SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[jonathanhotspur]

Sorry if you're not feeling the love, BC (though I doubt you give two hoots). I happen to think you're an outstanding contributor to this site-one of the main reasons I've put down roots here, in fact.

 

[thetallaghttiger]

we played great the other night - agreed.

We need to press the opposition and maintain a good off the ball work-rate - agreed!

Barcelona are the best club team in the world, most people accept that. But why? Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta are 3 of the best players in the world, and they do keep the ball better than any other team, but it's their off the ball work rate that is really top notch.

If we fail to set a good work rate in the second half of the season, we could suffer. When we do press teams, the pressing for Pavlyuchenko's goal against Sunderland being the prime example, we can destroy teams

 

[tooey]

Sorry if you're not feeling the love, BC (though I doubt you give two hoots). I happen to think you're an outstanding contributor to this site-one of the main reasons I've put down roots here, in fact.

Gay. :wink:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B.C you really do have a talent for getting some folks 'knickers in a twist'

It's amazing how many bites you can get by simply throwing out a line in these shallow waters.

In the words of the great Eric Cantona "when the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea".

My bad. Thought I'd written a faintly humour tinged piece praising the tactics used by Redknapp and the resulting performance, turns out I accidentally translated Mein Kampf.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

My bad. Thought I'd written a faintly humour tinged piece praising the tactics used by Redknapp and the resulting performance, turns out I accidentally translated Mein Kampf.

The main body of your report was probably worth a B+ (which I call progress....) but your epilogue was probably worthy of a bumming from the big gay Physics teacher who has two cats. I think that's what got people's goat, definitely mine anyway.

 

[StartingPrice]

My bad. Thought I'd written a faintly humour tinged piece praising the tactics used by Redknapp and the resulting performance, turns out I accidentally translated Mein Kampf.

Oh, there was no accident in that...you gave your real agenda away with the frequent usage of the word hegemony (though why Hitler was so taken with Scottish New Year's celebrations, I cannot explain - he was a vegetarian, y'knowmg.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Apologies, I got lost in all the flouncy bollocks:

Good analysis BC. Last couple of games have really shown that we can adapt the formation from 442 to suit the personnel and give the back four a bit more cover. I was against it tbh, despite how impressive Sandro has always looked in the middle and have been proved wrong.

I'm still to be convinced that we can get away with this consistently against top sides (there was a long 'wobble' against Chelsea after VDV went off) but it may just be a matter of practice and it definitely bodes well for the remainder of the season.

Whether it's 442 or the 433/4231, another seasoned, pacy, (preferably two-footed) attacking player who can play anywhere across the middle to stand in for Bale/Lennon/VDV is a must for me (and the obvious that we need a better stand-in for Adebayor)

As I say, Marin would be my overwhelming choice there. Would slot straight into 5 of the forward 6 positions

I completely agree about the type of player you'd like to get in, a Marin type would be high up on my list too. I really like the look of christian Eriksen, but haven't seen loads of him.

Good stuff BC (if a little harsh in tone)

I think that (aside from Gallas/King) - that is my first choice XI and formation. I rate Lennon but I don't think we should upset this side unnecessarily.

Very unpredictable, lots of movement and, with that defensive screen of Parker & Sandro - it actually makes us more attacking.

This is the absolute beauty and purpose of tactics. I've never been a huge fan of 433, and I have never been a fan of VDV playing anywhere other than centrally, and like you, don't believe it will work against tougher opposition (but I have to be honest and say one of the reasons it won't work against tougher teams is we aren't disciplined enough or work hard enough off the ball) but if used in certain circumstances, like the Norwich game, it became a brilliant vehicle for doing just what you said, getting our best 11 players on the pitch at the same time in the harmonious way possible, without compromising any other aspect of the team too much.

I thought it was a quite a good analysis tbh?

It has actually been since Stoke away that Harry has been tinkering successfully. The Chelsea game was a learning curve for him in that he finally realised that we couldn't try to replicate the width we have normally when Lennon isn't playing. So he didn't even try to yesterday, he went narrower and asked BAE and Walker to provide the width while allowing Bale, VDV and Modric to float about where they wanted to. In particular Bale tucking in and trying to run beyond was very effective.

I saw it as a

4-1-3-1-1 but it was far more fluid than that with the only people actually playing in fixed positions being Kaboul, Gallas, and Sandro.

It may not work as well against better sides but now matter how good you are, you can't do much when you don't have the ball and yesterday, Norwich just didn't have the ball.

It won't always work and I would want Lennon in my team 9 times out of 10, but it is certainly encouraging to see Harry experimenting.

To be honest, I think in practice it varied between a multitude of formations but I believe, having also watched the chelsea game, that the default was 433 with Modric left of the middle three.

And as I said in the OP, although I still wish we would work harder off the ball, our best tactic on Tuesday was simply starving Norwich of the ball, and we did this because instead of Lennon, we were able to add another ball retainer, and personally I think if Walker could just apply a bit of craft, we wouldn't miss Lennon too much on the occasions that he doesn't play. That formation found Walker in acres of space on a lot of occasions.

Good analysis, though I think you have to consider whether Redknapp's greater willingness to experiment tactically isn't due to having the personnel that enable him to do so. He may have wanted to experiment more last season but just didn't have the right players to believe it would work.

We have seen, on numerous occasions, fate playing a part in Redknapp's decision making process. Bale's re-emergence, AC Milan away etc are prominent examples. Defoe & Lennon's injury did present him with a forced dilemma, but last night his solution was innovative, as was his solution against stoke away. He could have stuck with his previous back up of VDV right, Pav up top in a 442, he could have played Corluka and put Walker RM and played the 4411.

I have been critical when, IMO, he has got things wrong and they have adversely effected our performance/results. But tuesday he gambled, and it was a brave gamble away from home, but it worked and we won because of the decisions he made and the tactics he employed.

we played great the other night - agreed.

We need to press the opposition and maintain a good off the ball work-rate - agreed!

Barcelona are the best club team in the world, most people accept that. But why? Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta are 3 of the best players in the world, and they do keep the ball better than any other team, but it's their off the ball work rate that is really top notch.

If we fail to set a good work rate in the second half of the season, we could suffer. When we do press teams, the pressing for Pavlyuchenko's goal against Sunderland being the prime example, we can destroy teams

Every time pressing the ball gets mentioned Barca are the forst name that inevitably pop into everyone's head, but no-one is saying we have to press like Barca. I just want to see us press like we did against Liverpool and like we have in spells in other games this season as a matter of routine. There have been a couple of other occasions when it has yielded goals for us.

I don't want us to compromise the flowing passing football, and it shouldn't, it should help it. Every decent side in the last 20 years has performed the task in some shape or form (not the uber pressing of Barca) to some degree or extent. But there are games, and spells where we just still stand off, almost collectively unless players whose instinct it is not to are involved like Sandro, Parker, Gallas , Kaboul, King and Adebayor to a degree.

The main body of your report was probably worth a B+ (which I call progress....) but your epilogue was probably worthy of a bumming from the big gay Physics teacher who has two cats. I think that's what got people's goat, definitely mine anyway.

You seem to know a lot about the physics teacher's home life, did you once do an epilogue yourself ?

Seriously, tell me what you objected to about the concept of marrying the creative stuff with some discipline ?

 

[Legend10]

Over the last 15 Premiership games no team in the league has conceded less goals than what we have, nobody!

Man Utd 11
Spurs 11

Over 15 matches those are the 2 best defensive records in the Premier league, 15 games is a long period and if you don't defend properly, work hard, have discipline, have players that are defensive liabilities etc you will get caught out!

This is especially so when you are a very attack minded team which we are, this is proven by the fact that we have scored 33 times through the same period.

IMHO people who believe that we don't work hard enough or press out of possesion when we don't have the ball aren't actually watching the games, they are more interested in what the stats say. We press when the time is right, you can't just press press press for gods sake, you'll be in the oxygen tent by half-time. Sometimes shape and organisation and getting in to that shape quickly are far more important than pressing, we are not Barcelona and we don't have 70%+ possesion so why do people want us to play like them, they are a 1 off team in the history of the game!

BC as it's your thread let me ask you a question:

How can a team that has in the main played 442 or 4411 with 2 wide chocolate teapots (your description), a central midfield player who out of possesion is a liability, 2 full backs who don't know how to defend, a goalkeeper who's not the best we've got, doesn't press well enough, doesn't have enough discipline and isn't coached well enough have the equal best defensive record in the most competetive league in the world over a 15 game period, especially when we set ourselves up to attack?

 

[Damian99]

Over the last 15 Premiership games no team in the league has conceded less goals than what we have, nobody!

Man Utd 11
Spurs 11

Over 15 matches those are the 2 best defensive records in the Premier league, 15 games is a long period and if you don't defend properly, work hard, have discipline, have players that are defensive liabilities etc you will get caught out!

This is especially so when you are a very attack minded team which we are, this is proven by the fact that we have scored 33 times through the same period.

IMHO people who believe that we don't work hard enough or press out of possesion when we don't have the ball aren't actually watching the games, they are more interested in what the stats say. We press when the time is right, you can't just press press press for gods sake, you'll be in the oxygen tent by half-time. Sometimes shape and organisation and getting in to that shape quickly are far more important than pressing, we are not Barcelona and we don't have 70%+ possesion so why do people want us to play like them, they are a 1 off team in the history of the game!

BC as it's your thread let me ask you a question:

How can a team that has in the main played 442 or 4411 with 2 wide chocolate teapots (your description), a central midfield player who out of possesion is a liability, 2 full backs who don't know how to defend, a goalkeeper who's not the best we've got, doesn't press well enough, doesn't have enough discipline and isn't coached well enough have the equal best defensive record in the most competetive league in the world over a 15 game period, especially when we set ourselves up to attack?

May also have been slightly better had we had King, Sandro and Parker in those first two games aswell.


But it's not about reality though, it's all about stats, stats are where it's at mate. :wink:

 

[vegassd]

IMHO people who believe that we don't work hard enough or press out of possesion when we don't have the ball aren't actually watching the games, they are more interested in what the stats say. We press when the time is right, you can't just press press press for gods sake, you'll be in the oxygen tent by half-time.

I think this is a great point... especially if you expand it out to cover the whole season. Occasionally one team will be able to "leave it all on the pitch" but no team can do that in every single game.

We have to accept that we will concede goals and we will lose games. There will be times that players make mistakes and times that the manager does. But to use the old cliche - "it's how you react" - we have seen a staff that has been on an exceptional run since the 2 Manchester games.

I'm all up for the idea of continual improvement but it does still amaze me that we can still be picking holes in the overall picture of this season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Over the last 15 Premiership games no team in the league has conceded less goals than what we have, nobody!

Man Utd 11
Spurs 11

Over 15 matches those are the 2 best defensive records in the Premier league, 15 games is a long period and if you don't defend properly, work hard, have discipline, have players that are defensive liabilities etc you will get caught out!

This is especially so when you are a very attack minded team which we are, this is proven by the fact that we have scored 33 times through the same period.

IMHO people who believe that we don't work hard enough or press out of possesion when we don't have the ball aren't actually watching the games, they are more interested in what the stats say. We press when the time is right, you can't just press press press for gods sake, you'll be in the oxygen tent by half-time. Sometimes shape and organisation and getting in to that shape quickly are far more important than pressing, we are not Barcelona and we don't have 70%+ possesion so why do people want us to play like them, they are a 1 off team in the history of the game!

BC as it's your thread let me ask you a question:

How can a team that has in the main played 442 or 4411 with 2 wide chocolate teapots (your description), a central midfield player who out of possesion is a liability, 2 full backs who don't know how to defend, a goalkeeper who's not the best we've got, doesn't press well enough, doesn't have enough discipline and isn't coached well enough have the equal best defensive record in the most competetive league in the world over a 15 game period, especially when we set ourselves up to attack?

Why have you not included the first two games of the season, the ones where we conceded 8 goals, including five at home ? Is that because it then means that teams like Sunderland (15th) and Swansea(14th) have almost identical goals against per game ratios and weakens your point ?

And why the over reaction ?

Go back and read what I said in the OP. I am not saying we are shit, we don't ever press, in fact I have said the opposite, I have seen us do it. What I want is for us to do it the way we do it sometimes all the time.

There are loads of factors why we don't concede more goals. We are a possession side, as I said at the end of the first section of the OP, our best defence is that we keep the ball well usually. We have three of the best CB's in the EPL. We have two of the best busy ****'s in the EPL. We have two of the best ball retaining passing players in the EPL, in fact 3 if you include Parker. We have one of the best ball retaining/passing strikers. We do press quite well for periods of games, we do defend quite well for periods.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:

Why do you think we don't press as well some games and for periods in games as we did say against Liverpool or in odd spells in other games ?

Are you honestly comfortable with the way/frequency we allow crosses continually into our box and the way we stand off teams collectively sometimes ?

 

[sloth]

442, generally speaking, precludes the pressing game; pressing with only two in central midfield can be suicidal.

442 can be a very effective formation, it means you have an extra attacker and often more width, but if you're not going to use two tacklers in CM when you play it, then we have to accept that we'll play the passive defence rather than the pressing one.

Nothing wrong with that, pressing isn't the be all and end all.

A passive defence tends to be deeper, will protect the areas of the pitch we don't want our opponents to get into and shuffle them to the areas we're happier to let them have the ball in. It's generally about being difficult to break down and waiting for an error from your opponent.

Once you win the ball, you'll often be able to strike back quickly and with the extra attacker be better placed to make the most of it.

When building from the back that extra attacker is also a useful thing to have.

You can't routinely press however, because if the opponent breaks past you, you'll find yourself outnumbered and in a heap of trouble.

Sides which press will generally play 3 in CM, though they may pair tacklers in a central two.

Each formation has its merits and it's interesting to look at this site: http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/30 (scroll to bottom and click seasonal tab) to see our most effective formations this season.

Of course the formation we play will also be reflective of our opponent, location and available personnel so we shouldn't read too much into the fact that 4-4-2 has been clearly the best.

But nor should we ignore that evidence; at the very least we can see just how effective it has been in the matches we've employed it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

442, generally speaking, precludes the pressing game; pressing with only two in central midfield can be suicidal.

442 can be a very effective formation, it means you have an extra attacker and often more width, but if you're not going to use two tacklers in CM when you play it, then we have to accept that we'll play the passive defence rather than the pressing one.

Nothing wrong with that, pressing isn't the be all and end all.

A passive defence tends to be deeper, will protect the areas of the pitch we don't want our opponents to get into and shuffle them to the areas we're happier to let them have the ball in. It's generally about being difficult to break down and waiting for an error from your opponent.

Once you win the ball, you'll often be able to strike back quickly and with the extra attacker be better placed to make the most of it.

When building from the back that extra attacker is also a useful thing to have.

You can't routinely press however, because if the opponent breaks past you, you'll find yourself outnumbered and in a heap of trouble.

Sides which press will generally play 3 in CM, though they may pair tacklers in a central two.

Each formation has its merits and it's interesting to look at this site: http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/30 (scroll to bottom and click seasonal tab) to see our most effective formations this season.

Of course the formation we play will also be reflective of our opponent, location and available personnel so we shouldn't read too much into the fact that 4-4-2 has been clearly the best.

But nor should we ignore that evidence; at the very least we can see just how effective it has been in the matches we've employed it.

Sloth, I have to disagree with this. I think there is a massive difference between the uber high tempo barca-esque pressing which is more conducive to a non 442 format and just a generally efficient adaption of pressing which is formation neutral - basically just never standing off and watching players walz past you or standing ten yards from the flank and allowing crosses to come into your box.

And there have been loads of 442 based sides who have been perfectly proficient at pressing the opposition. Just go and watch Bayern Munich this year or some AC Milan sides down the years, or Mourinho's Madrid side that contained Ronaldo and a striker. AC Milan play a 433 that is virtually a 424 at times and won the scudetto last year, but the still operate a pressing type of tempo.

Chelsea play a 433 and AVB has adapted them from pressing high to sitting deeper (his mid/deep block he calls it I think) to accommodate Terry mainly, but they still press the ball and certainly don't stand off.

433 has become quite voguish, which effectively can mean playing with one true CM or destroyer yet teams still apply a reasonable pressing game.

I'm not talking about us becoming Barca, I'm talking about some pretty basic stuff and at times have given examples as have others of when our players just jog instead of running to close a player down. Bale and Lennon do this a lot, Lennon is sometimes better than Bale but they rarely actually press, they just jog and jockey. Modric will put a foot in sometimes and will make a real effort sometimes to press and harry but other times I have watched him literally just stand and watch a player walk past him.

I just think that certain managers, the ones that generally achieve things, just would not find some of that acceptable, and I know that Redknapp has at times also not found it acceptable and has said so a couple of times this season - I think both West Brom and Stoke he said he was unhappy with us standing off and got into them at half time, and also said he didn;t enjoy watching the Fulham game for the same reason didnt he ? .

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that we can be lazy when not in possession sometimes. Or the only one that feels we allow too many easy crossing opportunities.

 

[Legend10]

Why have you not included the first two games of the season, the ones where we conceded 8 goals, including five at home ? Is that because it then means that teams like Sunderland (15th) and Swansea(14th) have almost identical goals against per game ratios and weakens your point ?

And why the over reaction ?

Go back and read what I said in the OP. I am not saying we are shit, we don't ever press, in fact I have said the opposite, I have seen us do it. What I want is for us to do it the way we do it sometimes all the time.

There are loads of factors why we don't concede more goals. We are a possession side, as I said at the end of the first section of the OP, our best defence is that we keep the ball well usually. We have three of the best CB's in the EPL. We have two of the best busy ****'s in the EPL. We have two of the best ball retaining passing players in the EPL, in fact 3 if you include Parker. We have one of the best ball retaining/passing strikers. We do press quite well for periods of games, we do defend quite well for periods.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:

Why do you think we don't press as well some games and for periods in games as we did say against Liverpool or in odd spells in other games ?

Are you honestly comfortable with the way/frequency we allow crosses continually into our box and the way we stand off teams collectively sometimes ?

Couple of points, firstly it's not an over reaction it's genuine points and questions and secondly I didn't include the first 2 games because a) 15 games is a very telling period and b) we were in absolute chaos at the start of the season and the window hadn't closed. Over 15 games we have much better defensive records than Sunderland and Swansea and that's the 15 games since the window closed. Whether we like it or not the transfer window can affect how teams start and it damaged us more than most this season, but once we had done our business and Luka was forced into staying we have done great.

To answer your questions although I don't believe you really answered mine when you've been pretty critical of certain individuals, the formation played on many occasions and the coaching.

A) Because it's not always possible to do so. If you have a Rolls Royce and a Skoda all sensible people would agree that the Rolls Royce is an infinitely better car, however here's the but and there is a but, they both run on gas! If the Rolls Royce runs out of gas but the Skoda still has some in the tank, then all of a sudden until the RR gets some gas the Skoda has become the better car! It's the same with football, you can't just press press press all the time because you will eventually gas and lesser teams will all of a sudden be better than or equal to you heightening the possibility of bad results. There are times and places to press and it's not all the time, teams do it against us, City, and Utd and eventually most of them gas but they have no choice but to try to play that way because in an even paced football match they will be outplayed and classed and therefore more often than not lose. So they have no choice but to try and make the game 100 miles an hour all over the pitch and shake the better side up. Barcelona are the one exception of top sides who press press press, it's because they are totally unique. Unique in that even against the worlds best teams they will have 70%+ possesion and in most games they will have 75%+. When you have this much ball you can press like crazy to win it back because you're hardly ever doing it and secondly they've normally got so many players in advanced positions they're all around the ball when they lose it anyway, so they initially swarm all over the opposition to try and get it back. But if you watch Barca a lot like I do you will see if they don't win it back virtually straight away then they will retreat into their defensive shape. This is what we do the majority of the time we get ourselves into a good collective shape and this is one of the major reasons why we conceded so few goals, it's actually because we are well organised and with King, Gallas and Parker out there that doesn't surprise me.

Pressing for pressing sake doesn't have longevity and also players will become more fatigued when in possesion, which is a very bad situation and not to be underestimated! Back to Barca, watch Messi play, just him not Barca and see how often in a game he's standing still or walking, I think people would be very surprised. Then ask why does Messi a) never ever run out of steam and always seem alive b) play virtually 90 minutes in every single game? Pep hardly ever ever rests him or takes him off, there's no need because he's not just the worlds best player but he's fully in control of his physical capabilities as well. Messi will press for a few moments and then he'll give it up and wait for a better opportunity to do his work.

B) Is 2 parts really, the second part about standing off teams is easy for me. If it's because we have a good shape to defend with or are just holding up the game to get that shape then yes I am very happy with this. In fact I think it's vitally important to us because we attack with numbers including our FB's. Therefore we need to give them time to get back into a shape that we can defend properly with. What I wouldn't want to see is us with both our FB's in advanced positions lose the ball, press like crazy to get it back, not do so and end up in a position whereby the other team are running at us and we have no FB's there and have lost a CM who's gone to press it and got done, we could very easily be causght out like this. For us I prefer shape and patience because when we get it, we keep it and work the opposition and also playing this way invites teams to push up on us which gives us a chance to break on teams which is one of our best weapons. Pressing pressing pressing could also remove that breaking weapon from our arsenal (please excuse that word)!

The other part about the crosses, yep sometimes it frustrates me but in the overall scale of things I find it quite a minor point. I disagree strongly that Lennon isn't good defensively, I think he does a great job. The one player who should close better in these situations is Bale and possibly BAE as well. Then I think about how it hurts us and what Bale brings to the team in a positive aspect and I'll take this slight glitch in his game all day long. After all if we are conceding that many crosses yet only allowed 11 goals in 15 games we must be coping with them pretty well don't you think?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Couple of points, firstly it's not an over reaction it's genuine points and questions and secondly I didn't include the first 2 games because a) 15 games is a very telling period and b) we were in absolute chaos at the start of the season and the window hadn't closed. Over 15 games we have much better defensive records than Sunderland and Swansea and that's the 15 games since the window closed. Whether we like it or not the transfer window can affect how teams start and it damaged us more than most this season, but once we had done our business and Luka was forced into staying we have done great.

To answer your questions although I don't believe you really answered mine when you've been pretty critical of certain individuals, the formation played on many occasions and the coaching.

A) Because it's not always possible to do so. If you have a Rolls Royce and a Skoda all sensible people would agree that the Rolls Royce is an infinitely better car, however here's the but and there is a but, they both run on gas! If the Rolls Royce runs out of gas but the Skoda still has some in the tank, then all of a sudden until the RR gets some gas the Skoda has become the better car! It's the same with football, you can't just press press press all the time because you will eventually gas and lesser teams will all of a sudden be better than or equal to you heightening the possibility of bad results. There are times and places to press and it's not all the time, teams do it against us, City, and Utd and eventually most of them gas but they have no choice but to try to play that way because in an even paced football match they will be outplayed and classed and therefore more often than not lose. So they have no choice but to try and make the game 100 miles an hour all over the pitch and shake the better side up. Barcelona are the one exception of top sides who press press press, it's because they are totally unique. Unique in that even against the worlds best teams they will have 70%+ possesion and in most games they will have 75%+. When you have this much ball you can press like crazy to win it back because you're hardly ever doing it and secondly they've normally got so many players in advanced positions they're all around the ball when they lose it anyway, so they initially swarm all over the opposition to try and get it back. But if you watch Barca a lot like I do you will see if they don't win it back virtually straight away then they will retreat into their defensive shape. This is what we do the majority of the time we get ourselves into a good collective shape and this is one of the major reasons why we conceded so few goals, it's actually because we are well organised and with King, Gallas and Parker out there that doesn't surprise me.

Pressing for pressing sake doesn't have longevity and also players will become more fatigued when in possesion, which is a very bad situation and not to be underestimated! Back to Barca, watch Messi play, just him not Barca and see how often in a game he's standing still or walking, I think people would be very surprised. Then ask why does Messi a) never ever run out of steam and always seem alive b) play virtually 90 minutes in every single game? Pep hardly ever ever rests him or takes him off, there's no need because he's not just the worlds best player but he's fully in control of his physical capabilities as well. Messi will press for a few moments and then he'll give it up and wait for a better opportunity to do his work.

B) Is 2 parts really, the second part about standing off teams is easy for me. If it's because we have a good shape to defend with or are just holding up the game to get that shape then yes I am very happy with this. In fact I think it's vitally important to us because we attack with numbers including our FB's. Therefore we need to give them time to get back into a shape that we can defend properly with. What I wouldn't want to see is us with both our FB's in advanced positions lose the ball, press like crazy to get it back, not do so and end up in a position whereby the other team are running at us and we have no FB's there and have lost a CM who's gone to press it and got done, we could very easily be causght out like this. For us I prefer shape and patience because when we get it, we keep it and work the opposition and also playing this way invites teams to push up on us which gives us a chance to break on teams which is one of our best weapons. Pressing pressing pressing could also remove that breaking weapon from our arsenal (please excuse that word)!

The other part about the crosses, yep sometimes it frustrates me but in the overall scale of things I find it quite a minor point. I disagree strongly that Lennon isn't good defensively, I think he does a great job. The one player who should close better in these situations is Bale and possibly BAE as well. Then I think about how it hurts us and what Bale brings to the team in a positive aspect and I'll take this slight glitch in his game all day long. After all if we are conceding that many crosses yet only allowed 11 goals in 15 games we must be coping with them pretty well don't you think?

With regards to the ManU and ManC games it's too convenient to exclude what just happens to the two top sides in the league who just happened to stick 8 goals past us. They had players missing, ManC have been in Tevez turmoil for half a season, it hasn't stopped them playing great football and being top of the league.

I don't agree with the RR/Skoda analogy and some of your post just doesn't really relate to what I have said or the point I have made.

Why does everyone, you included, almost without fail, seem to want to use Barca as the "pressing" yardstick, despite me giving examples and explaining why they are not relevant to what I am talking about.

Watch many top Italian sides over the last 15-20 years, the better German sides, the top Spanish sides, Manchester United, Arsenal & Chelsea's best sides. They all operated a level of work rate and pressing - when out of possession - higher than we do in many games and in many spells in games.

I am not talking about BARCA. I am talking about standing off and allowing players to get balls into our box unchallenged. I am talking about not just jockey back in the vague direction of an opponent but actually getting close to him and not allowing him settled time on the ball to make easy choices or crosses.

I'm talking about Luka Modric in the 52nd minute of the game against Chelsea (an example I remember giving off the top of my head) just watching as a chelsea player walked past him to the edge of our box. And this is definitely not an isolated incident.

I do not want us to press recklessly like headless chickens. I do not expect us to be Barca. I do not want us to loose a good defensive shape (someting else we don't always do either - but I'm sure you'll tell me Lancia Stratos was a funny shape but a great rally car).

If you think I'm wrong, then you must think Redknapp is wrong because he has actually said that's what he wants us to do on more than one occasion - including this season post match when talking about games like West Brom.

And we have the shining example of the Liverpool game. Possibly the best 90 minutes of football at WHL under Redknapp. I think he even said so. Even the commentators the other night said it was the best football they'd watched this season.

Surely that was a shining example of what we can achieve when we apply a higher degree of work rate to the pressing side of our game. There was no running out of gas, no being outplayed by a skoda, just 90 minutes of outplaying a side fancied as being our closest RR competitor.

Sloth
That Liverpool game was a perfect example of a 442 that pressed well - we also had Modric in CM as well.

 

[sloth]

Sloth
That Liverpool game was a perfect example of a 442 that pressed well - we also had Modric in CM as well.

I was pretty careful to use words like "consistently" and "in general".*

*Or words to that effect anyway.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

@BC - you can't compare the first 2 games to our subsequent ones because 1) we didn't have Parker / Sandro was injured - remember we played Modric and Kranky in CM against Citeh 2) we didn't have Ade so no hold up play and 3) Modric clearly wasn't fully focussed.

As to the issue of pressing, you cite the Liverpool game but seem to forget we had an extra man for most of the game, in a number of other games we have pressed for 45 minutes and then tired, one example would be away at Blackburn. To play a pressing game you need the right players and if there is one player who I don't see doing that regardless of however much coaching you do it is VdV yet you would be the first to have him ahead of Defoe who IMO does press. So there is no perfect solution, do you stick with players like VdV and Modric who don't press or replace them with less skilful players who do ?

As an aside I'm not convinced by the physical conditioning of our players, this is one aspect that I think has deteriorated since Ramos left.

 

[sloth]

As an aside I'm not convinced by the physical conditioning of our players, this is one aspect that I think has deteriorated since Ramos left.

Redknapp fails to marry them with endemic coached tactical awareness, simple organisational discipline, work rate and responsibility. These qualities are sometimes there or are there in spirit, but I honestly believe they are the difference between us being a maybe or definite article. We are a top 3 side when we are in possession sometimes, but we are a mid table side when we don't have it sometimes, as we have seen at various times this season and if we could address this, we would be truly formidable. Hard work and an ingrained ethos is the only way to banish that air of vulnerability that we still carry.

Simple things like pressing the flanks and not allowing crosses to come so easily, it has been our downfall all season and even last night against a poor side we allowed too many.

Last night was the right tactical formation and personnel for the occasion.
I want Norwich away tactics most weeks, but Liverpool at home coaching every week.

A+ for tactics, but still a C+ for coaching
(I'm still calling that progress)

I did wonder how BC would deal with our manager changing formation as it doesn't play well with the mantra of no tactical nous. So here is the BC response, a hilarious attempt at a Henry Winter impersonation.

Here's a tip BC, if you're going to eat humble pie do it with grace and leave out the "I'm sure Redknapp is still a muppet" Epilogue, it makes a nonsense of the semi-apology that came before.

:think:

 

[jonathanhotspur]

:think:

Ouch. Someone's been served.

 

[vegassd]

Is it not better to hold a good shape (defensively) throughout a game and press in numbers when it's appropriate? If the idea is to be constantly looking to press the ball then we only need one guy out of position and we can easily be opened up.

There have been many times this year when a couple of midfielders and a couple of forwards all go pressing at the same time and it works. It's a clear result of the coaching that you are talking about BC (so we do do it) it's just that it's not feasible to do for 100% of every game.