The England Thread

[THFCSPURS19]

I'm saying that Dier and Dembele are hampered by having three players in what should be their space by playing three very similar players are constricting each other's movements.

Victor is a beast and should be utilised when we have teams attacking us.

Not when we have teams parking the bus. Play Son instead. And not at lb...

Playing 3 at the back didn't seem to hamper us when we obliterated West Brom and other defensive teams last season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In a back five. He is being played as a cb not dm.

Poch played it defensively.

3 cbs with two fbs.

We didn't play a back 5 on Sunday, or against Chelsea. Dier was in CM in both games, deeper than Dembele against Chelsea, as the map I posted shows you.

And for the record here's Dier 15/16 v Wanyama 16/17:

Wanyama was twice as creative with his passing as Dier.

 

[Mustard]

Playing 3 at the back didn't seem to hamper us when we obliterated West Brom and other defensive teams last season.

You're missing the point.

What works against West Brom doesn't always work against a team like Chelsea.

We have one of the best attacks in Europe. We can beat ordinary teams. We are blessed with a striker as good as Jimmy Greaves.

Anyway. I'm not here to argue semantics.

I just want Poch to not be so defensive. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele can't play in the same team if you want to beat an outfit set out to just defend.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You're missing the point.

What works against West Brom doesn't always work against a team like Chelsea.

We have one of the best attacks in Europe. We can beat ordinary teams. We are blessed with a striker as good as Jimmy Greaves.

Anyway. I'm not here to argue semantics.

I just want Poch to not be so defensive. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele can't play in the same team if you want to beat an outfit set out to just defend.

They can if Dier plays where he belongs, as a CB. Which is largely what he did last year when we had our best finish for 50 years, scored more than anyone, had the biggest GD and the best defence.

 

[Mustard]

We didn't play a back 5 on Sunday, or against Chelsea. Dier was in CM in both games, deeper than Dembele against Chelsea, as the map I posted shows you.

And for the record here's Dier 15/16 v Wanyama 16/17:

View attachment 32329


Wanyama was twice as creative with his passing as Dier.

I don't know the credence of those stats.

I just watch the flow of a game. As I've said. Dier lacks confidence.

If it makes you happy I would cede that Victor can play instead of Eric.. just don't want all three playing together.

 

[Mustard]

They can if Dier plays where he belongs, as a CB. Which is largely what he did last year when we had our best finish for 50 years, scored more than anyone, had the biggest GD and the best defence.

We didn't win the league though....

So there is clearly room for improvement

 

[THFCSPURS19]

You're missing the point.

What works against West Brom doesn't always work against a team like Chelsea.

We have one of the best attacks in Europe. We can beat ordinary teams. We are blessed with a striker as good as Jimmy Greaves.

Anyway. I'm not here to argue semantics.

I just want Poch to not be so defensive. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele can't play in the same team if you want to beat an outfit set out to just defend.

I'm not missing the point.

I'm pretty sure this is your point:

'I just want Poch to not be so defensive. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele can't play in the same team if you want to beat an outfit set out to just defend.'

West Brom is an outfit 'set out to just defend'. One of our best performances last season was our victory over them where we fucked them with 3 at the back.

Another one of our best performances last season was our win against Chelsea. With 3 at the back. With Dier, Wanyama and Dembele all starting. The match where Wanyama was fucking amazing.

 

[Mustard]

I'm not missing the point.

I'm pretty sure this is your point:

'I just want Poch to not be so defensive. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele can't play in the same team if you want to beat an outfit set out to just defend.'

West Brom is an outfit 'set out to just defend'. One of our best performances last season was our victory over them where we fucked them with 3 at the back.

Another one of our best performances last season was our win against Chelsea. With 3 at the back. With Dier, Wanyama and Dembele all starting. The match where Wanyama was fucking amazing.

Ok mate.

You win.

You've played the West Brom card imperially

I cede.

Well done.

Let's not worry about Dortmund or Madrid because we beat West Brom last season.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

People focus too much on starting formations. We don't ever play a whole match with a 4-man or a 3-man defence. It changes, depending on the state of the match and the flow of play.

Dier is often credited for his "versatility", but it's always on the basis that he either plays in central defence or he plays in central midfield. In reality, he plays both in every match, irrespective of his starting position. If we play with Wanyama instead, it's not as obvious, but he also drifts back when the fullbacks advance. Dier drops back into a proper central defence position whenever there is a transition and the fullbacks/wingbacks are stuck upfield.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Ok mate.

You win.

You've played the West Brom card imperially

I cede.

Well done.

Let's not worry about Dortmund or Madrid because we beat West Brom last season.

Surely Dortmund and Madrid are the exact games we should be playing 3 at the back

 

[Mustard]

People focus too much on starting formations. We don't ever play a whole match with a 4-man or a 3-man defence. It changes, depending on the state of the match and the flow of play.

Dier is often credited for his "versatility", but it's always on the basis that he either plays in central defence or he plays in central midfield. In reality, he plays both in every match, irrespective of his starting position. If we play with Wanyama instead, it's not as obvious, but he also drifts back when the fullbacks advance. Dier drops back into a proper central defence position whenever there is a transition and the fullbacks/wingbacks are stuck upfield.

They're players. Top level players. They do what they are told to do. Footballers are thick.

I'm just saying That Dier is dm. A world class modern dm.

He is not a cb. He is barely a Championship level cb.

 

[riggi]

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

It didn't really, it just got transferred to full backs. About 50 years after South Americans did it, but England got there eventually.

You missed the point. I realise fullbacks provide the width these days.

I was talking about true wing play and the wingers that mastered it, like your Giggs and Ginola's. I personally miss it, right or wrong, because it was exciting and entertaining to watch.

 

[spursfan77]

Watching games like this makes me miss the the old 4-4-2 days. The art of wing play has died over the last 10 years..

We virtually lined up as 442 though. That's what showed us how embarrassing it is to have Southgate as our international manager.

Malta only ever have lined up 532 so what does Southgate do? He lines us up as a 442 against the one formation that was designed to beat the 442!

It's such a bad management and coaching decision it's unbelievable.

 

[mpickard2087]

I know its easy to say after the event, but there was no reason not to go with something like:

Butland
Walker Stones Bertrand
Henderson
Ox Alli
Sterling Kane Vardy Rashford
​

Given the opposition we faced and the personnel we had to choose from. A very fluid back three could be employed, Walker/Bertrand covering different positions vertically/horizontally depending on where the ball was on the pitch. Stones would bring the ball out and take the game to them. Henderson can sit, the rest can attack and the two wide forwards should stretch the pitch whilst we'd have plenty of players in the box playing up against their defenders and hopefully overwhelming them with pressure.

I'm not expecting miracles from Southgate (or whoever), but I'd love to see a bit of imagination and daring. We're probably not going to win, I'd rather go down in spectacular quirky fashion, and give everyone something to talk and think about rather than boring 4-2-3-1's and the like.

Until the midfield is sorted though we will keep seeing these problems. We had Henderson, Livermore and Chalobah to choose from. The bench was one midfielder, and then five strikers. So unbalanced.

 

[Gbspurs]

I know its easy to say after the event, but there was no reason not to go with something like:

Butland
Walker Stones Bertrand
Henderson
Ox Alli
Sterling Kane Vardy Rashford
​

Given the opposition we faced and the personnel we had to choose from. A very fluid back three could be employed, Walker/Bertrand covering different positions vertically/horizontally depending on where the ball was on the pitch. Stones would bring the ball out and take the game to them. Henderson can sit, the rest can attack and the two wide forwards should stretch the pitch whilst we'd have plenty of players in the box playing up against their defenders and hopefully overwhelming them with pressure.

I'm not expecting miracles from Southgate (or whoever), but I'd love to see a bit of imagination and daring. We're probably not going to win, I'd rather go down in spectacular quirky fashion, and give everyone something to talk and think about rather than boring 4-2-3-1's and the like.

Until the midfield is sorted though we will keep seeing these problems. We had Henderson, Livermore and Chalobah to choose from. The bench was one midfielder, and then five strikers. So unbalanced.

1 CB? Interesting.

 

[mpickard2087]

1 CB? Interesting.

Why not? We're talking about the opposition being one of the minnow teams, teams who play 5-4-1, put up the brick wall and cling onto a 0-0 as long as they can, and then after that leak as few goals as possible.

The side centre backs could adapt to where the ball was on the pitch, depending on which side the play was one could push on and get involved whilst the other comes round on the cover alongside the middle CB with the fixed position.

Take some risks, take the game to them, give us something interesting and that can be discussed. Or just bore your way through the game with some ultra safe, by the book 4-2-3-1...

 

[nailsy]

Why would Southgate want to risk his job to experiment with some stupid formation that he'll never use again? If it goes badly wrong we could miss out on qualifying. It was a boring display but we won four nil to stay in charge of the group which is all that really matters.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Why would Southgate want to risk his job to experiment with some stupid formation that he'll never use again? If it goes badly wrong we could miss out on qualifying. It was a boring display but we won four nil to stay in charge of the group which is all that really matters.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with MP's tactical suggestion, but just wining these games isn't all that matters, and IMO, that's where England have been going wrong for decades, worrying way to much about the next result, instead of the long term development of a team and philosophy.

If England were Italy with tactical proficient coaches and players they could afford to think that way, but they are, tactically, most inept country in world football in relative terms. So they need to do what the germans do and say, lets at least commit to an ethos, and pick players that fit that ethos, not just keep picking the safest or perceived best 11 players in the country and hope that individuals win us games until we get to finals and then teams with better individuals and/or an ethos will make us look stupid again.

 

[nailsy]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with MP's tactical suggestion, but just wining these games isn't all that matters, and IMO, that's where England have been going wrong for decades, worrying way to much about the next result, instead of the long term development of a team and philosophy.

If England were Italy with tactical proficient coaches and players they could afford to think that way, but they are, tactically, most inept country in world football in relative terms. So they need to do what the germans do and say, lets at least commit to an ethos, and pick players that fit that ethos, not just keep picking the safest or perceived best 11 players in the country and hope that individuals win us games until we get to finals and then teams with better individuals and/or an ethos will make us look stupid again.

I think most people agree that we should be trying to find an identity and stick to it. I'd take a few defeats along the way if there was a long term objective. What I don't agree with is trying some crazy tactic to make it a more entertaining game in a one off match.

I actually thought that Southgate wanted us to develop that identity, but he's not matching his words with actions yet.