Serie A harder than the EPL

[Bus-Conductor]

In the last 10 years we've each had CL winners but we've had 5 runners up compared to the Italians' one.

They can pretend their style of football is better, I prefer to judge teams on their triumphs thanks.

It's a bit like saying Wigan have won more cups than us in the last 4 years so who's better ?

It's a massive over simplification of an incredibly complex issue.

It's very dangerous to judge football by knockout cup competitions, as what happens is generally they are always won by the best teams anyway it's just that it usually comes down to a shoot out over 2 games or four games (depending how and when the best teams meet each other in the latter stages) etc.

My point is more about the way tactics can be applied to effect performance and how those performances can bridge gaps that vast financial (and the individual quality those finances can buy) resources can create.

I don't think it's about "style" it's about "winning" which is what football is ultimately about. And tactical preparation is a huge part of that.

 

[dontcallme]

It's a bit like saying Wigan have won more cups than us in the last 4 years so who's better ?

It's a massive over simplification of an incredibly complex issue.

It's very dangerous to judge football by knockout cup competitions, as what happens is generally they are always won by the best teams anyway it's just that it usually comes down to a shoot out over 2 games or four games (depending how and when the best teams meet each other in the latter stages) etc.

My point is more about the way tactics can be applied to effect performance and how those performances can bridge gaps that vast financial (and the individual quality those finances can buy) resources can create.

I don't think it's about "style" it's about "winning" which is what football is ultimately about. And tactical preparation is a huge part of that.

Not the same thing as you have given one example. Over a 10 year period if one country has produced 7 finalists to another's 2 then chances are the strength of their upper-tier clubs is better.

I'm sure your aware that that CL is more than a knock-out competition.

The problem with your example of preparation resulting in winning is that the example you've given hasn't resulted in winning.

 

[Syn_13]

I like watching Napoli...if I'm going to watch a Serie A game I'll watch them.

As much as a Juve fan should never admit it, I like watching Napoli too. I also really like Fiorentina, who happen to be another of Juve's rivals.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Not the same thing as you have given one example. Over a 10 year period if one country has produced 7 finalists to another's 2 then chances are the strength of their upper-tier clubs is better.

I'm sure your aware that that CL is more than a knock-out competition.

The problem with your example of preparation resulting in winning is that the example you've given hasn't resulted in winning.

Of course I am, as well as being a knock out competition, it's also football's biggest cash cow.

And I believe Italian clubs have been generally outperforming English clubs in Eurpean competitions which is why everyone was getting worried about the coefficient rankings.

But look at the gulf in quality between the best. Barca & Bayern make English clubs look third world when they play them. Even Juve can turn up at ManC and win (with half their revenues and about half their wage bill).

There are lots of reasons why teams do well and money is one of them, and the financial advantage the EPL has over the rest of Europe, particularly Italy is staggering. There are five English teams with bigger revenues than Juventus. The wage bill of English clubs is double that of Italian. In the last audit published their were 8 English teams in the top 20 revenue list, 2 Italian. Which makes it quite surprising that in the last 6 years both countries have had 1 winner each and 2 finalists each.

Guardiola's Barca was repeatedly outperformed financially by Real Madrid and in some years ManU & Bayern and all of those teams had wonderful individuals acquired through phenomenal wealth, yet Barca still utterly dominated European football. Why? Because of the coached tactical application of Guardiola.

I'm not claiming that great physical and tactical preparation will always win out over other predominant factors, but the point is, I think, that it can sometimes bridge gaps that these other predominant factors create, and can also give an an edge where other factors are pretty even.

It also highlights a mindset that has existed in English football and held it back for decades. The mental side of the game. Evra (and previously people like Zidane have talked about his time in Italy and how it shaped him) talks about how they would play/plan games on the pitch but without a ball and how when Queros tried to introduce similar tactical ideas at ManU Scholes was having none of it. We know from Jenas the resistance Ramos encountered because he wanted to introduce what most of the rest of Europe does - dietary control and double training sessions.

Even in the poorest of the major five European leagues players are tactically better educated and have been for decades. We are starting to see this change at clubs like Spurs, Chelsea, ManC etc. But this attitude to intelligent preparation and tactical awareness in the UK needs to change.

 

[Lufti]

Guardiola's Barca was repeatedly outperformed financially by Real Madrid and in some years ManU & Bayern and all of those teams had wonderful individuals acquired through phenomenal wealth, yet Barca still utterly dominated European football. Why? Because of the coached tactical application of Guardiola.

And nothing to do with the team already assembled there which hardly needed tweaking..

And Ibrahimovic, Fabregas, Macherano and Villa are hardly low profile signings either

 

[dontcallme]

Of course I am, as well as being a knock out competition, it's also football's biggest cash cow.

And I believe Italian clubs have been generally outperforming English clubs in Eurpean competitions which is why everyone was getting worried about the coefficient rankings.

But look at the gulf in quality between the best. Barca & Bayern make English clubs look third world when they play them. Even Juve can turn up at ManC and win (with half their revenues and about half their wage bill).

There are lots of reasons why teams do well and money is one of them, and the financial advantage the EPL has over the rest of Europe, particularly Italy is staggering. There are five English teams with bigger revenues than Juventus. The wage bill of English clubs is double that of Italian. In the last audit published their were 8 English teams in the top 20 revenue list, 2 Italian. Which makes it quite surprising that in the last 6 years both countries have had 1 winner each and 2 finalists each.

Guardiola's Barca was repeatedly outperformed financially by Real Madrid and in some years ManU & Bayern and all of those teams had wonderful individuals acquired through phenomenal wealth, yet Barca still utterly dominated European football. Why? Because of the coached tactical application of Guardiola.

I'm not claiming that great physical and tactical preparation will always win out over other predominant factors, but the point is, I think, that it can sometimes bridge gaps that these other predominant factors create, and can also give an an edge where other factors are pretty even.

It also highlights a mindset that has existed in English football and held it back for decades. The mental side of the game. Evra (and previously people like Zidane have talked about his time in Italy and how it shaped him) talks about how they would play/plan games on the pitch but without a ball and how when Queros tried to introduce similar tactical ideas at ManU Scholes was having none of it. We know from Jenas the resistance Ramos encountered because he wanted to introduce what most of the rest of Europe does - dietary control and double training sessions.

Even in the poorest of the major five European leagues players are tactically better educated and have been for decades. We are starting to see this change at clubs like Spurs, Chelsea, ManC etc. But this attitude to intelligent preparation and tactical awareness in the UK needs to change.

Maybe you just have a shit thread title. Nothing you have said is relevant to the Italian league being harder than the EPL.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Maybe you just have a shit thread title. Nothing you have said is relevant to the Italian league being harder than the EPL.

Apart from the training and preparation, which is what the article is about.

You did read it, right?

 

[dontcallme]

Apart from the training and preparation, which is what the article is about.

You did read it, right?

I did yes.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And nothing to do with the team already assembled there which hardly needed tweaking..

And Ibrahimovic, Fabregas, Macherano and Villa are hardly low profile signings either

As I already said, in the stratosphere of uber clubs with the resources and individual talent they all had, Barca were still utterly dominant. They weren't richer, they didn't have more talented individuals in every position. What made them superior was hoe they were prepared by their coach.

 

[Lufti]

As I already said, in the stratosphere of uber clubs with the resources and individual talent they all had, Barca were still utterly dominant. They weren't richer, they didn't have more talented individuals in every position. What made them superior was hoe they were prepared by their coach.

Except that they are and they were? With the exception of perhaps a GK and LB, they practically were.

 

[spurs9]

I listened to an absolutely fascinating interview with Patrice Evra on the 5-Live podcast this week. And managed to find a transcript on Gazzetta World:

http://gazzettaworld.gazzetta.it/news/serie-a/evra-tougher-premier-league/?refresh_ce-cp

It kind of underlines why despite having vastly superior resources EPL teams can still be made to look very ordinary when they come up against European opponents. And his anecdote about Scholes ties in with the piece I did on the blog about Jenas's anecdotes about the Spurs players rejecting Ramos's double training and dietary regimes etc.



Evra: Serie A much tougher than Premier League
The former Manchester United man believes that the Premier League may be better but that the discipline and desire needed to be successful in Italy makes it the tougher division

Former Manchester United defender Patrice Evra believes that it is much harder to be a success in Italy’s Serie A than it is in the Premier League.

The 34-year-old played at Old Trafford for eight years and was a big success with the Red Devils, before leaving last year to take up a new challenge in Turin.

He helped Juventus to the Scudetto, Coppa Italia and Supercoppa Italiana as well as reaching a Champions League final, where they were beaten by Barcelona.

“I really enjoyed my first year and I’m still enjoying myself,” Evra told BBC Radio 5 Live. “I’ve learned a lot about football and how to be an even better professional, even although I was still a massive professional during my time in Manchester.

“The Premier League is like two boxers fighting. I give it to you and then you give it right back to me, but one is less strong and they’ll start to get tired and you’ll win the game.

“In Italy, it is like a chess game. You have to understand every movement before you play with your quality. I really want to learn and until the end of my career, than’s something I want to do every day.

“When I finish playing football, I’ll probably want to have an experience as a coach and I couldn’t go to a better place than Juventus to learn and to help me take that path. I’m so amazed with how we do things.

“We even watch videos of training sessions to see what is or isn’t going well. Before we play in a game, we know the other team so well and I never used to prepare for a game in that way.

“Italian football is so different in that way. For sure, I’ll say that English football is the best because people like to go and see people running everywhere but if you said it was more difficult than Italian football, I’d say no.

“The Premier League has so much adrenaline and passion with the fans but I can’t say it is the most difficult. People only have to come to Italy and see how tough it is for us against teams lower down the table because they are ready. They know my movement, they know my position. It is amazing the way they learn the game and make you prepare before it starts.”

In fact, 18 months or so later, the former Monaco man is still adjusting to just how intense and concentrated the preparation for each individual match is and shared some Juventus trade secrets – including bizarre training routines that he believes would be scoffed at if someone tried to implement them in the Premier League.

“Now before a game, I know exactly what I have to do,” continued the Frenchman. “Before, I was playing with my strength but now, and having more experience helps too, I’m playing with my brain. Everything in Italian football comes down to tactics.

“When you start training, we play a lot of 11 against 0 games. People will maybe laugh when they hear me say that we play on the pitch with nobody against us. But you have to get your movements right and repeat that for maybe 15 minutes, then when the coach thinks we know exactly where to be and pass the ball and everything, then you start training but that’s our warm-up.

“If you tried that in England, people wouldn’t understand. They’d say you are crazy. I remember Scholesy [Paul Scholes] kicking the ball away when Carlos [Queiroz] tried to do a game like that. Your brain has to be open to that.”

Coming from a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere during his time with Manchester United, Evra confessed that it took him time to come to terms with that was expected of him in Turin and learn his role.

However, he now completely understands what is expected of him and what is expected of any player at Juventus, who he likened to a bead necklace, where you are only as strong as your weakest link.

“At the beginning, I felt like a robot,” he admitted. “They told me, ‘pass the ball to him, then give it to him’ and I was a bit confused. I just wanted to play my football but they told me that Juventus is like a necklace.

“If one piece is broken, the whole thing is broken. It is exactly that way. That’s why every new player, when they come to Juventus, has to learn the way we play first. You can be good, strong, fast but if you don’t understand the system then you won’t play because the big star is the team, it isn’t one player.”

That is juts 1 players experience of 1 team in the PL and 1 teak in Serie A. Some players would find tactical training/game more difficult, some the physical aspects would be harder and some the technical aspects would be more difficult. If Pirlo played in the PL, he might find that the more difficult league, Shevchenko might have a different perspective and maybe Soldado would have had more joy in Italy.

 

[dontcallme]

That is juts 1 players experience of 1 team in the PL and 1 teak in Serie A. Some players would find tactical training/game more difficult, some the physical aspects would be harder and some the technical aspects would be more difficult. If Pirlo played in the PL, he might find that the more difficult league, Shevchenko might have a different perspective and maybe Soldado would have had more joy in Italy.

Also strange for Evra to talk about Scholes, a player massively respected throughout the continent for his technical ability.

 

[tooey]

As I already said, in the stratosphere of uber clubs with the resources and individual talent they all had, Barca were still utterly dominant. They weren't richer, they didn't have more talented individuals in every position. What made them superior was hoe they were prepared by their coach.

They didn't have more talented individuals in every position but they certainly did in the majority! Back on topic, of course preparation is key, of course applying the correct tactics will result in better results but I'd find it hard to believe that Serie A clubs prepare any more thoroughly than EPL sides.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

That is juts 1 players experience of 1 team in the PL and 1 teak in Serie A. Some players would find tactical training/game more difficult, some the physical aspects would be harder and some the technical aspects would be more difficult. If Pirlo played in the PL, he might find that the more difficult league, Shevchenko might have a different perspective and maybe Soldado would have had more joy in Italy.

If you listen to the podcast (FiveLive European Football show - from last wednesday I believe) you'll here a lot more discussion about the very different preparation of Italian and other European sides to English ones.

I've heard and read loads about it over the years. It formed part of one of my first rants on the blog as Jenas was talking about how the Spurs players rejected Ramos's ideas about nutrition and double training (double training is pretty much standard in most other major European leagues I believe).

I've talked before and quoted French players talking about how they are taught "tactically" in their academies from an early age - it's one of the reasons why France continues to churn out more footballing exports than other country.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Except that they are and they were? With the exception of perhaps a GK and LB, they practically were.

Not than the other other uber teams. They had fourth highest revenues in the last audit (13-14) for example and you can't say man for man they had better individuals all over the park than Real did for example.

And even better example would be Atletico winning the league two seasons ago. Again a triumph of tactical preparation and application over financial power and individual brilliance.

 

[Hoops]

Bullshit. Italian football is in the doldrums.

 

[Lufti]

Not than the other other uber teams. They had fourth highest revenues in the last audit (13-14) for example and you can't say man for man they had better individuals all over the park than Real did for example.

And even better example would be Atletico winning the league two seasons ago. Again a triumph of tactical preparation and application over financial power and individual brilliance.

Uber teams

Valdes

Dani Alves
Pique
Puyol
Abidal

Toure
Iniesta
Xavi

Henry
Eto'o
Messi

This is an 11 comprised of the players who started the most games (subject to position of course) in the 08/09 season when Barcelona won the sextuplet . Despite the two players in bold who aren't that impressive, I think you'd find it hard to find a lineup as strong as that anywhere in Europe. Here's Madrid's for comparison:

Casillas

Heinze
Pepe
Cannavaro
Sergio Ramos

Fernando Gago
Sneijder
Van Der Vaart
Robben

Raul
Higuain

Soooo yeah...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Uber teams

Valdes

Dani Alves
Pique
Puyol
Abidal

Toure
Iniesta
Xavi

Henry
Eto'o
Messi

This is an 11 comprised of the players who started the most games (subject to position of course) in the 08/09 season when Barcelona won the sextuplet . Despite the two players in bold who aren't that impressive, I think you'd find it hard to find a lineup as strong as that anywhere in Europe. Here's Madrid's for comparison:

Casillas

Heinze
Pepe
Cannavaro
Sergio Ramos

Fernando Gago
Sneijder
Van Der Vaart
Robben

Raul
Higuain

Soooo yeah...

Because that was the only year Barcelona dominated Spanish football ?

Come on, how about the team with Marcelo, Khadira, Ronaldo, Alonso, Benzema, Modric, Isco, Rodriguez, that didn't get close to achieving what Guardiola's Barca did.

Are you saying you don't think Guardiola's was not a major factor in Barca's success?

 

[spurs9]

If you listen to the podcast (FiveLive European Football show - from last wednesday I believe) you'll here a lot more discussion about the very different preparation of Italian and other European sides to English ones.

I've heard and read loads about it over the years. It formed part of one of my first rants on the blog as Jenas was talking about how the Spurs players rejected Ramos's ideas about nutrition and double training (double training is pretty much standard in most other major European leagues I believe).

I've talked before and quoted French players talking about how they are taught "tactically" in their academies from an early age - it's one of the reasons why France continues to churn out more footballing exports than other country.

Only 8 of the managers in the PL are English, and surely those 12 that aren't wouldn't abandon the way the coach to adopt and "English" way of coaching?

According to King's autobiography, it wasn't the ideas or training the Spurs players rejected, it was the way Ramos went about it, trying to stamp his authority when it wasn't required and this crested resistance. Another problem Ramos has was that his assistant (Poyet) wasn't one he had worked with and both would tell the players 2 different things, so no-one was sure what to do.

On your point about players being taught "tactically" in their academies, most players in the PL aren't from the PL academies, they are from overseas.

A lot of what you are saying is very valid if talking about producing footballers for our national team, however it doesn't point to Serie A being a tougher league.

 

[Lufti]

Because that was the only year Barcelona dominated Spanish football ?

Come on, how about the team with Marcelo, Khadira, Ronaldo, Alonso, Benzema, Modric, Isco, Rodriguez, that didn't get close to achieving what Guardiola's Barca did.

Are you saying you don't think Guardiola's was not a major factor in Barca's success?

Modric didn't even play for Real Madrid when Guardiola managed Barca. Of course credit is due to Guardiola, same with any manager who achieves success at any club. But you're making it seem like it was a bunch of misfits coached into brilliance by some real life Gordon Bombaby when the truth of the matter is the club had already assembled one of the greatest groups of players football has ever seen, and Guardiola's success perfectly coincided with Messi's coming of age. That's not to say Guardiola wasn't at all responsible for Messi being what he is, or was, but he is, or certainly was, the best player in the world and had a lot of the best players in the world playing along side him. Look at what Spain did, they won 3 international competitions in a row but wait a second, Guardiola wasn't managing them, and oh, they didn't have the best player in the world in their team. And did most of their squad come from Barcelona? Yes, yes they did