Match Threads Spurs vs Southampton - Match Thread - Day 33

[Trix]

My point is that’s the managers decision what’s too much, he picks on merit what’s best for the team for results to include/exclude, or what are you saying ENIC are the moral compass? Haha, players shouldn’t be censored or selected by owners.

If you think Rose should be able to play for this club again then there's no point continuing this.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

How has he interefered with signings apart from doing his job?

Come on, Levy has a major say or who we do and don’t sign, our managers have never had free reign, often hindered. That’s a day long debate so just educate yourself and read all our summer signing threads..,

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

It will. Don't you worry. I'm working on something special if we win Sunday.

Haha big IF but this sounds exciting @ me if you’ve made some brilliant photoshopped montage of Mason sliding on his knees Jose at old Trafford style would love to see it
RYAN MASONS BLUE AND WHITE ARMY!

 

[daveduvet]

Sorry, I really can't see the argument. Winks plays an ok 25 minutes and people want him to start the league cup final? It's crazy.

Not to mention as Trix alludes to, he's a prick behind the scenes.

When Winks plays our CM is trash. City will dominate us. Winks always gets schooled when we play Man City, whereas Ndombele has actually been MOM against City before.

I never forget the bit in the Amazon documentary where Winks was doing a sly hush toned comment to another - my immediate feeling was ‘he looks like a right shit-stirrer’.

 

[UbeAstard]

Come on, Levy has a major say or who we do and don’t sign, our managers have never had free reign, often hindered. That’s a day long debate so just educate yourself and read all our summer signing threads..,

Of course he does, so how can he interfere if its his job? Maybe you need to be educated on what his job entails?

 

[C0YS]

Before yesterday, when was anyones last good match apart from Kane?


We know Winks is crap, we've had proof of it ever since he broke through under Poch. He never performs well against any PL side, particularly the better sides. There should be no clean slate for players who aren't at the required quality. Ndombele is capable of a sublime assist or even a goal, a moment of quality to win a game. Winks isn't.

Ndombele is one of our most talented players, clearly the idea should be to play him into form, not just cast him aside and put bloody Winks in his place, especially for a league cup final of all matches. I could understand it if we were talking about playing GLC in his place, or PEH, but not Winks.

Son has been well below par for a couple of months before yesterday, as far as I am concerned it's like saying let's drop Son and play Andross Townsend in his place for the final because he put in a half decent 25 minutes against Southampton.

Right it's clear you don't rate him, but the idea he never performs is complete hyperbole.

Now, what players can do is not always the right question. But what function do they serve. Nodombele for me is the future, yesterday I thought he was fine on the ball, off the ball, really bad. What winks does isn't sublime or special things, but when playing well he's positionally intelligent and he has good quick short passing game, and statistically rarely loses the ball.

Now you need a balanced team. Football isn't always playing your most talented players. If it was Baggio would have started every game in the world cup in 1998, it's about finding balance, a group of players that can work well together and complement each other better to allow the team to function better.

Nobody is saying Winks is a better player than Ndombele, but we have a new manager, we are clearly trying to play in a completely different way, and yesterday, Winks did what was required better than Ndombele, and helped control the game better than Ndombele. So, I can see why we would start Ndombele, I can see why we would start winks. But its not as simple as the most talented players play.

I also think a lot of fans simply don't understand why certain players are played. It must be infuriating for fans to see limited players amount cap after cap for national teams and stay on the side of successful domestic teams. I mean, a lot of people probably think Busquets is a bit shit because his passing is fine but not super amazingly good, he makes a few tackles but not as much as more active ball-winning midfielders, but no his job is to set the tempo, pick up the ball under pressure to give it to more creative players, and he was, the best in the world at it.

Winks, on his game, does allow us to progress the ball better than, say, Ndombele and Lo Celso. Now Hojberg can do similar things to Winks, and he has a bit more steel, but Winks (on form) and Hojberg does tend to give you more control than having Lo Celso or Ndombele. Now on the flip side, Ndombele, can beat the press better than Winks, he can drive the ball forward better than Winks, he can be much more incisive with the ball, and you'd lose that by starting Winks. But they can offer different things.

Winks is a limited player, but he's been someone who has played a lot of games for this club during successful times and has contributed to successful victories and teams. Maybe it will be time for him to move on particularly with Skipp coming through, although don't be surprised if he reinvents himself under a new manager, he would probably benefit if we played a more possession-based game. For me the sad thing about Winks is he's not become the player I hoped he would be when he was dominating Real Madrid at, what, 21? Some of this isn't his fault, having his position messed around and being transformed into a more defensive player, some of it probably is. But even so, he remains a decent player, who if he leaves will continue to play at a pretty high level. Apparently Atletico Madrid are interested and I can see him going there, and just like Trippier (who was also hounded by fans but has been a revelation at Atletico) establishing himself as a good player in that team.

 

[UbeAstard]

Of course he does, so how can he interfere if its his job? Maybe you need to be educated on what his job entails?

SirNiNy...I think your 'doh' is a recognition that you are wrong and you have no answer. Is it like a save face?

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Come on, Levy has a major say or who we do and don’t sign, our managers have never had free reign, often hindered. That’s a day long debate so just educate yourself and read all our summer signing threads..,

Thats the same with pretty much every team in world football. No manager has free reign - it’s decision by committee.

 

[Ionman34]

MOTM against City before, wow! When was Ndombele's last good match? By all accounts every player should have been playing for a starting place for the cup final yesterday and from what I saw he didn't really take his chance.

For me all players get a clean slate, if Winks starts on Sunday I'd probably understand the logic.

Why would they get a clean slate? It's not like Mason has been drafted in from outside the club. He's been present throughout Mourinho's tenure, so he should be fully up to speed on the capabilities of the playing staff, even if he wasn't directly involved with the 1st team training etc.

Ndombele might not have been "at it" against Soton, but Winks has been poor for as long as Dele, going on 3 seasons now, and if WE are aware of what he's like then you can be sure Mason is too.

 

[Shadydan]

Why would they get a clean slate? It's not like Mason has been drafted in from outside the club. He's been present throughout Mourinho's tenure, so he should be fully up to speed on the capabilities of the playing staff, even if he wasn't directly involved with the 1st team training etc.

Ndombele might not have been "at it" against Soton, but Winks has been poor for as long as Dele, going on 3 seasons now, and if WE are aware of what he's like then you can be sure Mason is too.

I'm sure Mason is well aware of Winks' capabilities but if he was a poor as we project on here then the truth is he wouldn't have seen any pitch time yesterday, Mason obviously brought him on for a reason and when he came on he did his job pretty well.

When was the last time Ndombele was actually at it?

 

[Ionman34]

My point is that’s the managers decision what’s too much, he picks on merit what’s best for the team for results to include/exclude, or what are you saying ENIC are the moral compass? Haha, players shouldn’t be censored or selected by owners.

Were I to slag off the company I work for to the press, or slag off my colleagues publicly, I would be dismissed instantly. I'm not familiar with the structure of the contracts Footballers have, so I don't know what the procedure is for dismissal. I'd guess though that, as they are on fixed term contracts, it's not a simple procedure.

The point being that Levy is Rose's ultimate boss, the manager is just a senior employee. If the Chairman feels that Rose has done what, in our line of employment would be a stackable offence but, due to the contract terms, he cannot sack him, then he is well within his rights to insist that Rose will no longer be tolerated as a representative of the club.

 

[DCSPUR64]

Why would they get a clean slate? It's not like Mason has been drafted in from outside the club. He's been present throughout Mourinho's tenure, so he should be fully up to speed on the capabilities of the playing staff, even if he wasn't directly involved with the 1st team training etc.

Ndombele might not have been "at it" against Soton, but Winks has been poor for as long as Dele, going on 3 seasons now, and if WE are aware of what he's like then you can be sure Mason is too.

Have you ever done the Ironman?

I'm sure Mason is well aware of Winks' capabilities but if he was a poor as we project on here then the truth is he wouldn't have seen any pitch time yesterday, Mason obviously brought him on for a reason and when he came on he did his job pretty well.

When was the last time Ndombele was actually at it?

Ndombele is good even when he is not on his game, he has a unique skill and plays a little like a hockey player with his bending and turning.
I would start him on Sunday, but Winks was good when he came on last night and would also consider him for Sunday I will leave the decision up to Ryan.
✌

 

[Ionman34]

I'm sure Mason is well aware of Winks' capabilities but if he was a poor as we project on here then the truth is he wouldn't have seen any pitch time yesterday, Mason obviously brought him on for a reason and when he came on he did his job pret
When was the last time Ndombele was actually at it?

Whilst Ndombele might not have been at it against Soton, he was still instrumental in our opening goal, it being his ball into Son that opened up Soton, leading to the initial shot that Bale then picked up.

Yes, I know that doesn't constitute a good game, but can be construed as a game changing moment, which is what quality players do even when not bang in form, not something you see from Winks.

I'm unsure on why Winks got the nod, though Mason will have grown up with him through the academy. Maybe Winks put the effort in in training. Only Mason knows.

And tbh shady, we're not projecting his lack of quality, he is and he's been doing that for a number of seasons.

 

[Ionman34]

Have you ever done the Ironman?

Behave! I get heart palpitations getting out of bed!

 

[Aphex]

Right it's clear you don't rate him, but the idea he never performs is complete hyperbole.

Now, what players can do is not always the right question. But what function do they serve. Nodombele for me is the future, yesterday I thought he was fine on the ball, off the ball, really bad. What winks does isn't sublime or special things, but when playing well he's positionally intelligent and he has good quick short passing game, and statistically rarely loses the ball.

Now you need a balanced team. Football isn't always playing your most talented players. If it was Baggio would have started every game in the world cup in 1998, it's about finding balance, a group of players that can work well together and complement each other better to allow the team to function better.

Nobody is saying Winks is a better player than Ndombele, but we have a new manager, we are clearly trying to play in a completely different way, and yesterday, Winks did what was required better than Ndombele, and helped control the game better than Ndombele. So, I can see why we would start Ndombele, I can see why we would start winks. But its not as simple as the most talented players play.

I also think a lot of fans simply don't understand why certain players are played. It must be infuriating for fans to see limited players amount cap after cap for national teams and stay on the side of successful domestic teams. I mean, a lot of people probably think Busquets is a bit shit because his passing is fine but not super amazingly good, he makes a few tackles but not as much as more active ball-winning midfielders, but no his job is to set the tempo, pick up the ball under pressure to give it to more creative players, and he was, the best in the world at it.

Winks, on his game, does allow us to progress the ball better than, say, Ndombele and Lo Celso. Now Hojberg can do similar things to Winks, and he has a bit more steel, but Winks (on form) and Hojberg does tend to give you more control than having Lo Celso or Ndombele. Now on the flip side, Ndombele, can beat the press better than Winks, he can drive the ball forward better than Winks, he can be much more incisive with the ball, and you'd lose that by starting Winks. But they can offer different things.

Winks is a limited player, but he's been someone who has played a lot of games for this club during successful times and has contributed to successful victories and teams. Maybe it will be time for him to move on particularly with Skipp coming through, although don't be surprised if he reinvents himself under a new manager, he would probably benefit if we played a more possession-based game. For me the sad thing about Winks is he's not become the player I hoped he would be when he was dominating Real Madrid at, what, 21? Some of this isn't his fault, having his position messed around and being transformed into a more defensive player, some of it probably is. But even so, he remains a decent player, who if he leaves will continue to play at a pretty high level. Apparently Atletico Madrid are interested and I can see him going there, and just like Trippier (who was also hounded by fans but has been a revelation at Atletico) establishing himself as a good player in that team.

What the actual? You think Winks progresses the ball better than Ndombele? lol. All it takes is 25 minutes against Southampton for his fans to come out again. Can you explain to me how Winks progresses the ball better than Ndombele? because you either mean by passing or running with the ball? In which cases, Ndombele is FAR superior. SO which is it?

Winks dominated Real Madrid, (he didn't) the old Wilshere Barcelona moment again. He's rubbish.

 

[Aphex]

I'm sure Mason is well aware of Winks' capabilities but if he was a poor as we project on here then the truth is he wouldn't have seen any pitch time yesterday, Mason obviously brought him on for a reason and when he came on he did his job pretty well.

When was the last time Ndombele was actually at it?

No, the reason Winks gets game time is because of our poor squad building. Like it or not, he's the next man in line when you start with PEH, GLC and Ndom, who else are you going to throw in to freshen it up? Sissoko?

At the end of the day both Sissoko and Winks are nowhere near good enough, get rid urgently. We need to improve, we need better squad players.

 

[C0YS]

What the actual? You think Winks progresses the ball better than Ndombele? lol. All it takes is 25 minutes against Southampton for his fans to come out again. Can you explain to me how Winks progresses the ball better than Ndombele? because you either mean by passing or running with the ball? In which cases, Ndombele is FAR superior. SO which is it?

Winks dominated Real Madrid, (he didn't) the old Wilshere Barcelona moment again. He's rubbish.

No it’s not what he does it’s what the team does. It helps the team progress with the ball. I wasn’t referring to his dribbling or ball progression. Do you understand what positional play is? Essentially it’s how when you move the ball essentially players rotate around, people’s positions shift therefore creating different spaces. Winks rotates the ball quicker than Ndombele. That means that helps in building things up as a team.

Your seeing things as this player has x vs this other player rather than trying to understand the functions for the team.

Ndombele is clearly the better player, though the other night he wasnt good out of possession at all. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it gives the right balance to the team.football isn’t like fifa or something were you just select whoever’s got the best ratings. You have to think things in terms of a team and how you want it to function.

 

[Aphex]

No it’s not what he does it’s what the team does. It helps the team progress with the ball. I wasn’t referring to his dribbling or ball progression. Do you understand what positional play is? Essentially it’s how when you move the ball essentially players rotate around, people’s positions shift therefore creating different spaces. Winks rotates the ball quicker than Ndombele. That means that helps in building things up as a team.

Your seeing things as this player has x vs this other player rather than trying to understand the functions for the team.

Ndombele is clearly the better player, though the other night he wasnt good out of possession at all. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it gives the right balance to the team.football isn’t like fifa or something were you just select whoever’s got the best ratings.

No offence, but Winks has been dreadful in a Spurs shirt for three years, and you are now trying to tell me that Winks has good positional play, he rotates the ball quicker. No, he doesn't. He's neither good offensively or defensively. You are falling into the same trap that people fell into the last three years, where you think Winks is something he isn't. He has literally played 25 minutes and you are here telling me he is useful, no, he isn't.

He is crap, he needs to be sold.

 

[C0YS]

No offence, but Winks has been dreadful in a Spurs shirt for three years, and you are now trying to tell me that Winks has good positional play, he rotates the ball quicker. No, he doesn't. He's neither good offensively or defensively. You are falling into the same trap that people fell into the last three years, where you think Winks is something he isn't. He has literally played 25 minutes and you are here telling me he is useful, no, he isn't.

He is crap, he needs to be sold.

Mate, I'm not against selling him. But don't be surprised if he starts on Sunday.

He does rotate the ball quickly, like how can you not see that? Statistically as well he has very good numbers at certain things, mostly around ball retention, not just passing but all relevant stats around that.

His positional play isn't what I'm talking about, the team's positional play is. He's useful because he moves the ball quickly, and he can actually take the ball under pressure quite well as well, and this is backed up statistically. He also makes himself available to help the defence try and play out. Hojberg also is perfectly adequate at this function as well.

Ndombele isn't that kind of player at all, Ndombele is a risk-taker, and he says it himself. His play is about doing things on the pitch, beating players in the midfield, making incisive passes and all that. Really good stuff, but it doesn't lend itself to quick rotations of the ball.

Tell me what Winks is as a player then? Because 'he's crap' isn't a description. What are his relative strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not falling into any trap mate. He's limited player but he has a functional aspect to him, same Sissoko, very different players. You probably think he's shit, but he still is called up to the best national footballing side and is trusted, ahead of say, Ndomebele. There is a reason for that, I don't necessarily agree with it, but there is a reason for it. Deschamps isn't an idiot.

You don't rate Winks, that's fine. I personally think it probably is time to move on as well. Though I never wish any player to leave, because that's not how teams get better. Find who comes in instead before letting someone go. But he did do well coming on the other day, and most people who don't rate Winks can see that he did.

Ndombele off the ball, left a lot of gaps the other day, particularly in the first half, and didn't come back quick enough when our defense was outnumbered, and while sometimes he does focus off the ball more than he used to, he needs to be more switched on, particularly as now we are going to play with a lot more space behind him, but he's a wonderful talent, who's yet to become a wonderful player.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

No offence, but Winks has been dreadful in a Spurs shirt for three years, and you are now trying to tell me that Winks has good positional play, he rotates the ball quicker. No, he doesn't. He's neither good offensively or defensively. You are falling into the same trap that people fell into the last three years, where you think Winks is something he isn't. He has literally played 25 minutes and you are here telling me he is useful, no, he isn't.

He is crap, he needs to be sold.

Other people. Not you, obviously. You wouldn't fall into a trap. You are right because the rest of us are wrong. You don't need evidence because it's so obvious.