SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[Bus-Conductor]

@Bus-Conductor

This looks like a great analysis of our team, albeit it has been translated from French:

http://analysport.fr/tottenham-en/

I'm not so sure. There was a lot of text book "Poch" stuff rehashed from various articles throughout the season. Spurs play out from the back…Dier drops between the CB's….is never leaving 4231 showing great tactical ability ? I suppose you can show great tactical ability within a a very formulaic system, it's certainly not showing a lot of tactical flexibility though.

I have so far got as far as this line:

"Dele Alli is by far the best in playing between the lines and turning while receiving the ball"

I think this is utter bollocks written by someone who's possibly watched about 1 full Spurs game all season or just watched Alli's England game.

Eriksen does this about 30 times more a game than any of our other AM's, Alli probably the least best at this of all our first choice 3 AM's, invariably Alli's link up play was clumsy or at worst non existent for long spells, what Alli was best at when played as AM in our system was getting into advanced areas and making something happen.

I'll read the rest later...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

@THFCSPURS19

I think the second half of the article that goes into detail about the various transitional structures is a lot more informative. I think it makes some valid conclusions about Spacing coherence, and improving play between the lines, it's why I'd rather spend the bigger money on a cleverer AM (Drexler, Fekir are two I've quoted but others brands are available) than a back up, more one dimensional 9. My belief is it's always better to have intelligent creatives as they will create more quality chances that require less intelligent strikers and super intelligent strikers are almost impossible for clubs like us to buy anyway.

I think it also makes a very salient point about us actually being one the weaker teams at capitalising on the counter. This is why I, and others, including you I think, acknowledge the need to have at least one CM who sees and moves the ball vertically with more speed and incision than the two we have now. It's not just a personal agenda against Dier or Dembele, both of whom I think have many redeeming features, we are a team that invariably presses early, likes to take the lead, we need to learn how to manage the middle/later phase of games better (Pochettino's achilles heel IMO throughout his career, certainly in England) and part of that is learning how to be more effective on the counter, which will inhibit the chasing team and help us finish off games.

This was Liverpool's problem in the Rodgers/Suarez ins season, but they still did it better than us though, were often 3 goals up by the time the middle/later phase needed managing and they managed 14 more points than us and a +20 more GD and part of that was that they adapted their shape and had people like Allen, Gerrard, Henderson who were all far more metronomic progressive:

Dier and Dembele are defensively very sound, but I think Pochettino continually pairing these two is actually a bit of a cop out, an effective and viable cop out in his view maybe, but a cop out none the less. I'd much rather he taught Bentaleb, Mason, Onomah and Winks how to adapt the defensive side of their game - positional and tracking diligence for example - and thus allowing us to have at least one CM more conducive to intelligent risk taking passing.

Or at least be prepared to change his default formation shape from the rigorously adhered to (as the article opens with) 4231 to something more like a 433, with people like Alli, Onomah, Winks, mason and Bentaleb you have players that have the energy and ability to be effective bombing forward but will also allow us some defensive insurance. It's how Rodgers worked it (often using a diamond version - certainly when attacking) and it was tactically very effective at times.

I think Pochettino likes to have a numerical advantage at the front end, I understand this, but is the only way to achieve that to remain wedded for eternity to a 4231 ? I think good coaching can change this perspective. I think he can achieve what he wants and not have to have to remain fixed to 4231 and two very risk averse CM's with good coaching. I think he is a good coach, he's clearly demonstrated this, but we (I) also have to bare in mind he's only 6 seasons (2 of which were fighting fires with Espanyol, one was acclimatising with a novice EPL side) into his coaching career. The awareness and courage to be more flexible will almost certainly come with experience, you'd hope.

 

[StartingPrice]

@THFCSPURS19
Dier and Dembele are defensively very sound, and I think Pochettino continually pairing these two is actually a bit of a cop out, an effective and viable cop out in his view maybe, but a cop out none the less. I'd much rather he taught Bentaleb, Mason, Onomah and Winks how to adapt the defensive side of their game - positional and tracking diligence for example - and thus allowing us to have at least one CM more conducive to intelligent risk taking passing.

I agree. But, ultimately, after the way the defence leaked goals in his first season, you can't really blame Poch. I think it is to Dembélé's credit that in that first season he stated several times that he wanted to know what Poch wanted him to do. He was prepared to listen and work at what he was asked to do...up to a point. Even in that season I saw him, on occasion, poke the ball forward immediately - but then look unsure of himself. It is so much against his instincts and skill-set. He is a worthy member of the squad, and I can't see any reason that shouldn't continue for the foreseeable...until he begins running out of steam, that is.

But we do need proper cover/competition for him, and preferably someone who can add that more instinctive attacking element to give more immediate forward momentum our game. And I agree, I would rather he taught Bentaleb, Mason, Onomah and Winks (or any combination thereof) to adapt the defensive side of their game. For all we know he may have been doing just that, already. I harbour hopes that Bentaleb partnering Dier/cover, rather than trying to cover it himself along with an equally stretched Mason, may be able to fulfill that role. I, for one, am far from convinced by the way he has been written off in some quarters (not by you, I know). He showed plenty of fire and willingness to get stuck in, not to forget his cameo at left-back. And he is only 21...isn't he? His natural game is more offensive, after all.

I think Pochettino likes to have a numerical advantage at the front end, I understand this, but is the only way to achieve that to remain wedded for eternity to a 4231 ?

I am sure that I have heard Poch, in talking about striking reinforcements, talk about being prepared to play two up top if needs-be. Don't know how that helps...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

@sloth

Do you remember earlier in the season when you were berating me for suggesting Alli isn't right for a CM2 and isn't quite right as an AM either (though as the season wore on I acknowledged that based on our options Alli, due to his productivity and better work ethic than people like Chadli) needed to be accommodated in that AM line, I used the example of Pogba for comparison and how despite being the most highly valued (monetary wise) CM in the world right now, he can only really be accommodated as a CM in a CM3.

Well tonight you saw some evidence of what I was saying about Pogba and visa vis-à-vis Alli. Deschamps chose not to play the worlds most expensively valued CM when he switched to 4231/CM2, and when he brought him on he switched to a 433.

I think Alli's best game last season was the one he played for England in the CM3. I think until we switch to this we will never truly see the best of Alli, who I believe has many similar qualities to Pogba.

If you look up some of the critique of Pogba by the excellent Philipe Auclair, you we see some parallels to things I've said about Alli. Auclair likes Pogba, acknowledges his qualities, accepts he can be brilliant but feels he can sometimes make poor choices and also have awful games that get lit up by a moment of brilliance, where most of the clucking heads just eulogise about him.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

@sloth

Do you remember earlier in the season when you were berating me for suggesting Alli isn't right for a CM2 and isn't quite right as an AM either (though as the season wore on I acknowledged that based on our options Alli, due to his productivity and better work ethic than people like Chadli) needed to be accommodated in that AM line, I used the example of Pogba for comparison and how despite being the most highly valued (monetary wise) CM in the world right now, he can only really be accommodated as a CM in a CM3.

Well tonight you saw some evidence of what I was saying about Pogba and visa vis-à-vis Alli. Deschamps chose not to play the worlds most expensively valued CM when he switched to 4231/CM2, and when he brought him on he switched to a 433.

I think Alli's best game last season was the one he played for England in the CM3. I think until we switch to this we will never truly see the best of Alli, who I believe has many similar qualities to Pogba.

If you look up some of the critique of Pogba by the excellent Philipe Auclair, you we see some parallels to things I've said about Alli. Auclair likes Pogba, acknowledges his qualities, accepts he can be brilliant but feels he can sometimes make poor choices and also have awful games that get lit up by a moment of brilliance, where most of the clucking heads just eulogise about him.

Difference is that Alli played in the midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation for MK Dons, which shows he can play the position. He may not yet be ready to play there at PL level, but I have no doubt in my mind that eventually he can make the transition and succeed.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Difference is that Alli played in the midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation for MK Dons, which shows he can play the position. He may not yet be ready to play there at PL level, but I have no doubt in my mind that eventually he can make the transition and succeed.

Because a player can and does play in a certain position does not mean it is getting the best out of him.

Yaya Toure is another great example. Pellegrini continuously played him in a cm2, ManC even won a title, the guy can play there, but are you going to argue that him playing there Is the best, tactically, for him or the team ?

I think in most decent teams Pogba could play in a cm2, but the cleverest coaches are smart enough to know that is not how you get the best out of him, nor is playing him as an out and out AM, and I think that is ultimately the case with Alli.

I think it is also the case with some of our other players, but nobody seems get so bent out of shape if I say it about them or take it as some kind of personal vendetta. With them it's just seen as what it is, a tactical observation/opinion.

And with regards to Alli at MK Dons, if you remember it was one of the first things I questioned after watching him play in a cm2 for them before he'd ever kicked a ball for us. The three or four games I saw he was not good in a CM2 in terms of the "full" remit, but what he did do was bomb into the box and create a bit of mayhem (in fact in one of the games I saw I think he was actually started as an ACM and then moved back to CM) and I don't think I saw MKD win a single one of the games I watched - but as I said at the time, maybe others who saw him more had seen him play better there ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How do you differentiate between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 for example?

The only time players line up in some sort of formation is when they are defending the 1st 3rd of the pitch which is where they're not really marking anyone apart from that players don't play to some sort of formulaic pattern and stick to positions that the formation represents.

That really isn't true at all, unless you're Redknapp or Tim Sherwood maybe?

We all know formations are fluid and dynamic as play moves around the pitch, and often players are given remit to switch etc, but formations are very intrinsic to the default structure, the way players interact within that fluidity and structure, their roles and remit, and this is the case for just about every team with a coach worth a wank (which is most these days) whether they get it right or wrong.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You don't agree @steve ?

 

[Flashspur]

@sloth

Do you remember earlier in the season when you were berating me for suggesting Alli isn't right for a CM2 and isn't quite right as an AM either (though as the season wore on I acknowledged that based on our options Alli, due to his productivity and better work ethic than people like Chadli) needed to be accommodated in that AM line, I used the example of Pogba for comparison and how despite being the most highly valued (monetary wise) CM in the world right now, he can only really be accommodated as a CM in a CM3.

Well tonight you saw some evidence of what I was saying about Pogba and visa vis-à-vis Alli. Deschamps chose not to play the worlds most expensively valued CM when he switched to 4231/CM2, and when he brought him on he switched to a 433.

I think Alli's best game last season was the one he played for England in the CM3. I think until we switch to this we will never truly see the best of Alli, who I believe has many similar qualities to Pogba.

If you look up some of the critique of Pogba by the excellent Philipe Auclair, you we see some parallels to things I've said about Alli. Auclair likes Pogba, acknowledges his qualities, accepts he can be brilliant but feels he can sometimes make poor choices and also have awful games that get lit up by a moment of brilliance, where most of the clucking heads just eulogise about him.

I think Alli will adapt more to the 4-2-3-1 over coming seasons as he is too smart a player not to want to do that. The fact is that Alli will play less in the CM2 and more in the centre of the 3 AM's. A perfect role for him. I agree with you that he is probably a little immature to be able to handle the 'creative' CM2 role at the moment. But who knows with time he may grow into that as well.

As for Pogba, I think he is over rated in terms of his current development. Yes he has tremendous potential and who knows the lad's ceiling. That's clear to everyone. But at the moment, he isn't at the level people think he is at. Too many errors and poor decisions for that to be the case and as well that - as his lack of flexibility to apply himself to different formations.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think Alli will adapt more to the 4-2-3-1 over coming seasons as he is too smart a player not to want to do that. The fact is that Alli will play less in the CM2 and more in the centre of the 3 AM's. A perfect role for him. I agree with you that he is probably a little immature to be able to handle the 'creative' CM2 role at the moment. But who knows with time he may grow into that as well.

As for Pogba, I think he is over rated in terms of his current development. Yes he has tremendous potential and who knows the lad's ceiling. That's clear to everyone. But at the moment, he isn't at the level people think he is at. Too many errors and poor decisions for that to be the case and as well that - as his lack of flexibility to apply himself to different formations.

I agree, to a degree, which was part of my original point, but I also think the same is true of Alli. Like Pogba, he is capable of great moments, but his 'bad" at the moment is worse than Pogba's "bad". I guess that's to be expected at their respective development stages. I thought Pogba did OK against Romsnia but he was slaughtered by the French press, Alli wad atrocious today and got lauded on motd and I doubt there'll be a peep about him in tomorrow's press. And that was true for much of last season, when I saw Alli actually singled out for praise on tv in games where he'd been atrocious.

I font agree that Alli's best position is as an acm.

Both clearly have talent, both suffer from some over hype too, but at least Pogba is being utilised tactically to get the best from him, and his team are benefitting from that. I hope we can say the same for Alli in a couple of years.

 

[steve]

You don't agree @steve ?

Fat drunken thumbs mate.

My general thoughts on England are that they've done ok against 2 teams who have pretty much parked the bus until they've got near the edge of the box and then they've struggled. Sturridge should come in for Sterling and switch to the right with Lallana swapping to the left. Alli deserves another game (just) but needs to play in a 3. I have reservations over Wilshere, firstly he has a tendency to hang onto the ball too long and carry it rather than play the early ball and secondly is he really match fit? Rooney was better against Russia than he was against Wales. Either way they need to move the ball quicker. Kane stays in, Vardy touched the ball about 6 times when he came on despite the goal (when let's face it he lucked in that Williams shut his eyes and stuck his noggin on the ball).

Not a lot to do with the Pogba/Alli discussion but that one's a no brainer for me, just watch them both and it's pretty clear they are not regular CM's and need to play in a 3.

 

[stevenqoz]

Little point in looking for tactical insight with Woy's England side. The man is clueless. Alli, a real youngster. is just playing it as he sees it. Even Harry's old 'run around' type direction would be more instructional. To me, Alli's role in a 4 2 3 1 requires the player to continually adjust ....dropping in deeper when necessary to make up the three but also going on beyond the 9 at times like he has done for Spurs. England, Alli (and Kane) have been positively hindered by the useless Sterling and Lallana, who with Sterling has provided little or no width. Alli has a great engine, possesses an edge and can produce moments of genius for whoever he plays. After a meteoric rise in a single season Alli won't have much time after the Euro's to address the difficult secong season syndrome

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Little point in looking for tactical insight with Woy's England side. The man is clueless. Alli, a real youngster. is just playing it as he sees it. Even Harry's old 'run around' type direction would be more instructional. To me, Alli's role in a 4 2 3 1 requires the player to continually adjust ....dropping in deeper when necessary to make up the three but also going on beyond the 9 at times like he has done for Spurs. England, Alli (and Kane) have been positively hindered by the useless Sterling and Lallana, who with Sterling has provided little or no width. Alli has a great engine, possesses an edge and can produce moments of genius for whoever he plays. After a meteoric rise in a single season Alli won't have much time after the Euro's to address the difficult secong season syndrome

I'm pretty sure England played a 433 with Alli rcm. I think Alli just played very badly. As did Sterling.

I think Lallana played very well, certainly for the first 45-60 minutes.

I think the width is provided by the full backs (Walker & Rose) who, as with Spurs, got up and down enthusiastically but didn't provide much tangible end product.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i hope with wanyama coming in poch sees it as dier/wanyama and dembele/bentaleb/mason rather than wanyama being the first backup regardless of whether it's dier or dembele missing out. there's definitely times particularly late on in games where dier+wanyama could be beneficial but i don't really want to see them(as a pair) starting at home to crystal palace or whatever.

 

[stevenqoz]

I'm pretty sure England played a 433 with Alli rcm. I think Alli just played very badly. As did Sterling.

I think Lallana played very well, certainly for the first 45-60 minutes.

I think the width is provided by the full backs (Walker & Rose) who, as with Spurs, got up and down enthusiastically but didn't provide much tangible end product.

I think I was talking about the first game

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is an unfair and oft parroted complaint. If you look at @Trix response right before yours you will see (if you haven't already been able to conclude that with your own analysis) that many of the 2nd teamers were not up to snuff. So it is silly to conclude "poch doesn't rotate", "poch doesn't change the game with his subs" etc when he doesn't have proper confidence in the players at his disposal. Where he had proper cover he did rotate/sub. Where he didn't, he didn't. Hopefully this year he will have 2 players with his confidence in every position.

I think that's a very generous assessment HS. We saw Vertonghen played in 4 out of 6 Europa group games for example, when we had Wimmer. I think Alderweireld played every single group game. Eriksen played 4 of the 6 Europa and some cup games. (One of the Europa games Eriksen didn't play we beat Monaco 4-1, so clearly resting key players wasn't fatal).

I think many of his subs were tactically really counter intuitive and I think contributed to us losing more points from winning positions than any other team.

 

[heelspurs]

I think that's a very generous assessment HS. We saw Vertonghen played in 4 out of 6 Europa group games for example, when we had Wimmer. I think Alderweireld played every single group game. Eriksen played 4 of the 6 Europa and some cup games. (One of the Europa games Eriksen didn't play we beat Monaco 4-1, so clearly resting key players wasn't fatal).

I think many of his subs were tactically really counter intuitive and I think contributed to us losing more points from winning positions than any other team.

OK, BC how the hell did you reply to my post from the Ryan Mason thread here? lol it kind of takes it out of context to reply here...and mixed me up. But as a quick response I don't think we can make summary judgments on Poch's methods (yet!) until we A) have a settled XI of his guys (achieved last season) familiar with his philosophy; B) have a settled squad with rotational quality (presumably achieved this season) familiar with his methods.

I just get tired of people spitting out the same tired, hackneyed lines in lieu of actual analysis. Not aimed at you as I know your analysis goes deeper than that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm sure someone started a thread yesterday about Poch's lack of structural flexibility but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere?

I think this is becoming an issue and is going to be exasperated if we are going to get two of Dier, Wanyama and Dembele in the cm2 most of the time.

The PL has never been more awash with tactically savvy managers and we are going to be be very easy to stifle if Poch doesn't show some tactical and, particularly, structural flexibility this season IMO, and I don't just mean the odd switch to 442.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

I'm sure someone started a thread yesterday about Poch's lack of structural flexibility but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere?

I think this is becoming an issue and is going to be exasperated if we are going to get two of Dier, Wanyama and Dembele in the cm2 most of the time.

The PL has never been more awash with tactically savvy managers and we are going to be be very easy to stifle if Poch doesn't show some tactical and, particularly, structural flexibility this season IMO, and I don't just mean the odd switch to 442.

It might be that Poch is learning his game and tactical and structural adeptness is something he develops over the next year or two. His coaching is generally excellent and his ethos is tailor made for our current needs.
Love your analysis and commitment by the way- I don't agree with everything but you generally know your stuff and express it with style.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It might be that Poch is learning his game and tactical and structural adeptness is something he develops over the next year or two. His coaching is generally excellent and his ethos is tailor made for our current needs.
Love your analysis and commitment by the way- I don't agree with everything but you generally know your stuff and express it with style.

Agree, I like his ethos and as a coach he's possibly my favourite in the decades I've been watching Spurs, just watching a Spurs side that actually plays without the ball and defends as a team is something I'd given up thinking I'd ever see.

I think he's far enough into his managerial journey (what 6 years ?) to start showing a modicum of tactical flexibility. I'm really surprised that with the players he has at his disposal he's never once started a 433, especially in some of the tougher away games or switched to it more often in games where we are trying to protect a lead (I know he did do this a couple of times, but not many). It's a very common tactical switch to make from 4231 to 433, and doesn't take a very complex adjustment.