Ratings vs Watford

[Bus-Conductor]

I liked the fact that Poch showed tactical flexibility, although it had the feeling of a formula by him rather than anything more creative; if team A is at home and plays two up with two in CM, then team B should play three at the back.

For me though the experiment didn't really work. Yes we kind of neutralised Watford's main threat restricting their chances, but failing ultimately to restrict them scoring as our rookie CB got left one on one in the box with their strongest player (here is a question to debate: If we had played with our usual two CBs and thus either Alderwereild or Vertonghen had been the one defending the one on one, would Ighalo have slipped his man and scored in the same way?).

In return for this defensive stability, we played with more width but seemed to sacrifice some of our central midfield solidity, creativity and vertical threat; we did of course score one goal typical of our vertical play in recent matches, but it felt like almost the only break we had like that through the whole match. Anyway, for me the experiment meant the team as a whole was less of a balance between threat and defence. That said the truth is we'll never know what would have happened if we'd ignored the threat of Deeney and Ighalo and stuck to our familiar game-plan, perhaps that single weapon of their's would have been enough to nullify our system?

Other factors to comment on are team selection, tiredness and the pitch.

In terms of the side chosen on the day, obviously Tom Carrol has been putting a shift in in training, but I would have gone for Bentaleb in this formation (I'm beginning to wonder if Bentaleb has got up Poch's nose somehow? There were rumours about his attitude to a new contract, then he took himself off to play for Algeria when he was just back from injury and ended up injured again, is there a hint of the billy big bollocks about him I wonder?), and if not Bentaleb then Mason. Carrol is a strange one; a lovely little player on his day, but is he a luxury? He's just not dynamic enough for me, not a player you'd turn to when the chips were down in the heat of a battle. I guess there could be a place for him in the AM3, in place of Eriksen for example, but not in a CM2. Twice he's started there in the PL now and both times the team's lost control as the match has gone on.

I thought we clearly tired at that was expressed as much in the number of miss hit passes as a physical slowdown. You could argue that it's the same for both sides, but we in particular rely on a high energy relentless press approach, and when we can't do it for 90 the side suddenly begins to look less than the sum of its parts again. This is also worrying for later in the season, and is perhaps the Achilles heel of this Poch/Biesla style of play. The pitch also contributed both to heavy legs and to poor passing, the ball noticeably getting held up at times in grass which looked almost shaggy.

For the poll I can't rate anyone motm, individually the players seemed pretty beige to me, perhaps Trippier should get it for being the one player who played slightly above what we'd come to expect for him? But I'm going for no vote.

Above all though we should be extremely happy that despite all of the niggly worries we got three points away to the PL's form team, get something against Everton and we're in a good position heading into a sequence of very winnable matches up to City on February 10th.

I think the tactics were actually very good, I just think, as has been the case often with Poch I think he just got the individual components within the system slightly wrong (and he is not alone, higher profile, more experienced managers than him are doing this every week, so I'm not saying Poch is particularly inept above the norm in this respect) but on the other hand we did control the game pretty well, didn't allow them to get a head of steam - until Poch's poor substitution - which I've seen them do to teams like Liverpool, and we ultimately ground out a win at a place where grinding out a win is probably the best you can hope for - I haven't seen anyone go to watford and out pretty them.

I like Carroll but he's a bit lightweight and away at Watford (up against what is effectively a 4 man CM with Capoue and Watson in the centre of it) in a CM2 next to Dembele (another leftie who dawdles a bit) in an experimental new formation when we have options like Mason (and Bentaleb??) available didn't seem like a clever recipe.

And the subs were tactically befuddling - we ended the game in some kind of bizarre 316 formation with Eriksen in CM virtually on his own and got very lucky as the game was turned into a farcical lottery by Pochettino's subs. Despite being a man up Poch effectively surrendered the midfield to Watford in a game of end to end ping pong on a 100 metre table.

 

[Bulletspur]

TBF, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the Ighalo goal, he was just stronger than Dier.

Agreed. I actually admired its execution

 

[TH1239]

All that matters is that we won the match. At this stage of the season, we've seen enough quality performances to know what this squad can do, so results are all I'm focusing on moving forward. I said it a few weeks ago leading into the West Brom match, but there is an 11 game stretch that we are in the midst of that will define our season. I also have said repeatedly in recent weeks that we are 100% title contenders if Pochettino's core of 13-14 players can also stay reasonably fit, and we can find a bit of striker cover in January.

I thought Lamela, again, was excellent. I really believe the way forward with us is with him on the right, Eriksen through the middle and Son on the left, where he can cut in on his right foot. Those three have the best blend of attacking and pressing ability to really help us impose our will in matches. They're all 23 years old and were teenage prodigies, so there's a lot of similarities in their career paths (all three at moderately big clubs before coming to Spurs where they shined).

I have been highly critical of Trippier, and think Walker is still the far superior defender, but he did well today considering the conditions. That gives me more confidence in him playing in Cup matches moving forward. I thought that was Toby's worst game of the season, arguably, which wasn't even that bad by a regular defender's standards. His passing was errant when playing out of the back. I thought Jan did well, and has been a real unsung hero this season with so many others grabbing the spotlight. We shouldn't take him for granted. There aren't many LCBs in the world better than him.

Top marks to Heung Min Son for taking his role off the bench in stride and coming in and winning the match. You have to remember that he is a player who is used to starting matches for club and country. He didn't leave a very comfortable position at Leverkusen to come be a bit part player at Spurs, so I was a bit worried his confidence would start to wane a bit if he was only getting a few minutes in every game. I also think he is a FAR superior player, as are Eriksen and Lamela, when he starts matches. It's hard for these guys to just hit the patch and show their best in a limited timeframe. They need some time to warm up, get rhythm, and then you typically see their best as the other team tires. I really think the Son/Eriksen/Lamela triumvirate with Dembele/Dier/Alli all routinely rotating behind them based on the opposition is our path to a top 3 finish and a title push.

All in all, thrilled with where we are at the moment.

 

[walworthyid]

Sure. But Ledley never got played like that by Drogba, to put it in perspective. The 3 back there were bullied by Ighalo/Deeney.

No but I can certainly remember ledley being given the run around by Bellamy and huckerby to name a couple. Deeney was extremely quiet today and ighalo got a fortunate goal and a half chance in 90 minutes. I don't think they were bullied at all. In fact, we had them at arm's length for all but the last 15 minutes.

 

[Eric_s]

From the official site

According to the Lamela "truther", after painstaking research, Lamela only gets voted MOTM on SC. Who are the 14000 SC members that voted?

 

[steve]

I think the tactics were actually very good, I just think, as has been the case often with Poch I think he just got the individual components within the system slightly wrong (and he is not alone, higher profile, more experienced managers than him are doing this every week, so I'm not saying Poch is particularly inept above the norm in this respect) but on the other hand we did control the game pretty well, didn't allow them to get a head of steam - until Poch's poor substitution - which I've seen them do to teams like Liverpool, and we ultimately ground out a win at a place where grinding out a win is probably the best you can hope for - I haven't seen anyone go to watford and out pretty them.

I like Carroll but he's a bit lightweight and away at Watford (up against what is effectively a 4 man CM with Capoue and Watson in the centre of it) in a CM2 next to Dembele (another leftie who dawdles a bit) in an experimental new formation when we have options like Mason (and Bentaleb??) available didn't seem like a clever recipe.

And the subs were tactically befuddling - we ended the game in some kind of bizarre 316 formation with Eriksen in CM virtually on his own and got very lucky as the game was turned into a farcical lottery by Pochettino's subs. Despite being a man up Poch effectively surrendered the midfield to Watford in a game of end to end ping pong on a 100 metre table.

Agree with this and saved me quoting Sloth's bit about Poch's tactics which seemed as lazy as what he was accusing Poch of. We controlled this game and were comfortably the better side until the sending off which befuddled both Poch and the players - as you say the subs and players for these tactics were wrong and the players became very careful and deliberate in their passing which just slowed us down and made it easy for Watford to shell it and soak it up. It was hugely frustrating to watch which has perhaps led to plenty on here being critical but Watford were the form team who had hammered Liverpool recently and we beat them and limited them to one shot on target the whole game. Even that had an element of fortune about it.

No but I can certainly remember ledley being given the run around by Bellamy and huckerby to name a couple. Deeney was extremely quiet today and ighalo got a fortunate goal and a half chance in 90 minutes. I don't think they were bullied at all. In fact, we had them at arm's length for all but the last 15 minutes.

Agree with this, as above they had one shot on target. I think people are massively over reacting to the performance against 10 which admittedly was mostly piss poor but it's out in the open now and gives Poch something to work with. He's learning and so are the players and to pick up points along the way is a massive bonus.

I thought Kane worked his balls off and did some really good stuff so he gets my MOTM vote. That was also Trippier's best game in a Spurs shirt which is a bonus and credit must go to Poch for getting that selection right for this game.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

And the subs were tactically befuddling - we ended the game in some kind of bizarre 316 formation with Eriksen in CM virtually on his own and got very lucky as the game was turned into a farcical lottery by Pochettino's subs. Despite being a man up Poch effectively surrendered the midfield to Watford in a game of end to end ping pong on a 100 metre table.

I think that's a trifle harsh on Pochettino, @Bus-Conductor. The head tennis began in earnest with a large slice of help from LLoris, who effectively lost his head. He played at least two passes that put us in all sorts of trouble, and his flapping under the high ball and dodgy punched clearances evoked memories of the gurning gobshite down the under end. We began queuing up to see who could contribute the best botched clearance and struggled to compete for second balls.

We completely dominated them in the second half, only to be let down by poor final balls-Lamela and Rose being particularly culpable. We became a little bit static before their aerial bombardment began but it was not easy to play in tight spaces on such a shitty surface.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We controlled this game and were comfortably the better side until the sending off which befuddled both Poch and the players - as you say the subs and players for these tactics were wrong and the players became very careful and deliberate in their passing which just slowed us down and made it easy for Watford to shell it and soak it up. It was hugely frustrating to watch which has perhaps led to plenty on here being critical but Watford were the form team who had hammered Liverpool recently and we beat them and limited them to one shot on target the whole game. Even that had an element of fortune about it.

I don't always think the opposition going down to ten men helps, unless the ten men are already losing and they have to try and get out and get something from the game. All they often do is dig in, and if anything it alters their mentality to be even more resolute. I think it's common to then see the team with the man advantage look like they are treading water with the ball, largely because they are now just playing a game of attack v defence. It often becomes a game of patience.

I think that's a trifle harsh on Pochettino, @Bus-Conductor. The head tennis began in earnest with a large slice of help from LLoris, who effectively lost his head. He played at least two passes that put us in all sorts of trouble, and his flapping under the high ball and dodgy punched clearances evoked memories of the gurning gobshite down the under end. We began queuing up to see who could contribute the best botched clearance and struggled to compete for second balls.

We completely dominated them in the second half, only to be let down by poor final balls-Lamela and Rose being particularly culpable. We became a little bit static before their aerial bombardment began but it was not easy to play in tight spaces on such a shitty surface.

I think, not for the first time, his tactical subs were terrible. Sure bring Son on, but why not just take Dier off, Alderweireld and Vertonghen shouldn't have too much to do as long as we keep control of the ball, and I would have also had Alli off for Mason, a player who would have helped us retain the ball, can also pass forwards and get forwards but is also tenacious and will get a foot in.

We ended up with no recognised central midfielder on the pitch, and virtually no midfield, and as a consequence completely lost control of the game. That last 10 minutes was horrible to watch.

I don't think Lloris makes any more world class saves than Gomes, and I think his mistakes probably cost us as many goals as Gomes's did a season, they just lacked the slapstick comedy value of Gomes's.

 

[mpickard2087]

I don't think the shape became a problem, after the sending off Dier pushed up into midfield almost immediately and was alongside Eriksen. We ended up back in a 4-2-3-1 that looked extremely attacking with Rose and especially Trippier playing very high up the pitch.

It was the balance that was wrong though. Lamela, Son, Eriksen and even Kane wanted to come short and get the ball to feet which didn't really ask any questions of a Watford side that had retreated into its shell and put up the brick wall. What we really needed was to move the ball quicker, switch the play when it was on (Trippier was in acres of really good space numerous times) and play up against their backline and work the ball into the front. Everything was in front of them at slow tempo.

Their spell of pressure at the end was more down to daft fouls and even dafter corners conceded than any tactical failings, in my opinion.

 

[ShaunL84]

Anyone know what happened with the corner that Lloris saved

How on earth did that nearly go in? Did we not have anybody on the near post or did Hugo get his angles wrong...

 

[mpickard2087]

Anyone know what happened with the corner that Lloris saved

How on earth did that nearly go in? Did we not have anybody on the near post or did Hugo get his angles wrong...

Pretty sure he swung one right under the crossbar with the previous corner, that Hugo had to punch clear. So there had been a warning that we apparently didn't heed...

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Playing with ten men is not so bad. Teams usually go 4 4 1 and therefore maintain a workable shape with lots of closing down.

What should happen is the eleven side team throws in lots of overlapping to get behind the ten men.

 

[roslau]

I don't understand why Alli got lots of sticks here. He worked very hard and won many balls even in 50-50. Did a fantastic job defensively. He can read the game well and understand Kane and Lamela to give recent good forms of Spurs.

Carroll may not be an ideal guy as CM as he got outmuscled too many times, however he used the ball quite well and it's down to Poch to think how to use him wisely

 

[cozzo]

I don't think Lloris makes any more world class saves than Gomes, and I think his mistakes probably cost us as many goals as Gomes's did a season, they just lacked the slapstick comedy value of Gomes's

Blasphemy!!!

 

[steve]

I don't always think the opposition going down to ten men helps, unless the ten men are already losing and they have to try and get out and get something from the game. All they often do is dig in, and if anything it alters their mentality to be even more resolute. I think it's common to then see the team with the man advantage look like they are treading water with the ball, largely because they are now just playing a game of attack v defence. It often becomes a game of patience.

I understand all that perfectly regarding 10 men but we really really laboured to create anything even remotely close to being a half chance never mind a decent chance. It clearly needs to be worked on as they either were too careful (and thus too slow moving the ball) or too impatient and made the wrong choices. We need to be smarter around the box and i defo agree more patient which creates a pressure that almost makes it inevitable that a team will score - the best sides have always been very good at this and it's something we need to get better at. As you yourself have said in the past to some extent, if we were smarter around the oppo's box we'd be much better off this season - a fit Silva in this side would make all the difference.

Looking back at the chance we scored from it was 2 one touch passes that gave Toby and Trippier the space to get the cross in from.

 

[Ironskullll]

No but I can certainly remember ledley being given the run around by Bellamy and huckerby to name a couple. Deeney was extremely quiet today and ighalo got a fortunate goal and a half chance in 90 minutes. I don't think they were bullied at all. In fact, we had them at arm's length for all but the last 15 minutes.

Ah you just reminded me of a great tackle by Ledley on (I think) Huckerby against Nartch about ten years ago in the Park lane/ West Stand corner of the pitch. Very very similar to his tackle on Robben. I think it was a midweek game but have never been able to find any youtube video of it.