The England Thread

[ohtottenham!]

Plenty of negatives to take from that, on the flip side I actually thought Luke Shaw had a very tidy game as did Mings, I'm not sure about right back, James did well though I think Walker just edges it for me. Pickford had a really good game, couple of good saves, commanded his area on set peices well and has a rocket launcher of a left foot.

Kane was isolated but didn't help himself with largely wasting the scraps he was given.

Rice and Philips didn't work today, far too conservative. Rice especially annoyed me throughout with his frequent inability to get his head up, instead relying on the ball back to a CB over and over again.

Think it’s basically a case of Southgate being too risk averse in too many areas which basically handed the initiative to Scotland and nullified our own threats. He simply didn’t exploit the resources he had.

Also, there were plenty of signs throughout the game that seemed to indicate to me that players were instructed to take a conservative approach. Don’t think I’ve ever seen Reece James play as passively going forward as he did today.

The DM pivot only makes sense against Scotland if there is urgency with the ball progression and movement to link to our AMs/forwards or to the flanks. There was none. When it did go to our FBs in space, particularly James on the right, it was just recycled back to Rice more often than not and the ball got stuck in non-threatening areas.

It was really crying out for a Bellingham, and I know he’s young, in place of one of the DMs to give us more attacking thrust from those positions. Hope we see Grealish against the Czechs; think Sterling can be dropped. And I hope the FBs, whoever they are, get much more of an attacking remit from Southgate. We should have got 3 points today, and would have with the right approach from Southgate.

 

[Shadydan]

You can argue we looked leggy, you can argue that Kane looked well off it, but there is no argument to make for just how shocking Southgate is. He has handled this team of brilliant players terribly - I'm not defending Kane for his overall contribution, but you could tell by his position that he has been told to stay up top, yet no one has actually supplied him with anything. For me, you start him next game with this line-up.

Pickford

Walker Stones Maguire Shaw

Phillips

Sancho Grealish Foden

Kane
​

Give them some freedom to pass the ball forward quickly, feed Kane through the middle, wingbacks/fb's provide the width & I'm sure this team can cause havoc. Disclaimer, I've had a few beers so my judgement might be off somewhat

​

Did someone get sent off?

 

[ohtottenham!]

Pickford

Trippier
Stones
Maguire (if fit)
Chilwell

Mount
Phillips
Grealish

Sancho
Kane
Foden

That would be my XI. Most of those players can maintain possession effectively under pressure, particularly in the final third of the pitch. And importantly, with the creativity throughout, Kane wouldn’t feel the need to drop deep.

I see Grealish and Mount as part of a midfield trio as modern no.8s, but for extra defensive stability, Bellingham could play instead of Mount.

No chance we’ll get anywhere near that level of offensive dynamism on the pitch with Southgate in charge, though.

Not a bad setup. My onions, I'd prefer Walker or James to Trippier especially going forward into the tournament where pace, going forward and back, and physicality will be important. Think Walker's still our best RB defensively and would prefer him against the better teams.

Think Rice and Henderson are better defensively than Phillips although I like Phillips. Like you say, Bellingham instead of Mount may resolve that issue. But, don't think Gareth would take that risk.

Bigger issue imo, is Southgate obviously, and one problem is he has hitched his wagon to Raheem Sterling as a starter in our first two games. He's a great impact sub for me. There are so many AM/Forward options we have that could be exploited to the fullest but then again, it starts with a coach who has a whole-team approach from back to front; from defence to attack and makes the best of our resources.

Can only imagine what Mancini would have have done with this squad of players; it's better than Italy's as a squad imo, and how he would have shaped them as a cohesive, fluid unit and team. I'm sure Harry Kane would have seen more of the ball where it counts.

With Southgate, it's not just about the team formations/choices; it's about his whole, historical approach to coaching which is self-defeating. He could have built on the successes he had but he's too fearful as a coach and that will be reflected in his teams' performances.

 

[ohtottenham!]

Did someone get sent off?

May as well have been with Southgate in charge. Seems like we're playing with ten men or even nine sometimes....

 

[Griff001]

You can argue we looked leggy, you can argue that Kane looked well off it, but there is no argument to make for just how shocking Southgate is. He has handled this team of brilliant players terribly - I'm not defending Kane for his overall contribution, but you could tell by his position that he has been told to stay up top, yet no one has actually supplied him with anything. For me, you start him next game with this line-up.

Pickford

Walker Stones Maguire Shaw

Phillips

Sancho Grealish Foden

Kane
​

Give them some freedom to pass the ball forward quickly, feed Kane through the middle, wingbacks/fb's provide the width & I'm sure this team can cause havoc. Disclaimer, I've had a few beers so my judgement might be off somewhat

​

In theory I agree...although playing with 10 players intentionally probably isn't what this team needs right now...

 

[ohtottenham!]

The squad is nowhere near as good as for instance France's, but with Gareth at the helm it's impossible to win anything - so much wrong with his team selections, tactics, substitutions etc.

France are by far the standout in terms of squad quality which is why they're still the favourites. We have a very good squad; deficiencies in some areas like all other top teams do. Agree with your general point re Southgate.

 

[Gassin's finest]

My biggest take from the last two games is that Southgate seems reluctant to play his perfectly good squad in their optimal positions.

And also that aside from Kane (for now) I really am not fussed about England.

 

[mrlilywhite]

Did someone get sent off?

I did say I'd had a few beers and my judgement could be off

 

[spursfan77]

Well, that was dull. Southgate is going to waste these players just like Sven did a decade or so ago.

 

[Romulus]

knowing Gareth he will drop foden and play grealish due to pressure whilst teachers pet mount will stay in the side. he'll even play him left back to accommodate him. the two most creative player England have in the squad are Sancho and Grealish and they've hardly played.

how chillwell is left out the side is a joke too.

 

[1882andallthat]

Scotland are to England what West ham are to us. This is their cup final and put a performance in only to revert to type in the next game!

Exactly, when I saw the conditions, 15 degrees cooler than the Coratia game, wet and drizzly I had an awful feeling of deja vu that it would be like watching many a Spurs v West Ham game where they put up a 5 man blanket in the midfield that smothers us and they show more desire and we fail to play to our strengths and let them dictate how the game is played. So bloody predictable and that's how it played out.

 

[jondesouza]

Ok. So that was awful. From what I can see, in possession we were essentially playing a 4-3-3 with Phillips getting forward on the right and Mount on the left (although swapping positions with Sterling or Foden sometimes). It didn't work for a number of reasons, mostly due to movement off the ball. If a player picks up the ball in a central area they need options - that means that some players have to make runs in behind the opposition defence, if only to make the pitch bigger, and someone has to make a little run into the space ahead of the player with the ball to give an easy option and/or to potentially drag an opposition CB out of the line. None of that happened last night. The forwards were static and we ended up passing in front of Scotland without really threatening to break them down. It reminded me a lot of Spurs last season if I'm honest.

The only times we did get in behind were from longer balls (the Pickford one to Sterling as an example) but those balls are difficult, especially when you're playing up to a short nippy player who, if the ball isn't spot on to feet, can't protect it for long enough to wait for support. Expecting Sterling or Foden to win balls in the air is ludicrous.

It was also a mess out of possession. I think the plan was for Phillips to drop in to create a 2 in front of the back 4 but we were too slow in transition and Rice was overrun. It ended up 1 v 3 in midfield a lot of the time.

I'm not sure where those issues come from - was it the players not doing what they were asked to or was it the tactics? I tend to think it was a bit of both. When Southgate was asked why he swapped Rashford for Kane he said it was because Rashford would make more runs in behind so he was aware of part of the problem. But in that formation is the central striker the right person to be running in behind or should it be the wide forwards?

 

[al_pacino]

Kane's biggest problem for England was the nation's league win in Spain a few years ago. England played really well with Kane dropping deep with Sterling and Rashford running beyond, it worked really well and looked great. Unfortunately that was the best it's ever looked and Kane has been sacrificed to the team ever since.

Saying all that he has looked off the pace in these two games.

 

[ILS]

The amount times Kalvin Phillips found himself in positions on the pitch that he is just not accustomed to. His strength is to play where Rice does. I actually thought he did well against Croatia but not to the levels the pundits and media had us believe.

Souness was spot on with his analysts last night which is rare.

I would put Bellingham and Grealish in for the next game along with Foden and Mount.


Pickford

Walker Stones Mings Shaw/ Chilwell

Bellingham Rice Mount

Foden Kane Grealish

 

[Clark28]

Watching as a neutral I don't understand Southgate's tactics. Seems to be set up to make Kane seem as invisible as possible.

and how does Sterling start over Grealish??

 

[daveduvet]

Such a shame, given the decency within the squad, that Southgate didn’t play to our strengths. He could use a myriad of systems with those players

 

[JeremyPaxton]

I was at Wembley - England made Jose's Spurs look like Pep's 2011 Barca. Utter rubbish. It was basically a stodgy, mid table Cham[ionship standard game.
Southgate was not only far too conservative he was also stubborn - the two holding midfielders were doing nothing and then after 60 minutes of that obviously not working - he took off the only person making any creative runs (Foden) in order to bring on Grealish. Both subs were like-for-like, and since the shape was too conservative, nothing charged.

 

[Shadydan]

Kane's biggest problem for England was the nation's league win in Spain a few years ago. England played really well with Kane dropping deep with Sterling and Rashford running beyond, it worked really well and looked great. Unfortunately that was the best it's ever looked and Kane has been sacrificed to the team ever since.

Saying all that he has looked off the pace in these two games.

It wa before that, he was 'sacrificing' himself in the world cup by dropping deep and allowing Sterling space to run into.

 

[jonnyrotten]

Pickford

James
Maguire
Stones
Chilwell

Rice
Bellingham

Sancho
Grealish
Rashford / Foden

Kane

That should be the team going forward. Still can't believe he played Shaw instead of Chilwell either.

Sterling is such an underwhelming player these days. I also think he plays for himself rather than the team.

Harsh on Phillips but Bellingham is a beast of a player and Grealish needs to play behind Kane so Mount should be benched as well.

Rice has been shit, no way he should keep his place ahead of Phillips

 

[easley91]

Probably controversial but didn't think Grealish added anything when he came on. All he did was get fouled.

And this "oh he must start" narrative the media and fans have drum up is probably not helping Gareth or the other players whatsoever. It's hanging over their heads.