Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

[Blake Griffin]

i think we should draw a line under this now.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

i think we should draw a line under this now.

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[Dharmabum]

The point being look what can happen when you give the best academy players game time. Dier is a great example of that.

Dier was never an academy player at Spurs. He went straight into the 1st team at Spurs.

 

[Trix]

As I have said MP see's these players side by side in training Dier isn't better because he played a handful of games in Portugal, it's because he is just better. No way would MP be buying if he thought the answer was in our ranks already and he's said so plenty of times. The only time he will buy is if he truly thinks it's a worthwhile upgrade. If any of these kids were going on to be world class elsewhere then I'd say you have a point but the fact is they aren't and most don't even make it in the Prem.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Fuck sake

 

[IGSpur]

Great article from Ipswich academy coach and ex player James Scowcroft
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/james-scowcroft-english-clubs-ignoring-093031971.html

Think Bobby Robson hit the nail on the head how will you know they are ready when they haven't had a chance. People are ready to write off young players as not being better than any signings or not being able to do better than any first team player without even having a chance. Or believing that if a young player hasn't made an impact in 2mins odd appearances off the bench he isn't ready for the first team and needs to go off on loan, or isn't anywhere near as good as the hype.

I also thought this bit was interesting

"I asked people at Chelsea why players weren’t getting a look in. I got some half-hearted replies about patience and development.

“He’ll probably get his chance but he gave the ball away a few times in the under 21s,” was one reply when I asked about Tammy Abraham. So what?"

People expecting or wanting a young player to be the complete player, mistake free, like an experienced pro before they get a chance.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Dier was never an academy player at Spurs. He went straight into the 1st team at Spurs.

You are missing my point, as did @THFCSPURS19. Dier got his chance at Sporting, from academy to first team. If they hadn't trusted him and shown faith would we have bought him ? Would we have bought Njie if he hadn't had the handful of starts and appearances having developed through Lyon's academy ?

I wasn't saying we shouldn't have bought Dier (or even Njie) I'm saying look what can happen when players are given real game time. They become players that teams like us end up buying. We can do that, but we have to give (some - even one or two) players that same game time. Otherwise we will always be paying 5-10m+ on players that other teams have given a chance to.

There is no way that either Njie or Son offer more to our team than I think Pritchard could have done. That's 32m right there. Just need to be played. It's not like Njie and Son have "proven" to be worth regular first team spots is it ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

As I have said MP see's these players side by side in training Dier isn't better because he played a handful of games in Portugal, it's because he is just better. No way would MP be buying if he thought the answer was in our ranks already and he's said so plenty of times. The only time he will buy is if he truly thinks it's a worthwhile upgrade. If any of these kids were going on to be world class elsewhere then I'd say you have a point but the fact is they aren't and most don't even make it in the Prem.

No one expects many of these kids to became first team regulars, and even rarer that they will become world class. But it's exactly the same with players we buy. Many don't end up regulars in our team, even fewer world class.

But they don't have to be world class to be useful, just like the majority of our purchases don't have to be world class to be useful. But we will never know unless one or two of the most talented ones get a chance to prove it.

I fail to comprehend how Poichettino watched Njie or Son and thought they have 10m and 22m more about them than Pritchard has.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Just stop this is so fucking boring now.

 

[taidgh]

Having BC start to post in your thread is like the kiss of death

 

[Trix]

No one expects many of these kids to became first team regulars, and even rarer that they will become world class. But it's exactly the same with players we buy. Many don't end up regulars in our team, even fewer world class.

But they don't have to be world class to be useful, just like the majority of our purchases don't have to be world class to be useful. But we will never know unless one or two of the most talented ones get a chance to prove it.

I fail to comprehend how Poichettino watched Njie or Son and thought they have 10m and 22m more about them than Pritchard has.

Perhaps as I have said, Poch gets to see them side by side in training, while you are comparing Pritch at Championship/league one level, and what Son has done in the Bundesliga(pointless exercise IMO). Then again you have to take into account what are the other variables... Fitness, ability to follow his instructions, attitude in training etc. MP is very very principled, and will only play those that fully buy in to his philosophy. So much more to take into account than just how well he played against the likes of Barnsley or Blackburn.

On top of that Onomah has been getting games and MP refused to buy a CB in January because as he said we have a player already at the club we believe in(CCV). If a manager reknown for giving youth players a chance not to play them, perhaps it is just a case they are not as good as you like to think they are, or Poch just doesn't think they are ready.

How many players that we have let go in the last 10 years or so have actually gone on to surpass us? How many of them did we actually make a mistake with?

 

[WindyCOYS]

I wonder whether it might be worth considering moving some of the recent posts here to a new thread specifically about the merits of using youth players in the first team or how they should be integrated?

This thread is great as a generic 'info' thread, and it feels as though that has been lost recently.

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Our U21s are in action tonight at Ebbsfleet. 19:00 kick off, free entry.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Perhaps as I have said, Poch gets to see them side by side in training, while you are comparing Pritch at Championship/league one level, and what Son has done in the Bundesliga(pointless exercise IMO). Then again you have to take into account what are the other variables... Fitness, ability to follow his instructions, attitude in training etc. MP is very very principled, and will only play those that fully buy in to his philosophy. So much more to take into account than just how well he played against the likes of Barnsley or Blackburn.

On top of that Onomah has been getting games and MP refused to buy a CB in January because as he said we have a player already at the club we believe in(CCV). If a manager reknown for giving youth players a chance not to play them, perhaps it is just a case they are not as good as you like to think they are, or Poch just doesn't think they are ready.

How many players that we have let go in the last 10 years or so have actually gone on to surpass us? How many of them did we actually make a mistake with?

They don't have to surpass us, they could just be of sufficient quality to match many of the purchases we make.

Adam Smith for example ? Is Trippier much better now, aged 25, than Adam Smith is aged 24, or would be if he'd stayed with us and been coached by Pochettino ?

Did you watch Pritchard play under Warburton for Brentford ? His team played a identical system, very high tempo, high press, possession based game. Pritchard didn't just produce end product, he also worked well in that system, was tenacious, if he lost the ball he almost always chased it down and tried to retrieve it and played all across the AM3.

The argument about not seeing players in training is a bit moot, because we won't be watching any of the players we buy in training. We will be buying largely based on what is seen in the public domain. Of course we will be doing our research (I hope and believe better than before now) taking reports about how the player trains where possible, the players attitude, character, aptitude, intelligence etc. But if our own academy players don't have these characteristics then I (we - if I'm speaking for some of the others in here) don't want them in our first team either (see Townsend for example - or even, more harshly, Carroll - who I think doesn't quite have the right set of mental characteristics).

You and I are both arguing semi-blind - as far as I know - when it comes to training. I'm sure you hear things, as do the rest of us. If you (or anyone) had heard that player "x" doesn't train well or isn't liked it generally filters through to us. We have both watched these players many times, either for the various development teams or on their loans.

We all wax lyrical about players we'd like to sign, often having watched no more than a few minutes youtube, I think in most cases many of us have seen a lot more and have more information about the character, attitude, personality of some of the academy kids. Not to say "he should be starting every game for the first team", but enough to say "he should be perhaps getting more minutes in cup games than he has".

I understand the "coach knows best" argument you are putting forward, I just don't think it is always that simple and I don't think it is always right. Many clubs miss out (from Pogba and DeBruyne of late going all the way back to players like Jamie Redknapp and Graham Souness of years gone by) because their "coach knew best". And they are just the overt examples, most of the time what we are talking about is the many, many Smith's instead of buying Trippier's or Veljkovic's instead of buying Chriches's and Stambouli's etc.


And @ those moaning, I don't see the problem in discussing the subject of academy player integration in the thread specifically designated to monitoring academy players and their progress. A discussion @Spursidol took part in and it's "his" thread. We are not being pissy with each other, just having a discussion.

 

[Sweech]

lol Adam Smith...

 

[Trix]

They don't have to surpass us, they could just be of sufficient quality to match many of the purchases we make.

Adam Smith for example ? Is Trippier much better now, aged 25, than Adam Smith is aged 24, or would be if he'd stayed with us and been coached by Pochettino ?

Did you watch Pritchard play under Warburton for Brentford ? His team played a identical system, very high tempo, high press, possession based game. Pritchard didn't just produce end product, he also worked well in that system, was tenacious, if he lost the ball he almost always chased it down and tried to retrieve it and played all across the AM3.

The argument about not seeing players in training is a bit moot, because we won't be watching any of the players we buy in training. We will be buying largely based on what is seen in the public domain. Of course we will be doing our research (I hope and believe better than before now) taking reports about how the player trains where possible, the players attitude, character, aptitude, intelligence etc. But if our own academy players don't have these characteristics then I (we - if I'm speaking for some of the others in here) don't want them in our first team either (see Townsend for example - or even, more harshly, Carroll - who I think doesn't quite have the right set of mental characteristics).

You and I are both arguing semi-blind - as far as I know - when it comes to training. I'm sure you hear things, as do the rest of us. If you (or anyone) had heard that player "x" doesn't train well or isn't liked it generally filters through to us. We have both watched these players many times, either for the various development teams or on their loans.

We all wax lyrical about players we'd like to sign, often having watched no more than a few minutes youtube, I think in most cases many of us have seen a lot more and have more information about the character, attitude, personality of some of the academy kids. Not to say "he should be starting every game for the first team", but enough to say "he should be perhaps getting more minutes in cup games than he has".

I understand the "coach knows best" argument you are putting forward, I just don't think it is always that simple and I don't think it is always right. Many clubs miss out (from Pogba and DeBruyne of late going all the way back to players like Jamie Redknapp and Graham Souness of years gone by) because their "coach knew best". And they are just the overt examples, most of the time what we are talking about is the many, many Smith's instead of buying Trippier's or Veljkovic's instead of buying Chriches's and Stambouli's etc.


And @ those moaning, I don't see the problem in discussing the subject of academy player integration in the thread specifically designated to monitoring academy players and their progress. A discussion @Spursidol took part in and it's "his" thread. We are not being pissy with each other, just having a discussion.

As an FYI scouts do see players in training especially the younger ones. Not all of them of course but it happens more than you'd think in Europe, but that wasn't the point I was making. I meant it more that MP is seeing the players side by side with the ones we are buying in and choosing his playing side based with that knowledge.

I also do believe Trippier is better than Adam Smith, and Milos was nowhere near ready for the Prem when we bought Vlad.

 

[newbie]

Not us but solanke wants £50k a week to sign a new contract at Chelsea. Must be a wind up surely?

(Apparently he's been awful in Holland this season too).

And you wonder why some of these kids don't make it, 50 k insane

As I have said MP see's these players side by side in training Dier isn't better because he played a handful of games in Portugal, it's because he is just better. No way would MP be buying if he thought the answer was in our ranks already and he's said so plenty of times. The only time he will buy is if he truly thinks it's a worthwhile upgrade. If any of these kids were going on to be world class elsewhere then I'd say you have a point but the fact is they aren't and most don't even make it in the Prem.

1)I partly agree with you I think your wrong about few things, experience really helps, it is a massive test playing in league 1 or championship it shows you and show case you.
2) I think your wrong I can see a hell of a lot of spurs players who don't make it with us being in the premiership by the time they are 25-27. Charlie Daniels and Adam smith being good examples,
3) Also they don't need to be better then players we have just better than the crap squad players we have been purchasing over the last decade, is Njile better than Oduwa? Kane proved better than Ade, and Robbie, Mason/bents better than Capoue, and paulinho, holtby ect. Youth players know what is expected of them, don't need to settle and normally hit the ground running.

personally I think Poch is doing a great job I feel this forum has been split in two camps those who believe he needs to do more and those who things our youth are not good enough to get game time if they were he would play them. Personally I think Poch is more in middle he will play youngsters he is trying and there are lot more factors than just being good enough, its only his second season he is still sorting things out but the goal post have moved and our over achieving is going to make it harder to bring though good young players.

There is no doubt in my mind Pritachard would have had more of an impact this season that Son if he had been fit during pre season that is not to say one is better than the other but Son is settling in.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

As an FYI scouts do see players in training especially the younger ones. Not all of them of course but it happens more than you'd think in Europe, but that wasn't the point I was making. I meant it more that MP is seeing the players side by side with the ones we are buying in and choosing his playing side based with that knowledge.

I also do believe Trippier is better than Adam Smith, and Milos was nowhere near ready for the Prem when we bought Vlad.

Interesting, genuinely mean that. how does that work. When we are interested in a player do we ask permission to see them training ?

I can't imagine that is terribly common is it? How many clubs would be happy to have other teams oversee their training methods etc (especially rivals or reluctant sellers).

Can you give us s hypothetical scenario trix?


Re Smith. As he was moving through our development teams he was a constantly good performer, he was getting capped at all levels, (he was England's best player in the U19 championship when England were atrocious) and was getting MOTM awards playing in a very decent England U21team. Of course he still had learning to do. But we then bought not just Walker but Naughton too. Now his pathway was completely blocked, his career ended up stalling, he had to move and then fight his way into Bournemouth's side, but he's done that and just helped them have a very decent first season in the EPL, his first in the EPL, and IMO no coincidence that their best spell came when he found his way into the side and they have dropped off since he's been out (not all him of course but I definitely think good, consistent FB's play a vital role - look at Everton). My point is where could he be now if we hadn't bought Naughton (clearly not a world beater) as well as Walker. We've had some horrendous seasons of Walker as well, he's hardly been perfect. If we'd kept Smith, promoted him gradually, even as back up to Walker, do you not think he could have ended up better than Trippier - you diagree but I don't think there's much in it now.

Was Chiriches any more ready for the Prem ? Seriously ?

 

[Blake Griffin]

not sure of the score but lineup against ebbsfleet is:

glover; kwp, walkes, maghoma, bennetts; owens, stylianides; tracey, edwards, j.pritchard; sterling

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I've seen Joe Pritchard only three or four times now, and a couple of those have been as a sub, I'm still not sure exactly what his natural position is, can anyone tell me ?

 

[spurs9]

I've seen Joe Pritchard only three or four times now, and a couple of those have been as a sub, I'm still not sure exactly what his natural position is, can anyone tell me ?

CM.