Sold on AVB but not Levy yet.

[Harry_Snatch]

Porto didn't drop their demands from the buyout clause until the final day of the window. The buyout clause was £32 million. That is not his market value - therefore you idea that Levy should have bought him before the final day of the window would have necessitated paying more than his market value, but your argument was that Levy was at fault for not paying the market value. Thererfore you argument is moribund. You have never once, no matter how many times I have asked you, adressed this. If you wanted him to pay the buyout clause, by definition, you wanted him to pay above the market value. So, how can your orignal post have any validity if you can't account for this contradiction?

I know, you aren't going to answer - a good way for you to still not accept that your OP has no real validity because it contradicts itself
I explained several times that I do not agree with everyhthing Levy does (or his process). I pointed to the fact that the end result of that process is that the club has improved in every meaningful way.

I explained that I don't have too much time on my hands - I just happend to work at home, as my home boss, and sometimes get dragged into these debates whent they are better things to do. But, that wouldn't happen if posterslike you actually read what is said, and either argued constructively to refute or, like, in stead of jsut believing they thoght it so it must be right, considered ameliorating or altering their opinion, as I would if someone had so comprehensively shown my opinion to be moribund.

I never once said I was more intelligent than you. I said your arguments were simplistic, and then showed how they were. You were at perfect liberty to do the same to mine. You didn't - I am presuming that was because you couldn't.

I have considered your opinion. I have considered it every time you have stated it. I deconstructed it - if it stood up to analysis I would have acknowledged that. It didn't, I rejected it. Deal with, eh!

Do you believe this as much as you believe that you have successfully dissected all of my arguments?

 

[vegassd]

I was saying that I was hoping he would be prepared to pay market value for a player over 15-16m. His lack of willingness to do this but overt willingness to suggest that he would, is the crux of my frustration with his leadership.

Levy was willing to pay over 16m for Moutinho. He made a bid at 22m (or whatever it may have been). He didn't make the 32m deal early on because he deemed it not right for the club.

I'm not sure where the 'overt willingness to suggest that he would' comes from. Did he come out in the media to say that he was going to spend 20m+ on a player?

I know how you feel about others never changing their opinion despite your arguments (NevilleB has driven me to the same point!) but I would like to hear what you think about the above points.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Levy was willing to pay over 16m for Moutinho. He made a bid at 22m (or whatever it may have been). He didn't make the 32m deal early on because he deemed it not right for the club.

I'm not sure where the 'overt willingness to suggest that he would' comes from. Did he come out in the media to say that he was going to spend 20m+ on a player?

I know how you feel about others never changing their opinion despite your arguments (NevilleB has driven me to the same point!) but I would like to hear what you think about the above points.

Levy paid 17m for Bent and probably feels like he got stung. The 22m deal for Moutinho is that it didn't happen because it was too late in the window. This is my issue because it is an all too familiar pattern. Attempted big deal for next level player falls through because the deal is too late in the window. It could be either by design or accident. I am starting to suspect the former. Sure, he got VDV for 8m doing business this way but that's partly because Real probably knew that the player was always going to struggle with fitness. None of the other attempts have come off.

This is where the overt willingness comes from. He made no effort to discourage Redknapp from talking about a marquee signing and had obviously advised him that he was willing to spend big. He was happy for story's to leak about these ridiculous, wheelbarrow full of cash attempts for Aguero, Rossi and Llorrente. Yet when there is a realistic possibility of signing a next level player like Leandro or Moutinho he always seems to want to leave it too late.

 

[vegassd]

The 22m deal for Moutinho is that it didn't happen because it was too late in the window. This is my issue because it is an all too familiar pattern. Attempted big deal for next level player falls through because the deal is too late in the window. It could be either by design or accident. I am starting to suspect the former.

I do agree that the lateness of the Moutinho deal meant that there wasn't any wiggle room for cock-ups like the paperwork thing that happened. In my opinion though, the deal wasn't available until late on. If his buy-out is 32m then why would they accept anything less than that early in the window? And I guess the deal didn't stack up at 32m.

I think you're right about Bent, although we did (somehow) manage to get a fair chunk of that back. Bentley can be added to that list, along with (probably) Pav and to an extent Bassong. And I think that as fans we often forget these loss making players when we talk about transfer pots. The question 'where has all the Modric money gone?' can probably be answered with 'the loss on David Bentley'.

There are just so many things that have to be taken into consideration when evaluating our transfer windows that we probably aren't even scratching the surface. That's why it grinds me so much when Levy gets a bashing because we didn't sign Player X or we sold Player Y. When he gets accused of deliberately messing things up it's even worse.

So sorry if I've been rude to you at all - it's nothing personal. I'm well and truly in the pro-Levy camp, and as yet I haven't seen any hard evidence to show that he is deliberately having a detrimental effect on Spurs. He has made mistakes, but I still believe his good judgements far outweigh his bad ones.

 

[StartingPrice]

Do you believe this as much as you believe that you have successfully dissected all of my arguments?

If you could show where I haven't totally and utterly deconstructed your arguments - again - I am all ears. Rather, that is, than acting like a child at a pantomime and shouting Oh no you haven't

And, yes, of course I believe it you numpty - I'm trying to run a successful enterprise via the Internet from home, explaining why I am online so much. It would be better if I didn't spend two hours comprehensively explaining to someone like you how completely you are wrong, only for you to ignore all the complex and logical arguments persented to you, and, isntead, write long posts, basically, saying your posts are long, boo hoo, you made spelling and grammar errors, ha ha, you have too much time on your hands (not that I know jack shit about who you are or what you do - but the truth hasn't stopped me so far), you haven't totally deconstructed my argument honest guv. How tedious - I am conflicted between not letting you get away with this stinky BS, via never actually addressing the issue, and thinking whatever, it's just some limited guy on the internet spouting bollocks.

So, one last time, try to address the cruxof the critique:
1) You are suggesting that Levy should have paied the market-value for Moutinho before the last day of the window. But before the last day of the window Porto was demanding the buyout clause for Moutinho which is deliberately set to be above the market value. Therefore, the main premiss upon which you hang your argument contradicts itself. How do you account for this?

2) You don't think Levy should pay over the odds for players, and accept under the odds for players, and yet in the major premiss to your argument, see 1, above, you suggest he should have met the buyout clause even though it is deliberately set at considerably higher than market-value. So, either you wnat Levy to spend more and receive less to get deals done quicker, in which case you have to understand what the consequences of that will be; or, conversely, you don't want him to spend over the odds and accpet less for our players, in which case, why make the thread.

3) Beyond this, as I have explained to you several times, Mr Levy has a process. Some aspects of that process may be frustrating to us fans, but you cannot make a damning criticism of a process by isolating one element, only by looking at the end result. So, either you think the end result (competing for top 4, training facilities, new stadium, youth set-up, blah blah fecking blah) is a catastrophe, in which case please allow me to be the first to congratulate you on locating your one brain cell and experimenting on having ideas with it; or, conversely, you recognise that the process shows that the minor irritation with aspects of the process are worth enduring due to the end results. In which case, together with the fact that the major premiss to your argument about that single aspect of the process contradicts itself, why are you whingeing about a minor irritation.

Frankly, your primary beef with is that you expected to make this post and have everyone to stand back in amazement and awe at your genius, and you can't get over being shown to be talkking complete and utter shite

Levy paid 17m for Bent and 1) probably feels like he got stung. 2) The 22m deal for Moutinho is that it didn't happen because it was too late in the window. 3) This is my issue because it is an all too familiar pattern. Attempted big deal for next level player falls through because the deal is too late in the window. 4) It could be either by design or accident. I am starting to suspect the former. Sure, he got VDV for 8m doing business this way but that's partly because Real probably knew that the player was always going to struggle with fitness. None of the other attempts have come off.

This is where the overt willingness comes from. 5) He made no effort to discourage Redknapp from talking about a marquee signing and had obviously advised him that he was willing to spend big. 6) He was happy for story's to leak about these ridiculous, wheelbarrow full of cash attempts for Aguero, Rossi and Llorrente. 7) Yet when there is a realistic possibility of signing a next level player like Leandro or Moutinho he always seems to want to leave it too late.

1) Probably? Another one of your amazing suppositions? Alternatively, maybe he recognises that that is the nature of buying players, whether spending big or not, some come of, some don't. He spent bigger for Modric, that worked out well. He got most of the money back for Bent. Yeah, great supposition and example.

2) NO...as explained to you dozens of times now, it did not happen because Porto (probably deliberately) messed the paperwork up. He didn't act on the deal before the last day because Porto were demanding the full buyout clause which was considerably more than market-value. You need to decide whether you really are saying you wanted him to pay over the odds or not. He didn't get the money for Modric until the last few days - should he have accepted less earlier? And should he have used that money to buy Moutinho earlier even though it would have meant paying the full buyout clause, which was over the odds? Well done genius, you've just cost the club millions of pounds anda favaourable side deal with Real Madrid! Easy lark this being a Premier League Chairman

3) Always? Like Modric, you mean, or Sigurdsson and Vertonghen this Summer? It didn't fall through because it was too late...it fell through because Porto wouldn't lower their asking price until the last day, then accepted a fee before deciding to up it, then submitted faulty paperwork. Yeah, I can see how that is all Dan Levy's fault

4) Really? Then you are delusional! Levy doesn't really want the club to succeed...it's all jsut a conspiracy Do folk really believe that...

5) Er...I think he made efforts to shut Mr Redknapp up (apparently the media Whorishness was one of the issues). Maybe, also, you should consider the fact that when Redknapp talked about making big bids it was, like, because we made big bids.

6) Oh, don't be a cretin. If you really believe he ran about Europe on the last day of a transfer market annoying other clubs by pretending to make bids then you need to reconnect with that one brain cell you found. An alernative explanation might perhaps be that marquee signings are somewhat reluctant to join a club that isn't a CL shoe-in and/or offers massive wages. Did you consider that when constructing this grand conspiracy scheme?

7) What bollocks. Moutinho, as has been explained to you, wasn't him leaving everything too late, it was Porto wanting the full buyout clause until the last day, then accepting a bid before asking for more, and then submitting faulty paperwork. The proposed Leandro deal wasn't left to the last minute negotiations have been ongoing for quite some time and it was confirmed that it wasn't happening way before the last day of the window, ultimately becuase Inter didn't want to sell The reports,and direct quotes, are that Leandro and Moutinho were really keen for these deals to happen. So, the players want it to happen, we ant it to happen and the selling clubs neither want it to happen or financially need it to happen and your conclusion is that it is because Levy is obsessed with last minute deals - that is, frankly, a ludicrous conclusion that doesn't fit either the facts or the logic.When I find that I hold an opinin that fits neither the facts nor the logic I tend to chain that opinion.

<SITS BACK, AWAITS A WELL-REASONED ANSWER - MORE IN HOPE THAN EXPECTATION>

Look, Harry, it's nothing personal...I just find the whole argument to be an incredibly shallow one, adn the fact that you are persisting in restating it rather than addressing the arguments put forward to invalidate it is really, really, really frustrating

 

[GuvnorP]

in answer to the above i think a lot of the anxiety over Levy is that we are close to being a real threat for the top spot and i for one think we are a little short this season and am worried we might not even make the top 4, partly as we now have a new manager and so the 'transition' period with a new manager may take time before AVB managerial skills cum to fruitation if at all.

We can only speculate about what happened with Porto but i for one agree that Levy was right in not paying 32m for him and did well to barter to 22m though in essence this may be partly the reason it wasnt signed and sealed before the deadline. We can say that Porto were messing around and delaying/ playing hardball but the bottomline is when we are talking about sumthing of this importance time constraint should not of cost us the signing though i'm not solely blaming Levy for this but he would of known hours before that the deal needed to kick on.

Having said that the work Levy has done in finding funds and raising funds for these players has been exceptional and again though i hope his role is more in negiotation with regards to player targets as opposed to selecting targets which i'm not 100% convinced it is.

These next 12 months are crucial to our progression which has started since the beginning of the Martin Jol era. do we kick on from here and continue to build on this young squad as we are perhaps to or 3 real quality additions from being real title contenders. what is done in January but more critically what is done next summer in terms of ins and outs alongside the coaching and developing of the current squad as i think if we get it right next season we may have in place what is required to win the Premier League.

 

[StartingPrice]

in answer to the above i think a lot of the anxiety over Levy is that we are close to being a real threat for the top spot and i for one think we are a little short this season and am worried we might not even make the top 4, partly as we now have a new manager and so the 'transition' period with a new manager may take time before AVB managerial skills cum to fruitation if at all.

We can only speculate about what happened with Porto but i for one agree that Levy was right in not paying 32m for him and did well to barter to 22m though in essence this may be partly the reason it wasnt signed and sealed before the deadline. We can say that Porto were messing around and delaying/ playing hardball but the bottomline is when we are talking about sumthing of this importance time constraint should not of cost us the signing though i'm not solely blaming Levy for this but he would of known hours before that the deal needed to kick on.

Having said that the work Levy has done in finding funds and raising funds for these players has been exceptional and again though i hope his role is more in negiotation with regards to player targets as opposed to selecting targets which i'm not 100% convinced it is.

These next 12 months are crucial to our progression which has started since the beginning of the Martin Jol era. do we kick on from here and continue to build on this young squad as we are perhaps to or 3 real quality additions from being real title contenders. what is done in January but more critically what is done next summer in terms of ins and outs alongside the coaching and developing of the current squad as i think if we get it right next season we may have in place what is required to win the Premier League.

I agree...but it is frustrating for everyone. That doesn't make it alright to make irrational claims about Mr Levy that are contradictory and focussing on what part of his contribution as a judgement on his whole contribution.

And, just for the record (again), Guv (it's a fair cop ) and not even fanatically defending Mr Levy. I said two years ago that he was playing the part of a de facto DOF, having put the systeminto abeyance because Mr Redknapp wouldn't work with one, and he wasn't as good a DOF as he was a chairman. IMVHO he should have (and still should) either hire a DOF/Technical Director and a manager who will work with one, or he should revert back to a traditional style British manager who had control over transfers with a manager he could trust to do that. My preference, at the time, and still now, is very much in favour of the former. I also believe the transfer window should close before the season starts.

But there is no doubt in my mind that Porto hadn't faulty paperwork in (or that it was probably deliberate as they didn't want to sell) - you just don't get to make that shit up.