Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

[LexingtonSpurs]

This "Poch sees them in training" would be the same Poch that counter intuitive to his own ethos dropped Lamela and Dembele for Chadli and Townsend this time last season. I'm loving the bloke, but he's not infallible. And considering the amount of shit his predecessors like AVB took for ignoring the academy, and the actual options Pochettino has had this season, I think this aspect warrants a bit of criticism.

We don't know what went into those decisions, now do we? I don't think the Lamela and Dembele we see today were the same players - as it came to implementing Poch's philosophy - last season.

Given that the players all talk about how much he has improved them, technically and mentally, I think its a fair assessment that Poch knows what he is doing on the training pitch.

He does not have to be infallible for me to trust that he has a better handle on the Academy players than anyone on the outside. He has not publicly made any comments about the club needing to spend more money in transfers - in fact just the opposite. Instead he has looked within the club to fill roles - whether it Dier as a CDM, or playing Alli. True, he did not turn to Veljkovic or Ball to fill the CDM position - but given that he had those options, and given how well Dier has played, I think he made the decision based on merit. Also, given the number of young English players that he has developed into internationals here, and at Soton, I don't think he is anti-Englishmen. So, if he is not opposed to young players, and he is not opposed to english players, then I think a logical assumption is that the players coming through the academy are not yet up to his standards - not that he has a bias against bringing those players through,

 

[beats1]

Given all that's coming out now about Chelsea I can clearly see why Emenalo is lashing out. He's clearly being put under immense pressure.

• He brought in the likes of De Bruyne and Lukaku only to proceed to sell them (with no buy-back clauses) and now watch them tear up the league.
• He has youth players refusing to stay on and are either leaving, like Josimar Quintero, or are refusing to sign new contracts, like Dominic Solanke.

Serious questions are being asked and I wouldn't be surprised if he's getting our name chucked in his face by agents, players, and parents as a team willing to give young players a shot and that's why he lashed out.

That actually made imo Emenalo's position stronger as Mourinho was the one who got rid of these two or didnt believe in these two

 

[spurs9]

That Pochettino isn't giving many minutes to our own academy players - and not as many as many teams around us. Which is what I said - and Emenalo said, that many poured scorn on.

No it doesn’t, the stat on its own is meaningless and all it shows is that, this season, Poch hasn't played academy players that hadn't previous made their EPL debuts. It doesn't take into account how well the teams are doing, # of academy players already playing in the first team and ave age of the first team.

If we checked the mins given to players that came through the academy, without other criteria, I imagine we would blitz most teams.

 

[Sweech]

That actually made imo Emenalo's position stronger as Mourinho was the one who got rid of these two or didnt believe in these two

Yeah, that's the rumour. Rumour is he also said "don't put in a release clause" which I th9ink is him now trying to save his ass as why would any DF listen to something like that?

 

[spurs9]

If he was fit enough to go on loan the why wouldn't he have been fit enough to play for us. We were still in cup competitions too.

Pritchard was fit by then (certainly the latter two and Palace game) I think (hence going on loan) and could have played in all of them instead of Eriksen, or with Onomah.

And in all those games and the first 8 Europa why not play or give bench to more kids?

Pritchard wasn't fit yet for any FA Cup games and looks like we may have had a word with WBA for playing him too soon as after his sub app for them (and a week after we went out of the FA Cup) Pulis said "Alex has come in and has tremendous talent," Pulis said.

"He was injured at Tottenham for a long time so it's just making sure and I think Tottenham are concerned we don't push him too quickly too soon."

"But sometimes you have to hold them back and we have a responsibility to Tottenham for that."

In regards to the Europa, we took it seriously until we realised we had a shot at the title.

 

[spurs9]

The "now" is wonderful, but the future is vital too.

This isn't just about playing kids we produce for the sake of it. It's not a HG v bought pissing contest. It's about having a sustainable, sensible approach that integrates both. About having a coach now working hand in glove with the Academy Director (McDermott) to make sure we have a unilateral coaching policy that can supply that head coach's first team with a conveyor belt of young legs and minds already tuned to his ethos (and his ethos is very much geared toward young minds and legs), who will actually be a better fit because of that than most we can buy for the type of budget we have (especially if that budget is restricted by stadium development).

If they don't get time in cup games, the evidence of this season suggests they aren't getting it elsewhere (30 minutes in roughly 4000 in the league).

I read people saying "would love Boufal" in the Summer Transfer Wish List thread, well if we'd given Pritchard time on the pitch this season, we might not need to be even thinking about a player like Boufal (slightly different but would fulfil a similar remit and would definitely take another AM birth for Pritchard, Lamela, Son, Njie, Eriksen, Alli, Onomah to compete with - though two of those would be better in CM3 they are treated as AM's by Poch in his 4231).

This "Poch sees them in training" would be the same Poch that counter intuitive to his own ethos dropped Lamela and Dembele for Chadli and Townsend this time last season. I'm loving the bloke, but he's not infallible. And considering the amount of shit his predecessors like AVB took for ignoring the academy, and the actual options Pochettino has had this season, I think this aspect warrants a bit of criticism.

I'm one of those who wants Boufal and I also want Pritchard to play a role, one does not effect the other as they are completely different players.

 

[taidgh]

What has happened to this thread?

 

[WindyCOYS]

Trix said Poch rated him and wanted him to play him. I prefer that line as I can't imagine a manager who wouldn't

Sadly I heard from two good, independent sources that Poch didn't like Veljkovic - thought he didn't play with the right intensity. One of them told me that McDermott told Veljkovic this, and they had a bit of a bust-up as a result. Then the loan/contract stand-off occurred off the back of that.

 

[thinktank]

Sadly I heard from two good, independent sources that Poch didn't like Veljkovic - thought he didn't play with the right intensity. One of them told me that McDermott told Veljkovic told this, and they had a bit of a bust-up as a result. Then the loan/contract stand-off occurred off the back of that.

Thought as much.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Do you honestly think Pritchard would have broken into the side, let alone the bench? Pochettino said this week that N'Jie was fit last week, but was behind loads of players so wasn't on the bench. It was the same with Pritchard, so even though I was against the loan, I can see the logic to it more now.

If he was fit enough to go on loan the why wouldn't he. He is vastly more experienced than NJie and

I'm one of those who wants Boufal and I also want Pritchard to play a role, one does not effect the other as they are completely different players.

They are different but they would both be competing for an AM position, often the same AM position in Poch's rigid 4231, in the same way that Eriksen, Chadli, Son, Lamela and Alli are all different but also play in the same AM positions as each other at times.

 

[not_tenth-again]

That actually made imo Emenalo's position stronger as Mourinho was the one who got rid of these two or didnt believe in these two

Except that neither of them are/were youth players at the time. Emanalo is clutching at straws if he's trying to relate success with youth players to those 2 players. Completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Pritchard wasn't fit yet for any FA Cup games and looks like we may have had a word with WBA for playing him too soon as after his sub app for them (and a week after we went out of the FA Cup) Pulis said "Alex has come in and has tremendous talent," Pulis said.

"He was injured at Tottenham for a long time so it's just making sure and I think Tottenham are concerned we don't push him too quickly too soon."

"But sometimes you have to hold them back and we have a responsibility to Tottenham for that."

In regards to the Europa, we took it seriously until we realised we had a shot at the title.

Pritchard was put on WB's bench the day after his loan move and played 5 days after he signed on loan. He has been either a used (3) or unused (6) sub just about every game since his loan maybe bar a couple. His first appearance for them was 12 days before our first game against Fiorentina, 15 days before the cup game against Palalce, 19 days before the return game against Fiorentina, 34 before our first game against Dortmund and 41 before the second. All games he could have played, instead of being a used or unused substitute for West Brom.

You really think West Brom would take a loan player off us and be told they can't use him ? Why an earth would they do that ? Or why would we for that matter ?

I'm sure they were well aware he'd come off a long injury, and would treat him the same they would any player who had but he's still sat on their bench three months after his loan, when like I said, he could have had some serious minutes for us in at least 5 cup games if nothing else.

 

[Spursidol]

And yet, it appears Poch, who sees them train every day, does not see it the same way. Go figure...

I don't know who is "better" or who works "harder" or who is a better fit tactically - but I trust that Poch is the right person to make that evaluation.

This whole pissing match about whether Poch values our HG players is madness. We have been blessed with a relatively injury-free season - with the one significant injury handled by Wimmer rather than CCV, Look at some of the injuries the other clubs have suffered and you understand why they have given minutes to youth players - they had to.

Poch sees all these guys in training - he knows where they are, and when they will be ready for games. Getting some minutes in early cup games is not going to make or break their careers.

Sorry, but you are missing the point.

its essential to give young players some minutes in the first team - and best over period of time. Onomah's minutes this season have been a reasonable approach to that.

However that's been the exception, otherwise Poch has not been trying hard enough to 'blood' youngsters.

If you look at all the players who have come through the academy in the squad currently :

Kane - Had shown he could score with a short run of 3 Pl goals in 6 matches in Sherwood's last few matches in charge. Poch started with Adebator and Soldado as first two choices before having to try out Kane after those two failed to score.

Mason - Poch had to use him in pre-season 2014 as all other CM options (except Capoue, Carroll, and Veljkovic) were at world cups, and Mason did well. Unfortunately injured at start of the season, Capoue started the season ok but then had a bad run of 6 matches and Poch brought Mason into first team for a cup match v Forest where he scored and looked good. Poch then started him v Arsenal as the plater in form

Bentaleb - Had played under Sherwood and the with Algeria in WC, but arrived back late due to WC. Brought into side by Poch to partner Mason due to Capoue's disappointing form. The CM pairing of Mason/Bentaleb did a very decent (if unexpected) job for Spurs as we finished 5th.

Carroll - Brought in (after some PL experience under AVB, and EL experience starting under Redknapp).Has done ok without becoming a regular. Specialist lock unpicker against packed defence ?

Winks - 2 subs appearances

Pritchard - mainly injured, but about 10 mins off the bench once this season. Then the WBA lloan

Ball - a couple of appearances on bench last season

CCV - As Ball, but this season

Veljkovic - Ignored by Poch over the 18 months before Velkovic left. And that included at least 6 months before Veljkovic's contract was ever an issue, so lets not be diverted down that route.

Poch's reputation for developing youth at Spurs, seems to be very largely dependent upon his use of Dier and Alli (which I agree have been very good) and taking Spurs ex-academy lads who have previous first team experience..

However the above shows that Poch's use of the academy lads has generally been poor in the 2 seasons - he has NOT given academy lads much time unless they have had first team experience before.

It's a far poorer record than Van Gaal's record at Man U for example - and Spurs Academy is better

I'd like to think it will improve next season, but I'm not convinced it will.

And Spurs medium term success (next 10 years) depends upon Spurs brining through some of our academy products - and do you think DL would have funded the Academy for 10 years and built a £50m training facility if he didn't think we were going to use it ?

Good news is we can see great prospects down to the age of 14 now. The question is whether the manager will make use of the conveyor of talent available.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Sorry, but you are missing the point.

its essential to give young players some minutes in the first team - and best over period of time. Onomah's minutes this season have been a reasonable approach to that.

However that's been the exception, otherwise Poch has not been trying hard enough to 'blood' youngsters.

If you look at all the players who have come through the academy in the squad currently :

Kane - Had shown he could score with a short run of 3 Pl goals in 6 matches in Sherwood's last few matches in charge. Poch started with Adebator and Soldado as first two choices before having to try out Kane after those two failed to score.

Mason - Poch had to use him in pre-season 2014 as all other CM options (except Capoue, Carroll, and Veljkovic) were at world cups, and Mason did well. Unfortunately injured at start of the season, Capoue started the season ok but then had a bad run of 6 matches and Poch brought Mason into first team for a cup match v Forest where he scored and looked good. Poch then started him v Arsenal as the plater in form

Bentaleb - Had played under Sherwood and the with Algeria in WC, but arrived back late due to WC. Brought into side by Poch to partner Mason due to Capoue's disappointing form. The CM pairing of Mason/Bentaleb did a very decent (if unexpected) job for Spurs as we finished 5th.

Carroll - Brought in (after some PL experience under AVB, and EL experience starting under Redknapp).Has done ok without becoming a regular. Specialist lock unpicker against packed defence ?

Winks - 2 subs appearances

Pritchard - mainly injured, but about 10 mins off the bench once this season. Then the WBA lloan

Ball - a couple of appearances on bench last season

CCV - As Ball, but this season

Veljkovic - Ignored by Poch over the 18 months before Velkovic left. And that included at least 5 months before Veljkovic's contract was ever an issue, so lets not be diverted down that route.

Poch's reputation for developing youth at Spurs, seems to be very largely dependent upon his use of Dier and Alli (which I agree have been very good) and taking Spurs ex-academy lads who have previous first team experience..

However the above shows that Poch's use of the academy lads has generally been poor in the 2 seasons - he has NOT given academy lads much time unless they have had first team experience before.

It's a far poorer record than Van Gaal's record at Man U for example - and Spurs Academy is better

I'd like to think it will improve next season, but I'm not convinced it will.

None of that addresses the point - do the players deserve the playing time? Poch is the final arbiter of that.

Nothing in Poch's history - including giving debuts to 20 players over 7 managerial seasons, suggests he is afraid of playing academy players. On the contrary, there is lots in Poch's history - including this season - where he has high expectations for his players - and if you meet those expectations you will earn playing time.

There is nothing to be gained by simply giving players minutes that they have not earned. It upsets the careful mentality that Poch has set up where hard work, and meeting expectations, is rewarded. Throwing that mindset away to meet some arbitrary notion that we must debut X number of academy players every year, is madness.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sadly I heard from two good, independent sources that Poch didn't like Veljkovic - thought he didn't play with the right intensity. One of them told me that McDermott told Veljkovic this, and they had a bit of a bust-up as a result. Then the loan/contract stand-off occurred off the back of that.

What did you think of that Windy ?

I watched Veljkovic many times throughout the development phase, and even in the summer pre-season under Poch in 2014 and though he was never exactly "Roy Keane" intense (who is?), he never seemed to lack for effort or application, did he you ?

This sounds a little bit like that story McDermott told about Poch winding Harrison up (saying something deliberately so Harrison could hear but pretending it was not meant for his ears) to get the best out of him ?

I wonder if this was a case of a bit of psychology that backfired ?

 

[Spursidol]

None of that addresses the point - do the players deserve the playing time? Poch is the final arbiter of that.

Nothing in Poch's history - including giving debuts to 20 players over 7 managerial seasons, suggests he is afraid of playing academy players. On the contrary, there is lots in Poch's history - including this season - where he has high expectations for his players - and if you meet those expectations you will earn playing time.

There is nothing to be gained by simply giving players minutes that they have not earned. It upsets the careful mentality that Poch has set up where hard work, and meeting expectations, is rewarded. Throwing that mindset away to meet some arbitrary notion that we must debut X number of academy players every year, is madness.

Poch is not the arbiter on how good they are, plenty of experienced youth watchers have answered that question for you.

And Kane says Hi - now viewed as potentially one of the top PL strikers. Written off by many less than 18 months agp

Poch is merely the arbiter on how much the Spurs youth play - and so far in his 2 seasons, that is not a good record.

His record at Southampton is irrelevant to Spurs now - it was only relevant to show we should expect him to bring through players. However as has been demonstrated, at Spurs his record to date is NOT good .

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Poch is not the arbiter on how good they are, plenty of experienced youth watchers have answered that question for you.

And Kane says Hi - now viewed as potentially one of the top PL strikers. Written off by many less than 18 months agp

Poch is merely the arbiter on how much the Spurs youth play - and so far in his 2 seasons, that is not a good record.

His record at Southampton is irrelevant to Spurs now - it was only relevant to show we should expect him to bring through players. However as has been demonstrated, at Spurs his record to date is NOT good .

Where would you have played more of the academy players then?

 

[Spursidol]

Where would you have played more of the academy players then?

With the number of minutes I am suggesting it is unlikely to affect any matches - that's a 'bogeyman' often put up that its too risky to play youth team players. And I can't recall youth team players making any more crucial errors than experienced players.

So I'd have played them in EL, PL and domestic cup matches with the majority of appearances being off the bench - the choice of timing and matches has to be down to Poch. But he has to commit to doing it.

Easy enough to do with a bench of 7 players, only 3 of whom can come on, to put one youth team player on the bench. Then Poch can decide when to bring him on

Indeed when the submission to increase the bench size to 7 was made a couple of years ago, Spurs justification was that it would encourage that.

 

[Norse]

With the number of minutes I am suggesting it is unlikely to affect any matches - that's a 'bogeyman' often put up that its too risky to play youth team players. And I can't recall youth team players making any more crucial errors than experienced players.

So I'd have played them in EL, PL and domestic cup matches with the majority of appearances being off the bench - the choice of timing and matches has to be down to Poch. But he has to commit to doing it.

Easy enough to do with a bench of 7 players, only 3 of whom can come on, to put one youth team player on the bench. Then Poch can decide when to bring him on

Indeed when the submission to increase the bench size to 7 was made a couple of years ago, Spurs justification was that it would encourage that.

The EL thing... Only at the start of the season are the teams poor and he also needs to keep the second unit ready, in case of injuries etc. He is using young players, the youngest team in the league, having by far the best goal difference.

 

[spurs9]

Pritchard was put on WB's bench the day after his loan move and played 5 days after he signed on loan. He has been either a used (3) or unused (6) sub just about every game since his loan maybe bar a couple. His first appearance for them was 12 days before our first game against Fiorentina, 15 days before the cup game against Palalce, 19 days before the return game against Fiorentina, 34 before our first game against Dortmund and 41 before the second. All games he could have played, instead of being a used or unused substitute for West Brom.

You really think West Brom would take a loan player off us and be told they can't use him ? Why an earth would they do that ? Or why would we for that matter ?

I'm sure they were well aware he'd come off a long injury, and would treat him the same they would any player who had but he's still sat on their bench three months after his loan, when like I said, he could have had some serious minutes for us in at least 5 cup games if nothing else.

Yes, I think WBA would take someone on a 4 month loan that was 3 to 4 weeks away from being fit.

The quote from Pulis about us being concerned that he is rushing him back to quickly, came after Palace knocked us out of the FA Cup. He wouldn't have played in the FA Cup or against Fiorentina had he stayed.