Reserves Discussion

[eddiebailey]

Sounds like Bostock is a goer - from Fans FC

Warnock said, "I'm so disappointed about the whole Bostock situation. I wasn't aware that it was close to going through until I got on the coach after the game at Bristol City. I've heard that he has left because a member of my staff has allegedly told him that he wouldn't be able to play in my system - it's just a total excuse.

"I just wish he had come up to me and said: 'Neil, we've weighed up our options and decided to go to Spurs - I would have accepted that. But to say that one of my members of staff has told him that he wouldn't fit in with my style of play is absolute garbage. He has gone for the money - simple.

"I missed out on Ruben Zadkovich because I thought he would hinder Bostock's progress and now he does this. I was the one who first gave him a chance in the first team - this really does feel like a kick in the teeth."

You have to wonder if when agents give advice to kids like Bostock they are taking a long term view or just making a quick buck. Most lads never make the grade, so take the money when its offered. Bostock will probably rot in our reserves for a few of years and then get released; whereas had he stayed at Palace he would have been fast tracked into the first team, giving him a platform to move onto greater things. It is no coincidence that the most successful Spurs youth product of recent years is Peter Crouch, who had the sense to turn down a contract at Spurs and followed Gerry back to QPR.

 

[matjcole]

Good point eddie, I guess O'hara is the only product to get a long stint for a while.

Marney had a couple of run outs, dervitte played the one game in the cup but apart from that not many of the boys get near the team.

Maybe next year will be different being able to have 7 subs.... 3 nil bring on a youth to give him a chance.

 

[yanno]

You have to wonder if when agents give advice to kids like Bostock they are taking a long term view or just making a quick buck. Most lads never make the grade, so take the money when its offered. Bostock will probably rot in our reserves for a few of years and then get released; whereas had he stayed at Palace he would have been fast tracked into the first team, giving him a platform to move onto greater things. It is no coincidence that the most successful Spurs youth product of recent years is Peter Crouch, who had the sense to turn down a contract at Spurs and followed Gerry back to QPR.

Surely the key is getting invaluable competitive experience for our best young players, at the highest possible level, by loaning them out. There's no reason why we couldn't have signed Crouch up to a five-year contract, and then loaned him out for the first two years: to QPR and then Portsmouth. Then we could have made a decision on whether he was good enough to be part of our first team squad. We didn't have to sell him to QPR for a few quid.

This season, we've seen zero evidence of progress from Taarabt. Just the odd frustrating cameo for both the reserves and as a first team substitute. Perhaps our coaches are doing great work with him on the training ground. But I can't help thinking both the club and young Adel would have been better served in loaning him out to a club where he'd have made 30-40 competitive appearances.

If we do sign Bostock, I hope we have a proper 5-year plan for developing him - and the likes of Parrett, Mason, Townsend, Adam Smith etc, who are all England U17 internationals.

 

[michaelden]

It's a hard choice, loan out your youth to a league where they're less protected and have worse facilities and coaching or let them play reserve games and maybe get a few games in the CC or as a sub but atleast they are learning your style of football.

 

[nickspurs]

It's a hard choice, loan out your youth to a league where they're less protected and have worse facilities and coaching or let them play reserve games and maybe get a few games in the CC or as a sub but atleast they are learning your style of football.

It's a good point. I guess the club like to do it in two stages with youth recruits:
Stage 1: bed them in with our style of football and develop them sufficiently from their current level and then,
Stage 2: loan them out so they get to apply what they've learned in a competitive environment and hopefully build their confidence

I imagine they're still trying to bash into Adel's head the importance of passing to a team-mate before thinking he's ready for stage 2. Just speculation on my part (and quite off-piste to the thread).

 

[joey55]

I think this argument about youth players is exactly why the like of Benitez and Wenger want reserve teams to be able to play in the football league. In general it seems they don't like the loan system, which is understandable, as they probably want players to be playing football that will be represenative of the club, not rough and ready lower division stuff. The fact of the matter is, with the wealth and intense competition between Prem clubs, it's going to be very difficult for youngsters to come through, particuarly at teams towards the top of the league. There is probably someone really obvious, but I can't remember a recent example (last 5 or so years), of a youngster coming through at a top 4 club that has previosuly been loaned out to the lower leagues. If they get loaned out they usually end up leaving ie Bentley and Larsson.

 

[yanno]

If they get loaned out they usually end up leaving ie Bentley and Larsson.

There's no reason why Wenger couldn't have signed Bentley and Larsson up to long contracts and then loaned them out.

I agree that clubs want their youngsters to play the kind of football they'll play for their parent team. But in Spain where teams like Barca B play in competitive lower leagues, the top clubs still loan their best young players out to other La Liga teams (or insert a buy-back option clause). Eg Granero and De La Red on season-long loans to Getafe from Real Madrid.

 

[joey55]

There's no reason why Wenger couldn't have signed Bentley and Larsson up to long contracts and then loaned them out.

I agree that clubs want their youngsters to play the kind of football they'll play for their parent team. But in Spain where teams like Barca B play in competitive lower leagues, the top clubs still loan their best young players out to other La Liga teams (or insert a buy-back option clause). Eg Granero and De La Red on season-long loans to Getafe from Real Madrid.

He wasn't on a season long loan. He was sold, but with an option for Madrid to buy him back. I need to point this out as cheekily I've used him as my non spurs player, in the transfer prediction game thread.

 

[yanno]

He wasn't on a season long loan. He was sold, but with an option for Madrid to buy him back. I need to point this out as cheekily I've used him as my non spurs player, in the transfer prediction game thread.

Indeed, although I did note this with my buyback qualification in the original post. :wink:

I seem to remember one of Frankie's first moves was to sign Mark Yeates up to a five-year contract. He was then given several lengthy loan spells, but by most accounts is only now beginning to play consistently well. Barney was also loaned out several times, but was very unlucky with injury. I do think it's a policy we should persevere with.

 

[soup]

I think this argument about youth players is exactly why the like of Benitez and Wenger want reserve teams to be able to play in the football league. In general it seems they don't like the loan system, which is understandable, as they probably want players to be playing football that will be represenative of the club, not rough and ready lower division stuff. The fact of the matter is, with the wealth and intense competition between Prem clubs, it's going to be very difficult for youngsters to come through, particuarly at teams towards the top of the league. There is probably someone really obvious, but I can't remember a recent example (last 5 or so years), of a youngster coming through at a top 4 club that has previosuly been loaned out to the lower leagues. If they get loaned out they usually end up leaving ie Bentley and Larsson.

I've often wondered to what level premiership reserves would cope in the English league system. Are they worse than Championship? Better than 1st?

I've wondered this because of the 'real game' atmosphere these guys miss out on and if it would all be solved not by entering them into the lower leagues but by playing the games at the real home grounds (no offence Stevenage), and with just more of us turning up to watch. I must admit it'd be a toss-up for me between away at Reading in a nothing game or watching the reserves fight for the reserve title at WHL.

Shame that it could never happen, as I'd assume rightly or wrongly that most EPL fans aren't as interested in thier youth teams as we are. It's a shame though, as if they could make it work it would open up whole new streams of revenue for 'matchdays' the club. A bit like how, these days, international U-21 has become a lot more entertaining to watch than full internationals. Well, in England's case anyway!

Sorry for going off-topic, Ev.

 

[joey55]

Maybe they could set up a European reserve league. That way the standard of football would be far higher and it would actually be interesting. I don't don't know how feasable or commercially viable this is, but it would solve alot of problems. Obviously not the whole of Europe, but if about 28 of the top European sides formed a couple of small leagues with the top 2 in each meeting in a play off situation at the end of the season. Just the Germans, Spannish, Italian and us perhaps. I'd actually rather watch that than Championship football. Games could be shown live on SpursTV.

 

[Sbix]

That is an interesting solution Joey, don't really think clubs are likely to want to stand for the costs that would bring thou.. with traveling and all, what would the attendances be at that kind of matches? How many goes to the current reserve matches?

I don't know about the Spanish solution, don't think it will ever be introduced in Britain as I feel it would undermine the importance of the smaller clubs in the country, say our reserves were great and ended up in the championship? That would ridicule the history and potential of other clubs. And top clubs would end up with all talents, as those not ready for the premiership still could play the clubs style in a division lower or two...

The gap between big and small would grow ever bigger!

 

[Bobishism]

Maybe they could set up a European reserve league. That way the standard of football would be far higher and it would actually be interesting. I don't don't know how feasable or commercially viable this is, but it would solve alot of problems. Obviously not the whole of Europe, but if about 28 of the top European sides formed a couple of small leagues with the top 2 in each meeting in a play off situation at the end of the season. Just the Germans, Spannish, Italian and us perhaps. I'd actually rather watch that than Championship football. Games could be shown live on SpursTV.

It would probably end up overtaking Premiership football.

 

[DC_Boy]

I've never liked the loan system and don't think it's helped us much at all - there's been some successes like the O'Hara loan - though the jury is still out as to how far O'Hara is going to blossom

but when I think of all the years we've had the loan system - the relative success of O'Hara and perhaps one or two more that I can't remember is not much a pay back

You have to wonder what's the point of a reserve team - especially with this current fashion for loans

Also Dervitte got a terrible injury playing reserve football -

I think Barnard got injured playing reserve football too

I don't know what the answer is - but I don't think Spurs have got value for money from their reserve set up over the past ten years - maybe longer

 

[joey55]

That is an interesting solution Joey, don't really think clubs are likely to want to stand for the costs that would bring thou.. with traveling and all, what would the attendances be at that kind of matches? How many goes to the current reserve matches?

I don't know about the Spanish solution, don't think it will ever be introduced in Britain as I feel it would undermine the importance of the smaller clubs in the country, say our reserves were great and ended up in the championship? That would ridicule the history and potential of other clubs. And top clubs would end up with all talents, as those not ready for the premiership still could play the clubs style in a division lower or two...

The gap between big and small would grow ever bigger!

It depends on the European clubs. For the UK clubs it wouldn't be a problem. If we were playing such games and showing them on SpursTV, subscriptions would be much higher. Unlike Prem football, the clubs wouldn't be looking to make any sort of profit, so it would literally be about covering costs, which would just mean more travel expenses and higher insurance. Prem clubs would easily cover that by the interest the game generate on their subscription channels. However, I don't know if the same can be said of the other European leagues.

 

[paulspursman]

the extra subs will be a huge help

realistically 1 young player could be on the bench every game or at least gives ramos the choice without worrying that experience is more vital when there are fewer subs spots available

 

[PT]

The only obvious problem I would envisage with the seven sub scenario is that it wolud usually be the senior subs that would get the nod. That is, unless a rule comes in that maybe says - out of the three subs, one has to be a yoof.

 

[CrazyConrad]

I think this argument about youth players is exactly why the like of Benitez and Wenger want reserve teams to be able to play in the football league. In general it seems they don't like the loan system, which is understandable, as they probably want players to be playing football that will be represenative of the club, not rough and ready lower division stuff. The fact of the matter is, with the wealth and intense competition between Prem clubs, it's going to be very difficult for youngsters to come through, particuarly at teams towards the top of the league. There is probably someone really obvious, but I can't remember a recent example (last 5 or so years), of a youngster coming through at a top 4 club that has previosuly been loaned out to the lower leagues. If they get loaned out they usually end up leaving ie Bentley and Larsson.

In Norway the reserve teams acutally play in the league system. They can get relegated and promoted like the first teams except they can never be higher then 2 divisions lower then the first team. So most of the premier clubs reserve team plays on the third level.

However there is a big downside with this system and that is the "fair play" issues regarding what teams they would play each week. If the reserves would have to travel a long distance for instance they might not have any "first team" players needing match practice etc and just send off the "younger" ones. For short travels there might be more "first team" players etc etc. If there are teams fighting for relegation or promotion and some are involved against a reserve team the outcome might all depend on what team the reserve put on the field. Well you get my point on the fair play issue. Although the distance issue aint the same problem in England as it is in Norway.

 

[Sbix]

It depends on the European clubs. For the UK clubs it wouldn't be a problem. If we were playing such games and showing them on SpursTV, subscriptions would be much higher. Unlike Prem football, the clubs wouldn't be looking to make any sort of profit, so it would literally be about covering costs, which would just mean more travel expenses and higher insurance. Prem clubs would easily cover that by the interest the game generate on their subscription channels. However, I don't know if the same can be said of the other European leagues.

Suppose for the absolute biggest clubs around Europe it wouldn't be a problem either, but the rest of the clubs in our size might hesitate...

Question is thou.. if such a system is introduced doesn't that pave the way for a similar European top league for all the senior sides?

Do we want that? I don't!

 

[joey55]

Suppose for the absolute biggest clubs around Europe it wouldn't be a problem either, but the rest of the clubs in our size might hesitate...

Question is thou.. if such a system is introduced doesn't that pave the way for a similar European top league for all the senior sides?

Do we want that? I don't!

I don't either and I'm not sure the top Prem clubs would. The money available to the Prem clubs is vast and they still have the Euro money aswell. If they were to enter a Eruopean League, I doubt they could generate the kind of money they can from being in both the CL and the Prem.

Rather than a reserve league, maybe a smaller tournaments would be more viable. Perhaps a reserve team competition with the CL set up. Groups of 4, the rounds of 16, 8, 4 and then the final. It would mean less travelling (a maximum of 7 away games), so cost would come down and the logistics would be a lot easier than a season long league format.

I just think the main thing is, it is obvious alot of managers aren't fond of the loan system and we don't have the opportunity to enter our reserves at lower levels of the league system, so somehting has to change so that young players can get to play competitive football at a decent level the generates some interest and therefore actually matters.