I think the key is to find the right balance in centre midfield, a solid base that a previous poster mentioned. This will allow Eriksen to do what he does best rather than getting caught up in tussles he is never going to win and to be frank should not be involved in.

Mason is evidently the best qualified central midfield player within a Poch system, where he has the tenacity to win the ball back and also having the ability to move the ball forward quickly and efficiently.

We need to find a partner for him who has the same attributes. I have not seen enough of Stambouli to say he is the answer but i have seen enough of Capoue to say he isnt the answer.
Its about defending as a unit but also about high pressing being a form of attacking too. Eriksen winning the ball high up at Arsenal is a great example of this. I don't think anybody is asking he becomes Scott Parker but he's got to do more work most games. Coutinho is another player a bit like this, when Liverpool were good he was pressing high and looking for the ball, when they're shit he does the opposite.

If we want to aim towards Pochettino's Southampton (but better because we in theory at least have more talented players) then everyone needs to work. Eriksen will eventually though, he's not a shirker by nature IMO just by how he's used to playing.
 

Bulletspur

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Thread starter #138
@cliff jones I did the ratings sometime after the game because no one had bothered. I could not make any comments or ratings as I had not seen the game and said as much, and you spammed me?! Would you have preferred if I had made it up?
 

Mr Pink

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To be honest i don't see why Eriksen has to get involved in tussles at all.

He is arguably our best player, and certainly our most creative.

Within Pochs system the two central midfield players have the onus on them to do the dirty work and turnover possession. They need to then feed the ball quickly to the front 3, where the onus is on them to create.

I think the key is to find the right balance in centre midfield, a solid base that a previous poster mentioned. This will allow Eriksen to do what he does best rather than getting caught up in tussles he is never going to win and to be frank should not be involved in.

Mason is evidently the best qualified central midfield player within a Poch system, where he has the tenacity to win the ball back and also having the ability to move the ball forward quickly and efficiently.

We need to find a partner for him who has the same attributes. I have not seen enough of Stambouli to say he is the answer but i have seen enough of Capoue to say he isnt the answer.
With that sort of mentality we'll always be losers.

You think Oscar and Willian et al don't work hard off the ball? Bloody right they do.

Everybody needs to work hard off the ball.
 

parklane1

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May 4, 2012
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4,391
With that sort of mentality we'll always be losers.

You think Oscar and Willian et al don't work hard off the ball? Bloody right they do.

Everybody needs to work hard off the ball.
Indeed, one of the reasons Jose got rid of Mata is because he would not do the work off the ball.
 
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