Standing still while rivals improve

[millsey]

Stadium thing doesnt wash with me. Theve pulled the plug on spending last 5 years, and won't spend more than we get in. Like it or hate it that's the situation

 

[dontcallme]

Stadium thing doesnt wash with me. Theve pulled the plug on spending last 5 years, and won't spend more than we get in. Like it or hate it that's the situation

Who do you feel we've missed out on this window?

 

[RichieS]

Stadium thing doesnt wash with me. Theve pulled the plug on spending last 5 years, and won't spend more than we get in. Like it or hate it that's the situation

It is indeed. But what do you mean by the "stadium thing doesn't wash"? Do you think ENIC are just siphoning money into their own pockets like the Glazers do at United? Given how far we've come under their management, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they're actually trying to pay for as much of the stadium up front as they can which in turn allows us to reap the financial benefit of it as soon as we move in.

 

[millsey]

It is indeed. But what do you mean by the "stadium thing doesn't wash"? Do you think ENIC are just siphoning money into their own pockets like the Glazers do at United? Given how far we've come under their management, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they're actually try to pay for as much of the stadium up front as they can which in turn allows us to reap the financial benefit of it as soon as we move in.

They will sell once the new stadium is done. Then it will be up to the new owners how much they spend. It won't help us as a club not spending for so many years. I'm not in the camp if we have to spend 100 mill. But we can't rely on what we get in through sales to pay for ins.

 

[RichieS]

They will sell once the new stadium is done. Then it will be up to the new owners how much they spend. It won't help us as a club not spending for so many years. I'm not in the camp if we have to spend 100 mill. But we can't rely on what we get in through sales to pay for ins.

We disagree on the bold bit, but what about this...The new stadium gets finished with negligible long term debt due to current policy. This allows ENIC (or new owners) to set aside TV revenue for transfer fees and the stadium based revenue (naming rights, match day income etc) for wages. A simplistic but illustrative example of how the stadium is even more of a game changer for us if it is mostly paid for up front.

 

[eddiebailey]

Didn't those other clubs strengthen because they were completely crap last season and need to rebuild? Whereas we have a young team with the potential to improve. Why disrupt something that is working by gambling on a star name who would break the pay structure and most likely flop.

 

[Xeeleeyid]

It should be the obsession of every self respecting football club. On field succes is what we play for in the first place. It's just that 16 years of Levy has made people lose track of the big picture. We've lived with zero net-spend, squad trimming and outgoings before incomings for so long that we forget that there are many other ways to run a club - by just bringing in the best players you can possibly get and going all-out for silverware.

Ambition? The only abition Levy has is to line his own pockets and to take as much money out of the club as he possibly can when he and Lewis eventually sell up. They have no sporting ambition whatsoeverand they fart in the face of those at the club who do - hence all the staff jumping ship...

15 years of Levy are the only reason we aren't laughed at when THFC and Champions League are mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[Xeeleeyid]

Didn't those other clubs strengthen because they were completely crap last season and need to rebuild? Whereas we have a young team with the potential to improve. Why disrupt something that is working by gambling on a star name who would break the pay structure and most likely flop.

Because we want the shiny new toys that he's got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

 

[Xeeleeyid]

They will sell once the new stadium is done. Then it will be up to the new owners how much they spend. It won't help us as a club not spending for so many years. I'm not in the camp if we have to spend 100 mill. But we can't rely on what we get in through sales to pay for ins.

As I tried to explain inn my earlier post it's not that we NEED to sell to finance the TRANSFER FEES, it's that our wage bill is pretty much maxed out so there is a situation that has developed since the Redknapp era when we started paying relatively big wages that in order to make space in the wage bill for new players, other players have to make way. Particularly when we have a successful squad many of whom have suitors elsewhere and we have rewarded many of them with big contracts to keep them happy.

Of particular note was making Bentaleb one of the highest paid players at the club in his age bracket then having him lounge about on the sidelines not being in the new managers plans.

The COINCIDENCE of the wage bill balancing act and the boards ability to negotiate good deals for outgoing players has been a zero net spend.

Incidentally, the academy was partly developed to provide first team players but also as a source of funding. Even if developed players don't become a Kane, they can after a couple of solid seasons as a squad player or loan player command decent fees e.g. Caulker, Pritchard, Fredericks, Ball, Bentaleb, probably Mason, Carroll.

Many well run clubs adopt the model of buying and developing young talent and reinvesting sales into the first team. Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, they all do it.

So what I'm trying to say is that the zero net spend is a COINCIDENCE of our operating model and wage to turnover restrictions. We don't have to sell to buy in terms of transfer fees alone.

 

[millsey]

As I tried to explain inn my earlier post it's not that we NEED to sell to finance the TRANSFER FEES, it's that our wage bill is pretty much maxed out so there is a situation that has developed since the Redknapp era when we started paying relatively big wages that in order to make space in the wage bill for new players, other players have to make way. Particularly when we have a successful squad many of whom have suitors elsewhere and we have rewarded many of them with big contracts to keep them happy.

Of particular note was making Bentaleb one of the highest paid players at the club in his age bracket then having him lounge about on the sidelines not being in the new managers plans.

The COINCIDENCE of the wage bill balancing act and the boards ability to negotiate good deals for outgoing players has been a zero net spend.

Incidentally, the academy was partly developed to provide first team players but also as a source of funding. Even if developed players don't become a Kane, they can after a couple of solid seasons as a squad player or loan player command decent fees e.g. Caulker, Pritchard, Fredericks, Ball, Bentaleb, probably Mason, Carroll.

Many well run clubs adopt the model of buying and developing young talent and reinvesting sales into the first team. Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, they all do it.

So what I'm trying to say is that the zero net spend is a COINCIDENCE of our operating model and wage to turnover restrictions. We don't have to sell to buy in terms of transfer fees alone.

Surely our wage bill came down a shot load after the likes of Ali came in and capoue and Paulinho left? Why can Leicester buy players and put them on 100k a week? Vardy and Marhez on 120k a week. We can't pay over 80. You get 100 mill for finishing last this year. Way more than ever. We aren't paying 300k a week to players. Where's the money going? Can't we get a better loan deal for stadium where we don't lag for it all now?

 

[Pellshek]

Incidentally, the academy was partly developed to provide first team players but also as a source of funding. Even if developed players don't become a Kane, they can after a couple of solid seasons as a squad player or loan player command decent fees e.g. Caulker, Pritchard, Fredericks, Ball, Bentaleb, probably Mason, Carroll.

Many well run clubs adopt the model of buying and developing young talent and reinvesting sales into the first team. Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, they all do it.

This hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense. Good post.

 

[millsey]

Who do you feel we've missed out on this window?

Mane! If we are selling all our squad players we can put 30 mill or so together for a game changer. I think we only need one more on after nkoudou, a special attacking player

 

[stevenurse]

I guess we'll all have to wait in a kind of limbo state for a few years whilst the stadium is being built as we cant compete financially until it's completed and we begin to reap the financial gains (apparently)

I think those who have this idea that once the stadium is paid for, we will be spunking money around like nobody's business are in for a disappointment.

I guess it's an ever changing process and costs/plans etc change on an almost weekly basis with regards to construction of the stadium but has there been any indication as to when it will be deemed "paid for"? Will be have 5 years post completion where the stadium argument still holds true?

 

[slartibartfast]

I guess we'll all have to wait in a kind of limbo state for a few years whilst the stadium is being built as we cant compete financially until it's completed and we begin to reap the financial gains (apparently)

I think those who have this idea that once the stadium is paid for, we will be spunking money around like nobody's business are in for a disappointment.

I guess it's an ever changing process and costs/plans etc change on an almost weekly basis with regards to construction of the stadium but has there been any indication as to when it will be deemed "paid for"? Will be have 5 years post completion where the stadium argument still holds true?

Agree about the spending once stadium is built. Best we can hope for is it will be nicer, hopefully cheaper (lol) and there'll be more of us able to get tickets. Should bring bigger sponsorship deals and that money along with ticket sales will hopefully filter down to spending on players at least a little.
But look at Newcastle.
Anyone hoping a big stadium is the key to success is kidding themselves.
But it helps lol.

 

[walworthyid]

Wow. Some of the posts in this thread are just unbelievable.
OK some simple facts;
Had man city and Chelsea not come into money, nothing to do with stadiums or clever investment in youth etc, we would have qualified for the cl about 8 times in the last decade or so. As a result we would have more money, a higher profile and better players. Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

There are 4 champions league places, there are 6-8 teams every season who you could argue should be in it. 6-8 into 4 just doesn't work so inevitably 2-4 teams miss out. Liverpool have qualified for the champions league once in 6 years despite spending vast amounts every season and paying big wages. Chelsea have missed out 3 times, in terms of league position, in the last 6 years despite spending vast amounts and paying huge wages. We have qualified 3 times, in terms of league position, in the last 6 years yet have had essentially a net spend.

Yes, it is to a large extent about money. However, it is not ALL about money and getting success for that money is not an exact science. The smaller prem teams now have more money and we are seeing some decent players going to those clubs, negredo, llorente, bojan etc etc but how many of those clubs will get success as a result? How many of those players are better than what we have? What effect would bringing in average players on big wages have on our squad? You pay shaquiri £120000 per week and suddenly eriksen thinks, this guy isn't better than me, surely I should be on the same or more?

The fact is that we are competing with the biggest clubs in our league and have done for the best part of a decade despite our net spend.

The idea that we can go out and buy success, build a stadium, build a training complex and consistently bring through the best young players without going bankrupt is delusional.

It is frustrating at times, but let's not forget the days of ruel fox and Andy sinton, the regular flirtations with relegation, being a joke club and watching that lot up the road winning with style!

We've come a long way!

 

[Lighty64]

Any other 'TOP' side would have quality players in their squad to rotate players out of form.

I have just browsed the top 5 benches from Saturday's fixtures and included Liverpools as a 6th, now ok we haven't got many options at the moment, but it's quite surprising none of them are full of quality, and they are teams that can outspend or have outspent us recently.

I know playing in the CL compared to EL means rotating more for both, and we need a bit extra quality, but who would you want and who would you drop from our strongest XI? whoever we buy will need to be able to fit the harmony of the squad, and not expect to start every game, trouble is a quality player will want to start more than be sat on the bench, which then means players like Eriksen, Alli or Lamela might need replacing next season, because they want more play time.

we needed to strengthen our squad/bench, plus blend the youth in, once Lloris and Dembele are back, our bench is stronger:
LLoris
Walker --- Toby --- Jan --- Rose
Dier --- Dembele
Lamela --- Alli --- Eriksen
Kane

Bench
Vorm, Trippier/Davies CCV/Wimmer, Wanyama, Winks/Onamah/N'koudou, Son, Janssen

 

[Lighty64]

I dont know the exact amount , but we get a lot of money for being in the CL. That money should NOT be going into the stadium, as it wouldnt have been part of the original funding plan.

so who do we buy that we can afford their wages without upsetting our wage structure and the main XI that got us there last season, and who do we sell out of that XI next summer because they don't want to be bench warmers, ...... and repeat, every bloody season till death

see my post above also please

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Agree about the spending once stadium is built. Best we can hope for is it will be nicer, hopefully cheaper (lol) and there'll be more of us able to get tickets. Should bring bigger sponsorship deals and that money along with ticket sales will hopefully filter down to spending on players at least a little.
But look at Newcastle.
Anyone hoping a big stadium is the key to success is kidding themselves.
But it helps lol.

Newcastle isn't a relevant comparison, Arsenal are. The reason is that the key driver of stadium economics are the club/corporate areas. The only club that has done this in a similar to manner to Wembley are Arsenal. Their Club layer / boxes have 10,000 out of 60,000 but account for 66% of revenues. We will have a similar model but hopefully thanks to better stadium design we will have atmosphere, which is the main drawback of the Club layer. Newcastle don't have a Club layer and I doubt their corporate boxes sell for anywhere close to what a box at a London club does.

I suspect that the stadium will be "paid for" before its finished via stadium sponsorship. Spurs are way ahead of Arsenal in this regard and the NFL tie up is also massively helpful in this regard.

So in summary I would expect Spurs as a business to be kicking off huge amounts of cash once the stadium is built and then even more once the first stadium naming rights deal is finished, I'd guess after 10-15 years.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

so who do we buy that we can afford their wages without upsetting our wage structure and the main XI that got us there last season, and who do we sell out of that XI next summer because they don't want to be bench warmers, ...... and repeat, every bloody season till death

see my post above also please

Why would you want to avoid upsetting the first XI ? To move forward we need to challenge them, in particular the front 3 behind Kane, who IMO aren't as good in their roles as the rest of the team.

 

[Lighty64]

Why would you want to avoid upsetting the first XI ? To move forward we need to challenge them, in particular the front 3 behind Kane, who IMO aren't as good in their roles as the rest of the team.

last season we had a TEAM, they played as a TEAM, not individuals a TEAM, that got us to 3rd, had the fixtures not been so biased in Leicester's favor we would of finished 2nd. once we had lost it against WBA due to some good keeping and poor finishing, the task was impossible. yes being 2-0 up v Chelscum we should of buried them, but we lost the plot, and from that minute on we lost it. it has been a long time since we played as a team, and no one in the background disrupting us as a group.

that TEAM, SQUAD, deserve the chance to take us to the next level, to go out and buy a player better than our starting XI last season means our pay structure would fly through the roof. someone said Batshuayi was on 90K a week, yet i heard when he signed it was something like 130k, do you think he is better than Kane? we can't start paying some unknown possible that kind of wage and not the rest, we can't because we are in the CL pay that kind of wage, even if you had them all agree they only get it if they manage to get top 4 again, they won't want the drop the following season.

we have a stadium to build, we have 4k every game less seats this season plus the merchandise and other money lost thats spent on a match day , we are most probably paying silly rent to Wembley for the CL and be ready to pay astronomic money for the following season there, we also will be paying higher wages for the bonus of CL for all the squad involved, we have also or are due to renew 4 players contracts Lloris, Lamela, Eriksen, Kane. we can't afford to be spending mega money on players that want mega wages, and there not being any guarantee that they will hit the ground running, or suffer a serious injury.

we need better cover yes, but we also got to show faith in this youth and Onamah never let us down last season, and is as good as Mason or Carroll, and from what I have seen of Winks so far so is he