Ron Vlaar

[sloth]

[quote="danielneeds, post: 4136409, member: 1353"]If Dawson ever gets to a World Cup semi-final, keeping a clean sheet, then we can talk. Vlaar has been a shining light for Villa, their fans would be devastated to lose him. Dawson has been a car crash for a couple of years.

I'll point you again to these stats, which suggest his qualities compare favourably to people in much better teams.

So Dawson's 13 clean sheets in the league last season don't count?

In fact, running up a Squawka matrix that includes Dawson and Kaboul as well as Vlaar and Lovren is rather instructive, particularly if you include the passing stats, blocks and interceptions.

Didn't bother including Kaboul as his season was so injury interrupted as to make the stats meaningless. Looking just at Lovren, Dawson, Vlaar, and random picks in Ashley Williams and Curtis Davies, then on Squawka's defensive performance score Dawson comes out the worst...

 

[sloth]

here's the link to the matrix: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...rrors/errors_leading_to_goal/clearances#total

 

[SpurSince57]

Didn't bother including Kaboul as his season was so injury interrupted as to make the stats meaningless. Looking just at Lovren, Dawson, Vlaar, and random picks in Ashley Williams and Curtis Davies, then on Squawka's defensive performance score Dawson comes out the worst...

How so? On interceptions and blocks, and aerial duels won, he comes out clearly ahead of Vlaar. I've no idea how Squawka calculates its overall defensive rating, but Vlaar is only marginally better than Dawson on that score; perhaps it's best not to compare him to our other CBs.

If we're going to out any of our CBs let's get someone who's going to be a significant improvement, not a player who at best is going to be only marginally better, and possibly no improvement at all. van Gaal played Vlaar in the World Cup? Would he sign him for United?

 

[SpurSince57]

Frank Spencer would be an upgrade on Dawson these days. Have you watched any of the US games? Honestly, he's been embarrassing...

No. Why would I want to watch Mickey Mouse kick-abouts? Because they're such an accurate predictor of real-world football?

 

[danielneeds]

Didn't bother including Kaboul as his season was so injury interrupted as to make the stats meaningless. Looking just at Lovren, Dawson, Vlaar, and random picks in Ashley Williams and Curtis Davies, then on Squawka's defensive performance score Dawson comes out the worst...

It's funny you should put Curtis Davies in there, he's another player I would be pleased if we went for. Not flashy, not a sexy foreigner, but he's been a real leader for Hull, and has got a wealth of experience now. Think he'd be another good partner for Jan.

 

[SpurSince57]

It's funny you should put Curtis Davies in there, he's another player I would be pleased if we went for. Not flashy, not a sexy foreigner, but he's been a real leader for Hull, and has got a wealth of experience now. Think he'd be another good partner for Jan.

He'd be a sight better than Vlaar, that's for sure.

 

[sloth]

How so? On interceptions and blocks, and aerial duels won, he comes out clearly ahead of Vlaar. I've no idea how Squawka calculates its overall defensive rating, but Vlaar is only marginally better than Dawson on that score; perhaps it's best not to compare him to our other CBs.

If we're going to out any of our CBs let's get someone who's going to be a significant improvement, not a player who at best is going to be only marginally better, and possibly no improvement at all. van Gaal played Vlaar in the World Cup? Would he sign him for United?

I don't disagree with your last paragraph.

Anyway, on the stats alone (per 90 minutes)

Vlaar Statistic Dawson
29 Tackles Lost 41
55 Tackles Won 34
26 Tackle Diff -7
61% Aerial Duels Won 65%
63% Total Duels Won 56%
11 Fouls committed 29
63 Interceptions 67
19 Blocks 23
1 Defensive errors 4
0 Defensive errors leading to a goal 2
224 Clearances 263
541 Defence Score 501​

 

[SpurSince57]

So apart from tackling, where Vlaar is clearly better, there's very little to choose between them, with Dawson definitely edging certain areas. Dawson comes out of the comparison far better than our other CBs.

 

[danielneeds]

So apart from tackling, where Vlaar is clearly better, there's very little to choose between them, with Dawson definitely edging certain areas. Dawson comes out of the comparison far better than our other CBs.

So apart from being a better tackler, committing less fouls, making less mistakes, it's about even then..? lolz

 

[SpurSince57]

So apart from being a better tackler, committing less fouls, making less mistakes, it's about even then..? lolz

You're perfectly capable of reading off the stats, aren't you? Dawson is better in several areas—sure, not hugely so, but sufficient to suggest that there would be little if any advantage in replacing him with Vlaar. As for mistakes, our other CBs are no better than Dawson—rather worse, as it happens, but you shouldn't really need Squawka to tell you that, should you?

Dawson's overall Squawka score, by the way, is 662.32, Vlaar's 563.45. But I'm sure there's a perfectly logical explanation for that.

 

[ButchCassidy]

You're perfectly capable of reading off the stats, aren't you? Dawson is better in several areas—sure, not hugely so, but sufficient to suggest that there would be little if any advantage in replacing him with Vlaar. As for mistakes, our other CBs are no better than Dawson—rather worse, as it happens, but you shouldn't really need Squawka to tell you that, should you?

Dawson's overall Squawka score, by the way, is 662.32, Vlaar's 563.45. But I'm sure there's a perfectly logical explanation for that.

You're right, Dawson has a small advantage in some statistical categories. But the reason people want him out is 1. He is too slow for a high line, 2. He makes too many silly and costly mistakes for a CB of his age and experience, and 3. His positioning leaves a lot to be desired. Of these concerns, Vlaar handles both 1 and 2, and while there isn't a good stat for 3, watching him in the World Cup his positioning was excellent and there's no reason that should change with a good game plan under a manager like Poch.

As for Dawson's aggregate rating, I would say that the reason probably has a lot to do with the fact that he had Vertonghen to partner him, Lloris behind him, and players like Ade, Eriksen, Sandro, and Dembele to play it forward to. Vlaar had a struggling Benteke and a whole load of has-beens and disappointments. So Dawson's attacking and possession scores will be much better, simply due to the fact that Vlaar never had any time to even attempt attacking or possession.

 

[SpurSince57]

You're right, Dawson has a small advantage in some statistical categories. But the reason people want him out is 1. He is too slow for a high line, 2. He makes too many silly and costly mistakes for a CB of his age and experience, and 3. His positioning leaves a lot to be desired. Of these concerns, Vlaar handles both 1 and 2, and while there isn't a good stat for 3, watching him in the World Cup his positioning was excellent and there's no reason that should change with a good game plan under a manager like Poch.

As for Dawson's aggregate rating, I would say that the reason probably has a lot to do with the fact that he had Vertonghen to partner him, Lloris behind him, and players like Ade, Eriksen, Sandro, and Dembele to play it forward to. Vlaar had a struggling Benteke and a whole load of has-beens and disappointments. So Dawson's attacking and possession scores will be much better, simply due to the fact that Vlaar never had any time to even attempt attacking or possession.

And Kaboul and Vertonghen don't?

Yes. The World Cup. Very relevant to the EPL. Perhaps van Gaal will sign him. Or perhaps he won't.

 

[danielneeds]

And Kaboul and Vertonghen don't?

Yes. The World Cup. Very relevant to the EPL. P.

And Kaboul and Vertonghen don't?

Yes. The World Cup. Very relevant to the EPL. Perhaps van Gaal will sign him. Or perhaps he won't.

Really is that the best you can do? A player's not good enough for us because a club that can shop at a far higher level in the market might not sign him? Should we not not go for Schneiderlin because United are not interested?

And yes, I would replace Kaboul as well as Dawson. Vertonghen, we know from the 2012/13 season can be one of the best performing CBs in the league, and should be given another chance. Dawson's had too many.

 

[Strikeb4ck]

Really is that the best you can do? A player's not good enough for us because a club that can shop at a far higher level in the market might not sign him? Should we not not go for Schneiderlin because United are not interested?

And yes, I would replace Kaboul as well as Dawson. Vertonghen, we know from the 2012/13 season can be one of the best performing CBs in the league, and should be given another chance. Dawson's had too many.

And we know the same about Kaboul...

 

[danielneeds]

And we know the same about Kaboul...

Not really, never voted into the PFA team of the season. Kaboul did have a very good year in Harry's last season, but he's never been consistently top notch.

 

[SpurSince57]

Really is that the best you can do? A player's not good enough for us because a club that can shop at a far higher level in the market might not sign him? Should we not not go for Schneiderlin because United are not interested?

And yes, I would replace Kaboul as well as Dawson. Vertonghen, we know from the 2012/13 season can be one of the best performing CBs in the league, and should be given another chance. Dawson's had too many.

The best you could do, apparently, was point out that he had clean sheets in the World Cup. I was responding to a post that emphasised his positioning at the World Cup, as if that necessarily had some relevance to the EPL; comment on his positioning for Villa might have been altogether more apposite. The point about van Gaal should have been obvious.

I'm not bowled over by the idea of signing him because I don't think he'll be a significant upgrade on Dawson, and Dawson should be no better than third or fourth choice. We need someone better than either to partner Vertonghen.

 

[Spurslove]

He had a good World Cup, but that could be very misleading. Not a bad defender, but no way on God's green earth would I ever let Villa get Holtby + cash for him. Seriously? Holtby + cash...??? Holtby is one of our young crown jewels and with the right management could be a star for us for many years to come.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I am not raving mad about Vlaar, he's never struck me as exceptional, just a pretty decent solid CB in the mould of quite a few kicking around. He's not an exceptional reader of the game (like a Demichelis for example) and at his age he isn't getting any quicker. So what's the point ?

 

[danielneeds]

The best you could do, apparently, was point out that he had clean sheets in the World Cup. I was responding to a post that emphasised his positioning at the World Cup, as if that necessarily had some relevance to the EPL; comment on his positioning for Villa might have been altogether more apposite. The point about van Gaal should have been obvious.

I'm not bowled over by the idea of signing him because I don't think he'll be a significant upgrade on Dawson, and Dawson should be no better than third or fourth choice. We need someone better than either to partner Vertonghen.

I really only pointed out that in one of the biggest frames of his life, World Cup semi, he helped his side to clean sheet, and that Dawson has accomplished nothing like that at that level.

Actually the World Cup does have some relevance, because what I'm looking for alongside Vertonghen is a leader and organiser, and the Dutch defence was made up of mostly inexperienced players at that level, De Vrij, Janmat, Blind, Martins-Indi, and he was the senior player organising the back line.

I don't think he is the Baresi or King-incarnate, just that his personality and skill set could help to make the rest of our back four better, and as a unit tougher to break down.

 

[Mr Pink]

I am not raving mad about Vlaar, he's never struck me as exceptional, just a pretty decent solid CB in the mould of quite a few kicking around. He's not an exceptional reader of the game (like a Demichelis for example) and at his age he isn't getting any quicker. So what's the point ?

Like Dawson? lol