LeSoupeKitchen
Well-Known Member
- Aug 18, 2011
- 3,114
- 7,643
Seriously?
The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE POST MORTEM 1st February
- Thread starter Archibald&Crooks
- Start date
- Status
Seriously?
onthetwo
Well-Known Member
- May 19, 2006
- 4,585
- 3,407
That's it - keep supporting us on ceefax mate.
shelflife_73
Well-Known Member
- May 22, 2012
- 253
- 393
If we'd have got Leandro and Moutinho, that would have been the best window ever in terms of excitement for what is to come. But that would have also cost us over £40m for two players who haven't played in the Premier league and that's some gamble for a club that's posted a loss.
While the romantic, footballing, part of me does wish that Levy had splashed the cash, I'm also very glad that he's seemingly running the club in the best financial terms. We don't have an Ambramovich or Saudi family with that much cash behind us, so we can't afford to pay way over the odds that they do. And if we did, there's the Leeds example that should stand as a salutory lesson for what can happen, as perhaps could Liverpool's purchase of Andy Carroll for £35m - throwing cash around doesn't always work.
I wanted a striker and we didn't get one. But we also didn't pay money that we can't afford to get one that may not have worked. That approach has stood us in reasonable stead over the last few years - we're always there or there abouts for 4th, despite not having the same resources as the Mancs or Chelsea, and if Harry hadn't got sidetracked last year, who knows, we could have been even higher with the same two strikers we have now (albeit one who's gone off the boil a bit since then). OK, we've lost Rafa and Modric, but we've bought in Holtby and Dembele.
Squads evolve, sometimes for better, sometimes not, but the club remains. And we're much better off now than we were 7 or 8 years ago when we kept finishing 10th. Who knows where we'll be in the next 7/8 years time? But spending loads of money now, while attractive for the short term, may not be the best for us in the long term.
COYS.
While the romantic, footballing, part of me does wish that Levy had splashed the cash, I'm also very glad that he's seemingly running the club in the best financial terms. We don't have an Ambramovich or Saudi family with that much cash behind us, so we can't afford to pay way over the odds that they do. And if we did, there's the Leeds example that should stand as a salutory lesson for what can happen, as perhaps could Liverpool's purchase of Andy Carroll for £35m - throwing cash around doesn't always work.
I wanted a striker and we didn't get one. But we also didn't pay money that we can't afford to get one that may not have worked. That approach has stood us in reasonable stead over the last few years - we're always there or there abouts for 4th, despite not having the same resources as the Mancs or Chelsea, and if Harry hadn't got sidetracked last year, who knows, we could have been even higher with the same two strikers we have now (albeit one who's gone off the boil a bit since then). OK, we've lost Rafa and Modric, but we've bought in Holtby and Dembele.
Squads evolve, sometimes for better, sometimes not, but the club remains. And we're much better off now than we were 7 or 8 years ago when we kept finishing 10th. Who knows where we'll be in the next 7/8 years time? But spending loads of money now, while attractive for the short term, may not be the best for us in the long term.
COYS.
sweyid
Well-Known Member
- Jun 25, 2011
- 2,963
- 3,854
That goes for a lot of teams, in fact all of our competitors for 4th would be in the shitter if they lost 3 of their best players.
Liverpool: Suarez, Gerrard, Agger.
Arsenal: Walcott, Wilshere, Cazorla.
Everton: Fellaini, Baines, Mirallas.
Hell, even City, United and Chelsea would be in a grim state if they lost three of their most influential players.
Imagine Chelsea without Mata, Ivanovic and Ba. United without RvP, Carrick and Vidic. City without Silva, Kompany and Hart.
We're not the only vulnerable team.
Totally agree JJ particularly with our financial status and it is for that reason alone that don't believe we were serious about Moutinho in the summer and maybe we weren't with Leandro yesterday. Nothing wrong though with going for realistic targets instead of messing with the fans - that's my only gripe with DL.
RJ1882
SC Supporter
- Aug 28, 2010
- 2,122
- 1,843
I'm as disappointed with as anyone with our dealings. Think the club is playing a dangerous game. Potential suicide, again.
However, we do have a squad more than capable of still clinching 4th spot. We'll just need luck with injuries and one or two passengers to find some form now. Our backline has look poor of late, but Benny will hot better, Kaboul will return and things should tighten up again.
We've added much needed creativity with the addition of Holtby, Lennon is playing very well, bale top drawer. Parker will improve, and we need dembele to step up as his performances have slipped. Up top, it'll now probably be one of Defoe or Adebayor with Holtby or Dempsey behind, which realistically leaves us 2 starters with 2 alternatives. So options are there.
ideally Adebayor will get a run of games, find form and confidence and offer us a physical presence up top, play the cf role, with Holtby pulling tim strings behind. It's exciting to think what that partnership could achieve, cut requires a massive turn around in Adebayors season performances far.
I'll stick with my prediction we'll get 4th, though it'll be tighter than it should be.
However, we do have a squad more than capable of still clinching 4th spot. We'll just need luck with injuries and one or two passengers to find some form now. Our backline has look poor of late, but Benny will hot better, Kaboul will return and things should tighten up again.
We've added much needed creativity with the addition of Holtby, Lennon is playing very well, bale top drawer. Parker will improve, and we need dembele to step up as his performances have slipped. Up top, it'll now probably be one of Defoe or Adebayor with Holtby or Dempsey behind, which realistically leaves us 2 starters with 2 alternatives. So options are there.
ideally Adebayor will get a run of games, find form and confidence and offer us a physical presence up top, play the cf role, with Holtby pulling tim strings behind. It's exciting to think what that partnership could achieve, cut requires a massive turn around in Adebayors season performances far.
I'll stick with my prediction we'll get 4th, though it'll be tighter than it should be.
ryantegan
Block 33 Season Ticket holder :)
- Jun 28, 2009
- 6,014
- 17,841
Its not all doom and gloom.
We have got to where we are without Kaboul, BAE, Parker for the most part, And Adebayor for long periods also.
We have Dempsey finding the net now. Siggurdson with a point to prove. Parker and Livermore will fight it out for a first team spot. Defoes barren spell will end soon, and we all know that means a run of 6-8 games with lots of goals.
And who knows? Adebayor might come back and have a little run-a-round?
...And that Holtby didnt look too shabby
COYS
We have got to where we are without Kaboul, BAE, Parker for the most part, And Adebayor for long periods also.
We have Dempsey finding the net now. Siggurdson with a point to prove. Parker and Livermore will fight it out for a first team spot. Defoes barren spell will end soon, and we all know that means a run of 6-8 games with lots of goals.
And who knows? Adebayor might come back and have a little run-a-round?
...And that Holtby didnt look too shabby
COYS
King of the Lane
Well-Known Member
- Dec 3, 2010
- 4,131
- 23,703
I feel LD was another Moutinho, nothing more than a PR stunt, same with Levy's wheel barrow of money and a bid for Aguero. I don't want Levy out but his transfer methods at times (I mean the big players and media spin) are completely ridiculous and we always seem to be left short. We won't kick on and really improve due to our financial limits and I won't be surprised if we don't make top 4. Holtby looks like a great signing though...going only by 20 mins
RuskyM
Well-Known Member
- Jul 9, 2011
- 7,191
- 23,654
You know, I'm not as aggrieved as I expected to be.
Yeah, it's stupid that we left a ridiculously complicated deal to the last day and expected it to be done after failing for two years. Yeah, it's a bit irritating that we didn't spend millions to ensure fourth. But frankly we've never done that because we can't afford to. If we get Champion's League (which is a bit more of an 'if' than it was a few weeks ago) I could see that changing.
By the way, you can't exactly expect Levy to throw millions at a striker. He did exactly the same thing in the summer for a player who not only is Premier League proven, but Spurs proven - and that's not exactly gone well. That player in Adebayor hasn't gone by the way, he's still as talented as he was last year when he scored 17 goals. With someone as talented as Holtby supporting him, we should get the best out of him again.
One last thing: can we stop pretending deadline day is a massive success for us? Here's how the last few have gone:
January 2011: Bids for Rossi, Aguero and a £25m for Andy fucking Carroll all rejected. We decided at the last minute the two players that'd really keep us in the Champion's League were...Charlie Adam and Phil Neville.
Summer 2011: Scott Parker signed, Gary Cahill did not. Keeping Modric was a success tbf.
January 2012: Nelsen and Saha.
Summer 2012: Signed Lloris but the deal we needed in Moutinho fell apart. Dempsey signed as a last minute rush. Van der Vaart gone.
Summer 2010 is the only one we can really say went off without a hitch.
Yeah, it's stupid that we left a ridiculously complicated deal to the last day and expected it to be done after failing for two years. Yeah, it's a bit irritating that we didn't spend millions to ensure fourth. But frankly we've never done that because we can't afford to. If we get Champion's League (which is a bit more of an 'if' than it was a few weeks ago) I could see that changing.
By the way, you can't exactly expect Levy to throw millions at a striker. He did exactly the same thing in the summer for a player who not only is Premier League proven, but Spurs proven - and that's not exactly gone well. That player in Adebayor hasn't gone by the way, he's still as talented as he was last year when he scored 17 goals. With someone as talented as Holtby supporting him, we should get the best out of him again.
One last thing: can we stop pretending deadline day is a massive success for us? Here's how the last few have gone:
January 2011: Bids for Rossi, Aguero and a £25m for Andy fucking Carroll all rejected. We decided at the last minute the two players that'd really keep us in the Champion's League were...Charlie Adam and Phil Neville.
Summer 2011: Scott Parker signed, Gary Cahill did not. Keeping Modric was a success tbf.
January 2012: Nelsen and Saha.
Summer 2012: Signed Lloris but the deal we needed in Moutinho fell apart. Dempsey signed as a last minute rush. Van der Vaart gone.
Summer 2010 is the only one we can really say went off without a hitch.
foxilator
Active Member
- Jan 31, 2013
- 138
- 169
Long time lurker, first time poster etc etc.
Having absorbed all the ITK over the last 40 odd days, and experienced the highs and the lows i thought i might as well weigh into the debate.
I think the disappointment (anger, depression) we're all feeling today is due in part to the ITK. When all we had to rely on was Clubcall and the press we as fans couldnt get as 'close' to the club and didnt feel we knew what was going on behind the scenes so our expectations re signings were much more modest. We are a more demanding, and knowledgable fan base these days, and with that comes greater emotional investment, higher highs and lower lows.
Look at the positives, we have an excellent young manager with a real idea of how football should be played, an excellent coaching set-up with world class training facilities, a youth team that is running away with the u21 league and several players that are contenders for best in position, if not best in league.
There will be more lows, there will be highs, there will be games where we wish we had the 30 goal a season striker, but there will also be games where we spank some chumps 5-0 and forget how we were clamouring for fresh blood.
This is football, this is how it is, and I wouldnt change it for the world.
COYS.
Having absorbed all the ITK over the last 40 odd days, and experienced the highs and the lows i thought i might as well weigh into the debate.
I think the disappointment (anger, depression) we're all feeling today is due in part to the ITK. When all we had to rely on was Clubcall and the press we as fans couldnt get as 'close' to the club and didnt feel we knew what was going on behind the scenes so our expectations re signings were much more modest. We are a more demanding, and knowledgable fan base these days, and with that comes greater emotional investment, higher highs and lower lows.
Look at the positives, we have an excellent young manager with a real idea of how football should be played, an excellent coaching set-up with world class training facilities, a youth team that is running away with the u21 league and several players that are contenders for best in position, if not best in league.
There will be more lows, there will be highs, there will be games where we wish we had the 30 goal a season striker, but there will also be games where we spank some chumps 5-0 and forget how we were clamouring for fresh blood.
This is football, this is how it is, and I wouldnt change it for the world.
COYS.
SpurSince57
Well-Known Member
- Jan 20, 2006
- 45,213
- 8,229
What do you mean, 'hoodwinked'? Did I sleep through the bit where the Dear Leader made a public personal promise to sign a striker, whatever the cost?
GetSpurredOn
Well-Known Member
- Jun 18, 2006
- 5,022
- 8,922
Time for a little bit of post deadline day clarity.
We were repeatedly told not to expect much business, and AVB publicly stated he was happy with his options. Added to that, we had ITK’s telling us that we wouldn’t not just buy for the sake of it, only go for a player we really thought represented a true upgrade. This quite possibly explains the reluctance to stray from a loan to buy deal for Negredo. I personally think he would have been an upgrade, but maybe AVB didn’t fancy him and wasn’t prepared to spend that much cash on a player just for the sake of it. If he understands he has a budget, maybe he does truly believe he’s better making do and waiting for the right player, rather than spending on an inferior player and finding when the right player comes along the money is already tied up. Plus at Negredo’s age does he really represent a good investment in Levy’s eyes? I think that sort of cash will only be spent on somebody 25 or younger, so there is still potential resale value if things don’t pan out. Very business minded, and not what fans want to see, but also sensible enough to see we don’t go the way of Leeds, Portsmouth and various other clubs that have overspent chasing glory only to then face the ramifications if it goes wrong.
So, in summary, we have trimmed a bit off the wage bill by getting shot of Gomes and Jenas, which is positive. We have arranged loan deals for a number of our promising younger players to give them gametime and continue their progression, this is also a positive. We have signed a talented young English LB as a project to understudy BAE, and signed a sought after 22yr old German International playmaker for way way below his true market value, this is again positive work.
Now, the negatives… Still Bentley remains with us, drawing a big wage with no real prospect of getting near the first team. Huddlestone had the chance to move on for regular first team football, but he too remains, I don’t see him in AVB’s plans other than standby option as he is too static. I’d rather have seen him gone, and younger more mobile players like Livermore and Carroll filling the gaps. I think we may have overcommitted on loaning out players personally, it is good for them, but I feel our depth has been stretched. With no Falque and Townsend, we lack genuine wide players now. The biggest downfall has been our failure to recruit a CF. Defoe is apparently carrying an injury, and Adebayor is still away on International duty. Admittedly Ade’s return should relieve a bit of the pressure, and I actually think he can recreate the form he had with VDV, with Holtby in the same system.
I do think we should have bought someone in though, just to give us another option, and even if it was just a loan until AVB secured his ideal targets. For this reason, I have to ask, what actual use is our ‘strategic partnership’ with Real and Inter? Hopefully we move forward and identify our targets early and start working on them now, as of our shortlist was that short, we need to look at our scouting. Going after Damiao was brave, but once it was clear we were being played again, we should have switched to an attainable loan target rather than stubbornly chase a pipedream and end up empty handed. I actually considered the merits of Xisco this morning, and still am. 6ft2in 26 year old Spanish striker, released from Newcastle, so available on a free. Played a fair bit of La Liga, so experienced, but still young enough and with a point to prove after an unsuccessful spell at Newcastle. Seems a big target of a striker, a physical presence in the box, and on a free for 6 months, is risk free, giving us at least another option off the bench, which we currently don’t have. With a short term commitment like that, if and when AVB’s ideal target becomes available, we still have the space and the funds to get it done. Hellfire, I’d even contemplate Saha now for the same reason, just as an option, no more tha that. If Defoe was injury free I’d be less concerned, but it the thought he could break down that bothers me. It is the actual arsing about with Inter and wasted time that bothers me most.
Overall, we did add a quality player, we didn't lose any first choice players, and we didn't spend that much money. Not the worst window we've had, just maybe we hoped for more. I think we are stronger, and we have cleared some funds off the wage bill, not spent a lot, minimal disruption, so we're ok.
We were repeatedly told not to expect much business, and AVB publicly stated he was happy with his options. Added to that, we had ITK’s telling us that we wouldn’t not just buy for the sake of it, only go for a player we really thought represented a true upgrade. This quite possibly explains the reluctance to stray from a loan to buy deal for Negredo. I personally think he would have been an upgrade, but maybe AVB didn’t fancy him and wasn’t prepared to spend that much cash on a player just for the sake of it. If he understands he has a budget, maybe he does truly believe he’s better making do and waiting for the right player, rather than spending on an inferior player and finding when the right player comes along the money is already tied up. Plus at Negredo’s age does he really represent a good investment in Levy’s eyes? I think that sort of cash will only be spent on somebody 25 or younger, so there is still potential resale value if things don’t pan out. Very business minded, and not what fans want to see, but also sensible enough to see we don’t go the way of Leeds, Portsmouth and various other clubs that have overspent chasing glory only to then face the ramifications if it goes wrong.
So, in summary, we have trimmed a bit off the wage bill by getting shot of Gomes and Jenas, which is positive. We have arranged loan deals for a number of our promising younger players to give them gametime and continue their progression, this is also a positive. We have signed a talented young English LB as a project to understudy BAE, and signed a sought after 22yr old German International playmaker for way way below his true market value, this is again positive work.
Now, the negatives… Still Bentley remains with us, drawing a big wage with no real prospect of getting near the first team. Huddlestone had the chance to move on for regular first team football, but he too remains, I don’t see him in AVB’s plans other than standby option as he is too static. I’d rather have seen him gone, and younger more mobile players like Livermore and Carroll filling the gaps. I think we may have overcommitted on loaning out players personally, it is good for them, but I feel our depth has been stretched. With no Falque and Townsend, we lack genuine wide players now. The biggest downfall has been our failure to recruit a CF. Defoe is apparently carrying an injury, and Adebayor is still away on International duty. Admittedly Ade’s return should relieve a bit of the pressure, and I actually think he can recreate the form he had with VDV, with Holtby in the same system.
I do think we should have bought someone in though, just to give us another option, and even if it was just a loan until AVB secured his ideal targets. For this reason, I have to ask, what actual use is our ‘strategic partnership’ with Real and Inter? Hopefully we move forward and identify our targets early and start working on them now, as of our shortlist was that short, we need to look at our scouting. Going after Damiao was brave, but once it was clear we were being played again, we should have switched to an attainable loan target rather than stubbornly chase a pipedream and end up empty handed. I actually considered the merits of Xisco this morning, and still am. 6ft2in 26 year old Spanish striker, released from Newcastle, so available on a free. Played a fair bit of La Liga, so experienced, but still young enough and with a point to prove after an unsuccessful spell at Newcastle. Seems a big target of a striker, a physical presence in the box, and on a free for 6 months, is risk free, giving us at least another option off the bench, which we currently don’t have. With a short term commitment like that, if and when AVB’s ideal target becomes available, we still have the space and the funds to get it done. Hellfire, I’d even contemplate Saha now for the same reason, just as an option, no more tha that. If Defoe was injury free I’d be less concerned, but it the thought he could break down that bothers me. It is the actual arsing about with Inter and wasted time that bothers me most.
Overall, we did add a quality player, we didn't lose any first choice players, and we didn't spend that much money. Not the worst window we've had, just maybe we hoped for more. I think we are stronger, and we have cleared some funds off the wage bill, not spent a lot, minimal disruption, so we're ok.
codspur
SC Supporter
- Jul 14, 2008
- 2,720
- 8,489
JJ can I aska question about our Youth development policy with regards to the likes of Mason, Pritchard etc. It seems that in the majority of cases we have actually sent them to clubs that should benefit them technically as opposed to (and no offence meant here) the old default options of Leyton Orient, Exeter etc. Do we actively offer these lads for loan or do these clubs approach us?
If we offer how much imput does AVB have on deciding which clubs to approach to enhance their development?
sheringmann
Well-Known Member
- May 27, 2004
- 1,686
- 418
The thing is my friend that those clubs would have replaced them with the same caliber players. And that is why they get 4th every year...we dont.
Spurs1960
Well-Known Member
- Jul 26, 2011
- 2,424
- 1,220
We sit 4th in the league with the squad we have.
We are fighting for 3rd or 4th.
We are only competing against Arsenal, Chelsea and Everton.
We only have to be better than 2 of them.
Arsenal have only signed a left back.
Everton have only signed a defender from the mighty Barnsley
Chelsea have only signed Demba Ba.
What's the panic, all is basically as it was before in our little mini league.
We are fighting for 3rd or 4th.
We are only competing against Arsenal, Chelsea and Everton.
We only have to be better than 2 of them.
Arsenal have only signed a left back.
Everton have only signed a defender from the mighty Barnsley
Chelsea have only signed Demba Ba.
What's the panic, all is basically as it was before in our little mini league.
poc
Well-Known Member
- Aug 6, 2004
- 3,247
- 3,665
Well what a rollercoaster ride this TW was.
I along with a lot of others worry about our ability to maintain 4th in the wake of Everton's consistency and Arse's ability to turn on performances.
But, I am happy we shifted dead wood in Jenas and Gomes, and a lot of our youth warming the bench are going to get 1st team football elsewhere.
What I am hoping for is that we consolidate while Ade is in ANC, when Ade gets back Defoe is allowed to go and recover for a few weeks and that Holtby will be the perfect foil behind Ade to push us on.
btw if anyone knows that fat idiot in the hood last night on SSN give him a slap what a dick
I along with a lot of others worry about our ability to maintain 4th in the wake of Everton's consistency and Arse's ability to turn on performances.
But, I am happy we shifted dead wood in Jenas and Gomes, and a lot of our youth warming the bench are going to get 1st team football elsewhere.
What I am hoping for is that we consolidate while Ade is in ANC, when Ade gets back Defoe is allowed to go and recover for a few weeks and that Holtby will be the perfect foil behind Ade to push us on.
btw if anyone knows that fat idiot in the hood last night on SSN give him a slap what a dick
- Feb 1, 2005
- 55,636
- 205,517
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #119
From the little I know here's my take on it.
We weren't particularly looking at signing anyone other than a striker this January. Sandro's injury forced chrome dome into shelling out to bring in Holtby early. The Leandro stuff came to us from a respected poster who possibly provided some of the most complete and compelling verification that we've had. A short while later another source, a very good source, came to us with almost identical information. Were we close to sealing a deal? I genuinely think we were. What went wrong? I have no idea. Why was it left so late? Again I have no idea but if you were to threaten me with a very large buttplug i'd have to guess and say 'ask Daniel Levy' (resisting the strong temptation to say 'go ahead, ram it right up there')
So far we've had Moutinho, now Leandro plastered across SSN's yellow ticker and come away with nothing. And i'm not just saying this because it was on SSN's ticker either. We've enough information to say it's a fair assumption that we were actually 'in' for these players on the last day of the transfer window. What went wrong with these deals is by the by, but something keeps getting in the way and yet again we run out of time. So yeah, I think it's right that a certain amount of frustration gets taken out on ODL because he's the man in charge.
There's a line in the film, Goldfinger where the villain says to Bond "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action"
In this case I would amend that slightly to read "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's blatant stupidity"
I just hope there is no third time. Levy can't afford one.
Not that he'll give a shit what an old fart like me has to say
Insomnia
Twisted Firestarter
- Jan 18, 2006
- 20,209
- 55,574
Through the highs and lows of yesterday's TDD I must say there was some comedy gold in amongst the posts, we have got some funny fuckers on here.I must have drunk too much last night coz the only laugh out loud 1 I remember was the line about Graham Hunter looking like Jeremy Beadle's thumb,and not his good one,24 carots right there
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