Reserves Discussion

[Sbix]

I don't either and I'm not sure the top Prem clubs would. The money available to the Prem clubs is vast and they still have the Euro money aswell. If they were to enter a Eruopean League, I doubt they could generate the kind of money they can from being in both the CL and the Prem.

Rather than a reserve league, maybe a smaller tournaments would be more viable. Perhaps a reserve team competition with the CL set up. Groups of 4, the rounds of 16, 8, 4 and then the final. It would mean less travelling (a maximum of 7 away games), so cost would come down and the logistics would be a lot easier than a season long league format.

I just think the main thing is, it is obvious alot of managers aren't fond of the loan system and we don't have the opportunity to enter our reserves at lower levels of the league system, so somehting has to change so that young players can get to play competitive football at a decent level the generates some interest and therefore actually matters.

The CL set up idea is not bad, problem thou would be which teams play there? The reserves of the teams that qualify for CL? That would only mean improvement for the top teams reserves.. what about the smaller clubs again.. And a tournament big enough for all reserves teams is just too big to be a viable option.

Agree completely that the system need to change somehow, especially in a way so that it creates a opportunity for younger players to develop. It's a difficult question and do doubt that the FA will make the right decision anytime soon.. :razz:

 

[joey55]

The CL set up idea is not bad, problem thou would be which teams play there? The reserves of the teams that qualify for CL? That would only mean improvement for the top teams reserves.. what about the smaller clubs again.. And a tournament big enough for all reserves teams is just too big to be a viable option.

Agree completely that the system need to change somehow, especially in a way so that it creates a opportunity for younger players to develop. It's a difficult question and do doubt that the FA will make the right decision anytime soon.. :razz:

I'd just use the CL format (basically the usual world cup format), not the actual clubs. Ideally you'd only want 3 or 4 countries teams to take part. It's not unrealistic to expect reserve sides to nip across to France or Spain, but if all CL sides were involved it would be totally unfeasible. You can't expect reserve teams to fly to Moscow to play infront of 500 fans. No further than a couple of hours on a plane is what i was thinking. It won't happen, but it's an idea.

 

[eddiebailey]

Not convinced that a European reserve league is the answer, but it is high time the northern and southern reserve leagues were combined. That would result in more fixtures and a higher standard.

The clubs could also do a lot more to drum up interest. Okay, maybe it is not realistic to play all reserve games at WHL, but an Arsenal vs. Spurs fixture at the Lane, reasonably priced, could easily draw a big enough crowd to cover its costs and would serve to create more interest in reserve football generally.

The standard of reserve football at the moment is all over the place. I have seen sides fielded that could have competed in the Championship, and others that were little more than schoolboys.

I wonder whether it might not be an idea to replace reserve football with an U21 League. This might be a more meaningful as a competitive spectacle, with lads like Boateng, Kaboul and Taarabt playing more regularly than they do at present for the reserves. I am sure a lot of fans would be prepared to pay to see a side such as this:

Forecast, Archibald-Henville, Dervite, Kaboul, Gunter, Taarabt, Boateng, O'Hara, Rose, Pekhart, Dawkins, subs Button, Mills, Martin, Livermore, Maghoma.

 

[DC_Boy]

some very good points made in what I think is an important debate - as reserves football is in a bit of a messs I think

maybe TV can help

if the clubs could form a national league and we could get it on a TV channel - and there was a bit of prize money - and maybe some form of incentive like the reserve league winners got to play the Championship winners as a pre-season 'mini Community Shield' - say at Old Trafford or Wembley depending on the teams - maybe we could get reserve football focused again - and stop all this loaning which I find self-defeating for the most part

 

[Sbix]

I'd just use the CL format (basically the usual world cup format), not the actual clubs. Ideally you'd only want 3 or 4 countries teams to take part. It's not unrealistic to expect reserve sides to nip across to France or Spain, but if all CL sides were involved it would be totally unfeasible. You can't expect reserve teams to fly to Moscow to play infront of 500 fans. No further than a couple of hours on a plane is what i was thinking. It won't happen, but it's an idea.

Agree, it probably won't happen, but it would be a good idea, for the clubs participating at least.

More likely is probably Eddiebailey's. Maybe you should model the reserves like their senior sides... A national Prem, championship and league one.. start by using the current teams in respectively division.. and then they play their own league with, winners, (some prize money of course) and relegation teams and the whole fandango ...

 

[truespur]

Surely the key is getting invaluable competitive experience for our best young players, at the highest possible level, by loaning them out. There's no reason why we couldn't have signed Crouch up to a five-year contract, and then loaned him out for the first two years: to QPR and then Portsmouth. Then we could have made a decision on whether he was good enough to be part of our first team squad. We didn't have to sell him to QPR for a few quid.

This season, we've seen zero evidence of progress from Taarabt. Just the odd frustrating cameo for both the reserves and as a first team substitute. Perhaps our coaches are doing great work with him on the training ground. But I can't help thinking both the club and young Adel would have been better served in loaning him out to a club where he'd have made 30-40 competitive appearances.

If we do sign Bostock, I hope we have a proper 5-year plan for developing him - and the likes of Parrett, Mason, Townsend, Adam Smith etc, who are all England U17 internationals.

:clap:

 

[SpurSince57]

Do you know, I'm struggling to remember when it was that we put an end to first team and reserve games alternating at the Lane, and the last time the ressies played at the Lane. Time was, though, that reserve games attracted very substantial crowds. If I could find out who the hell in my family has what remains of the programme collection I could tell you, but possibly distorted memory says attendances were often in the 10,000-15,00 bracket.

It's almost certainly totally fanciful to suggest that we could bring those days back, but, as Eddie says, with realistic/sensible pricing, and smart marketing, surely some of the bigger games would bring in substantial crowds.

And, yes, a U-21 league rather than a reserve league, because our reserves really aren't reserves in the sense they were 40-50 years ago.

 

[michaelden]

The divide b/n the big and small clubs has a lot to do with information. The big clubs have it, ProZone etc... and the small don't. The big clubs have the best tacticians like Rommel and Montgomery while the small have General Melchid and Blackadder, "Over the Top one more time lads!"

To increase the level of the lower leagues things like ProZone must drop in price and coaches must be better trained.

Technique and tactical awareness should be stressed in early training rather than results. Kids should learn to play in more than one position for 4 or 5 different formations. They should be aware of the role of each position in the formations and understand the success ratio of crossing from wide vs deep, passing through the midfield or hoofing it up the pitch.

From a young age the players should be trained in nutrition and biomechanics. Have focused sessions playing Futebol de Salao and spending more time playing in a close environment than on large pitches. This will develop control and technique. Learning a martial art would help them develop explosive power too.



Random thoughts spilt out. Sorry.

 

[joey55]

The divide b/n the big and small clubs has a lot to do with information. The big clubs have it, ProZone etc... and the small don't. The big clubs have the best tacticians like Rommel and Montgomery while the small have General Melchid and Blackadder, "Over the Top one more time lads!"

To increase the level of the lower leagues things like ProZone must drop in price and coaches must be better trained.

Technique and tactical awareness should be stressed in early training rather than results. Kids should learn to play in more than one position for 4 or 5 different formations. They should be aware of the role of each position in the formations and understand the success ratio of crossing from wide vs deep, passing through the midfield or hoofing it up the pitch.

From a young age the players should be trained in nutrition and biomechanics. Have focused sessions playing Futebol de Salao and spending more time playing in a close environment than on large pitches. This will develop control and technique. Learning a martial art would help them develop explosive power too.



Random thoughts spilt out. Sorry.

Interesting points, but I think most of them are more to do with developing young talent, as oppossed to what we are really talking about, which is giving the players a platform to perform on, which can help them make the step up to first team. Even if players in this country were developed better with the good ideas you suggest, we still face the problem of giving them a platform from which they can gain the experience needed to step upto 1st team level. The reserve league is rubbish and it appears the loan system isn't that popular with some managers.

 

[Locotoro]

there is a big downside with this system and that is the "fair play" issues regarding what teams they would play each week. If the reserves would have to travel a long distance for instance they might not have any "first team" players needing match practice etc and just send off the "younger" ones. For short travels there might be more "first team" players etc etc. If there are teams fighting for relegation or promotion and some are involved against a reserve team the outcome might all depend on what team the reserve put on the field.

They used to have this problem in Spain too, until they introduced a rule stating that all the players had to be registered to one of the team's in the Club (Senior team, reserve team, U18 team). Players can not be switched if they have made more than 10 appearances in one of the teams. This ensures that the fairness element of your argument is largely taken care of as you couldnt switch senior players in a the last minute to win the Reserve title.

I wonder whether it might not be an idea to replace reserve football with an U21 League. This might be a more meaningful as a competitive spectacle, with lads like Boateng, Kaboul and Taarabt playing more regularly than they do at present for the reserves. I am sure a lot of fans would be prepared to pay to see a side such as this:

I actually agree with this idea, this would ensure that teams concentrate on developing their youngsters earlier and those who dont make it are allowed to move to other clubs and improve the quality of the lower divisions.


An example of another idea, which I also think bares fruit is that of Porto's link up with a Moroccan club (IFC Tanger). This isnt a regular, commercial link up, it is actually a 10 year agreement that means:
Porto
-Provide coaches (usually youth coaches) to train Tanger coach and players
-Provide a yearly intake of youth players, available for selection in the first team, (usually the first year of reserves)
-and make a payment of yearly fee, for the sole use of newly constructed facilities/training ground and in Tanger's case a whopping new 69,000 seater stadium.

and Tanger
- Provides an opportunity for first team football for a lot of young porto reserves players.
- an obvious commercial footing in Morocco
- first option on any of their players over the next 10 years.


Now im not suggesting that we would have to do this for a moroccan club. Some kind of long term link up with another club (something we dont do with Stevenage or Leyton Orient very well at the moment) would benefit both sides.

 

[michaelden]

Yeah sorry. My attention span isn't what it should be.

How's this, if the reserves league is poor and the loan system is faulty then have larger reserve squads and playing competitive matches inhouse.

Nah that blows.

The best idea yet has been the U21 league.

 

[AngerManagement]

U21 league that isn't split into regions, maybe 2 over 21 players allowed in team (similar to Olympics)

If all the top clubs in EPL were to have their best youngsters involved (supported by a couple of experienced players) the league could become more competitve (as best talent would be kept in league rather then loaned out)

 

[michaelden]

Would there be a promotion/ relegation system involved too?



The idea of twinning with another club is a great idea. I'd like to see Spurs twin with a club. Really get involved from the ground up.

 

[michaelden]

Not sure if anyone knows this but do the academy and reserves train with the first team and regularly mix it up and play training games?

 

[spursfan77]

on the subject of twinning (which sounds like some sort of sordid sexual practice btw!), dont quite a few premiership teams do this?

i remember man u had a few players on loan at antwerp a few years back.

 

[donny1013]

Chelski have a great affiliation with PSV, they had Alex there for a while, now they have younger players there like Alcides and Rajkovic. These players will get the experience of playing in a top side and also CL experience. Also if Aissati or Affelay become available Chelski will no doubt sign them

 

[Krafty]

I think a lot of people high up in football have said the reserve system is crap. The gap between reserve league football and the first team seems to be getting wider and wider. The football is not competitive or fast enough, and a lot of teams have u18 players in it rather than players on the fringes of the first team squad.

We dont put first team players in the reserves unless they are coming back from long term injuries. There arent enough reserve games (Thanks to pleat who changed the structure for the FA).

But I think for the youngsters to progress we need to change the way we run our team. There is this thinking that we need 2 experienced pros for every position, but if we do the kids will never get a chance. Lets be honest, some of the 'squad' players are not that good and a youngster could do an equally solid job once or twice a season and it would help them so much more.

We cant be afraid to give the youngsters game time and the 7 sub thing must be taken advantage of - we cant have 7 players over 25 on the bench.

As for loaning players, we have a link with Leyton Orient, we could do with one with a team like Watford or Palace (probably not Palace after the bostock thing), a good local championship team, and loan players out to them. I think we have to give them some sub appearances so they get to know how we do match days, preparation and the like, then send them out to a good team so they can play regular football, otherwise its not worth it.


I dont like the idea of reserve teams in the football league structure. The championship gets more fans than la liga. Football is much stronger and has more depth in England than in Spain or Holland or Norway. It wouldnt work and its not fair on the teams in the lower leagues

 

[joey55]

I don't think an U21 league is quite what they (maganers) are looking for. Players who stand out at U21 level often do so because they are so physcial. Look at the Dutch who won the Euro's U21 in the summer. I think the point is that coach's want their young players to get experience at senior level, but at a higher standard than the current reserve league. It's a good idea, but I don't think it's the answer.

 

[michaelden]

Create a Spurs in Brazil and send the youth out there for 8 months of the year :shrug:

 

[DC_Boy]

I think greaves once played in a reserve game and 20,000 watched it - from memory asusual, may be wrong