The England Thread

[ReadieSpur]

Christ could you imagine what Ange could do with:

Foden - - - Kane - - - Saka

Maddison - Rice - Bellingham

 

[1882andallthat]

Keeping possession at 2-0 and managing the game wasn't the problem. England hopefully got a reminder though about what happens if players stop wanting to run, get behind the ball, chase back and get into shape, etc. For 5-10 mins there were four or five players being really lazy and not doing any defensive work, and this was the only spell Scotland did anything and had any threat. Apart from that was a comfortable stroll in second gear, with a million miles of difference between the sides.

As an Engllashman I'm glad we won 3-1 in the end but it's these 15-20 spells where we drop off that are going to be the difference between whether we finally get our hands on another international trophy or not.

The gap in class and quality beteeen us and Scotland tonight was there for all to see, but there could have been a period in that game where Scotland might have dragged that game back to 2-2, not because they deserved to but because for the first 15-20 of that second half we were lazy and completely went into walking pace mode, bordering on arrogant complacency. There was quite simply no excuse whatsoever for a drop in performance by that much, because it wasn't as if we were run off our feet and knackered.

It's those little details which will define us in whether we take the final step and win a tournament because against better sides than Scotland in later stages in tournaments if we do that we really will let sides back into the game with that unnecessary sloppiness and pay the price. We could and should have had the same intensity coming out in the second half to kill that game off by getting another couple of goals or turning the screw, not slacking off. I get it if the opposition come out and massively up their intensity and outplay us to get back into a game but that didn't happen here, we just downed tools and slacked off inviting trouble.

It wasn't all negative there were some excellent performances. Lewis Dunk was very assured and Jude Bellingham gets better with every game, he was top quality tonight.

Cut out those slack and sloppy periods of play and there's every chance we could do something really special.

 

[mark87]

Christ could you imagine what Ange could do with:

Foden - - - Kane - - - Saka

Maddison - Rice - Bellingham

I'd only ever wanna imagine it.

 

[Partizan]

A timely reminder when earlier this year Maguire even got a mention on Ghana's parliament of all places

 

[Frank Blank]

Some post-match Southgate quotes regarding Maguire. Via the Beeb.

He said: "From a Scotland fan's point of view I get it. I have absolutely no complaint with what they did. It's a consequence of ridiculous treatment of him for a long period of time.

"It's a joke. I've never known a player treated the way he is. Not by the Scottish fans but by our own commentators, pundits or whatever it is. They've created something that's beyond anything I've ever seen."

No, Gareth, you melt, it's only a joke if the joke is on us.

 

[Frank Blank]

Christ could you imagine what Ange could do with:

Foden - - - Kane - - - Saka

Maddison - Rice - Bellingham

And just imagine if Haaland played for the country of his birth. Maybe in a parallel universe he does.

 

[UncleBuck]

Hopefully Southgate is gone after the Euros and they can get a manager who isn't wasting this generation of talent. I'm tempted not to watch, I've had enough of shit negative football over the last 4 years.

Four years? Honestly I switched off after Tel and Glen, the managerial appointments the FA have made since then have been absolutely atrocious and don’t do anything for the players at their disposal!

 

[ItsBoris]

Decent performance overall, not perfect but the criticism Southgate gets is OTT.

One for the unpopular opinions thread perhaps.

I don't think it's over the top, it's like he never watches these players play for their clubs. How else could you prefer Maguire to Tomori? 5th choice center back at Man Utd vs a regular starter in a serie A winning team and CL semifinals.

Also most England players (especially the best ones) play in sides that are far more attacking and progressive than how Southgate sets England up.

Either the guy is a moron, or he's not putting any effort in and just collecting his checks, and going off performances he remembers in England shirts from years ago. Or a mix of the two. The entire watching world can see his judgment is shit.

 

[worcestersauce]

I don't think it's over the top, it's like he never watches these players play for their clubs. How else could you prefer Maguire to Tomori? 5th choice center back at Man Utd vs a regular starter in a serie A winning team and CL semifinals.

Also most England players (especially the best ones) play in sides that are far more attacking and progressive than how Southgate sets England up.

Either the guy is a moron, or he's not putting any effort in and just collecting his checks, and going off performances he remembers in England shirts from years ago. Or a mix of the two. The entire watching world can see his judgment is shit.

How is he supposed to watch Maguire play for his club?

 

[ItsBoris]

How is he supposed to watch Maguire play for his club?

That’s the point....

it’s like he pays no attention to these players’ actual careers

 

[Ghost Hardware]

He genuinely reminds me of Zidane the way he moves with the ball and shields it

 

[easley91]

"International friendlies don't matter"

"FFS why is Maguire coming on?! Why are we sitting back?! Why are we not killing this off?! Why is Maddison not playing when I want him to rest?! "

Either care or don't. Pick one. Some of you claim you don't care wanting our players to be rested and then go on about it as if it's a world cup final.

Oh and aside from the OG Maguire was fine, his passing was good even with the crowd doing what they did. Feel for him.

 

[Trix]

He genuinely reminds me of Zidane the way he moves with the ball and shields it

Said exactly the same to my lad yesterday. Only difference is I was comparing him to 30yo Zidane because he's miles better than the 20yo version.

 

[muppetman]

Either the guy is a moron, or he's not putting any effort in and just collecting his checks, and going off performances he remembers in England shirts from years ago. Or a mix of the two. The entire watching world can see his judgment is shit.

I think this is incredibly harsh - we did win the game didn't we? Fairly comfortably?

International football is a different beast to playing in the Prem week in, week out and it's more important to not lose than anything else. Are there many international sides playing swashbuckling, attacking football?

As for Maguire, I think he's wrong to pick him, but we aren't exactly blessed with tons of CBs in this country. Dunk last night for example was great at defending corners and free kicks but looked pretty uncomfortable on the ball at times and wasn't really pressured.

I think he is too loyal to players he likes, but I can understand that it takes a long time for partnerships to form at international level and so he's not mad keen on tinkering.

Every time we have a couple of decent players, the fans think we should be smashing everyone 5-0 and I just think that's unrealistic.

Out of our squad we have Kane that walks into a world XI, Bellingham may one day be world class but most of the rest are somewhere between average (Maguire and Henderson), good on their day (Rice, Ramsdale and Trippier) and some that have flashes of brilliance (Foden and Grealish).

I'd say England are in the top bracket of international sides along with France, Brasil, Argentina etc and so should be beating teams below them fairly comfortably (which we generally do) and then it's a fine margin at the tail end of competitions.

It's weird to me that team after team underperforms but it's always the manager's fault - manager after manager after manager, maybe it's that the players aren't quite as good as many think.

 

[Timbo Tottenham]

 

[ItsBoris]

I think this is incredibly harsh - we did win the game didn't we? Fairly comfortably?

International football is a different beast to playing in the Prem week in, week out and it's more important to not lose than anything else. Are there many international sides playing swashbuckling, attacking football?

As for Maguire, I think he's wrong to pick him, but we aren't exactly blessed with tons of CBs in this country. Dunk last night for example was great at defending corners and free kicks but looked pretty uncomfortable on the ball at times and wasn't really pressured.

I think he is too loyal to players he likes, but I can understand that it takes a long time for partnerships to form at international level and so he's not mad keen on tinkering.

Every time we have a couple of decent players, the fans think we should be smashing everyone 5-0 and I just think that's unrealistic.

Out of our squad we have Kane that walks into a world XI, Bellingham may one day be world class but most of the rest are somewhere between average (Maguire and Henderson), good on their day (Rice, Ramsdale and Trippier) and some that have flashes of brilliance (Foden and Grealish).

I'd say England are in the top bracket of international sides along with France, Brasil, Argentina etc and so should be beating teams below them fairly comfortably (which we generally do) and then it's a fine margin at the tail end of competitions.

It's weird to me that team after team underperforms but it's always the manager's fault - manager after manager after manager, maybe it's that the players aren't quite as good as many think.

Well I don't think beating Scotland is too relevant to the discussion. England should be beating Scotland and Ukraine comfortably with the quality in this squad.

The issue is the ability to compete with the top teams in the world. If you have a manager making nonsensical inclusions in the team and playing players out of position how can you expect to do that? Reminds me of Gareth Barry being ahead of Michael Carrick in the pecking order in 2010, just made absolutely zero sense. 4-4-2 with Gerrard on the left wing and Barry/Lampard midfield two.

When you ask about manager after manager - just go back and look at their team, squad, and formation selections and try to tell me that the problem isn't specifically the idiotic managers that England have employed over the years that have squandered the talent at their disposal.

And I'm not saying you have to play swashbuckling football but most of these players are in club teams that do play attacking football (because they play for some of the best teams in the world) and so if you ask them to sit back and play a cautious game instead it's really not what they're used to doing. If you look at what is probably England's best 11, most of the players come from Man City, Bayern, Real Madrid, Arsenal, and Liverpool. I'd include Maddison for us too. None of these teams play cautiously to just not lose.

 

[muppetman]

Well I don't think beating Scotland is too relevant to the discussion. England should be beating Scotland and Ukraine comfortably with the quality in this squad.

The issue is the ability to compete with the top teams in the world. If you have a manager making nonsensical inclusions in the team and playing players out of position how can you expect to do that? Reminds me of Gareth Barry being ahead of Michael Carrick in the pecking order in 2010, just made absolutely zero sense. 4-4-2 with Gerrard on the left wing and Barry/Lampard midfield two.

When you ask about manager after manager - just go back and look at their team, squad, and formation selections and try to tell me that the problem isn't specifically the idiotic managers that England have employed over the years that have squandered the talent at their disposal.

And I'm not saying you have to play swashbuckling football but most of these players are in club teams that do play attacking football (because they play for some of the best teams in the world) and so if you ask them to sit back and play a cautious game instead it's really not what they're used to doing. If you look at what is probably England's best 11, most of the players come from Man City, Bayern, Real Madrid, Arsenal, and Liverpool. I'd include Maddison for us too. None of these teams play cautiously to just not lose.

Very few teams in the world win consistently, even the very best. Italy are shit, Germany are shit - but presumably they don't have players of the quality of Trippier and Rashford .

We are consistently competitive with the very best and have gotten closer under Southgate than for the very longest time. Would I like it if he was a little more adventurous - yes, but he generally gets results. Scotland are clearly shit but the crowd was bang up for it and it could easily have been a banana skin. Southgate's managed to form a very strong group who play for each other and seem to get on. We are seeing at Spurs now with Ange, the importance of a positive environment and good team ethic.

I think managing a national team is a really odd job and not comparable with City, Madrid, Bayern etc where they basically live in each other's pocket and can tweak things per opposition, which is why I think he sticks with players who fit the dynamic and work well together. I personally think he is wrong with Maguire and Henderson, but I can at least understand why he does it.

TLDR: I think your expectations are a little unrealistic, but it's all about onions. What I didn't like was calling him a moron or a fraud, I think it's wrong and unnecessary.

 

[HildoSpur]

Bellingham appears to be stepping up consistently now and developing really impressively. The way he has taken the Madrid move in his stride speaks volumes.

 

[easley91]

Very few teams in the world win consistently, even the very best. Italy are shit, Germany are shit - but presumably they don't have players of the quality of Trippier and Rashford .

We are consistently competitive with the very best and have gotten closer under Southgate than for the very longest time. Would I like it if he was a little more adventurous - yes, but he generally gets results. Scotland are clearly shit but the crowd was bang up for it and it could easily have been a banana skin. Southgate's managed to form a very strong group who play for each other and seem to get on. We are seeing at Spurs now with Ange, the importance of a positive environment and good team ethic.

I think managing a national team is a really odd job and not comparable with City, Madrid, Bayern etc where they basically live in each other's pocket and can tweak things per opposition, which is why I think he sticks with players who fit the dynamic and work well together. I personally think he is wrong with Maguire and Henderson, but I can at least understand why he does it.

TLDR: I think your expectations are a little unrealistic, but it's all about onions. What I didn't like was calling him a moron or a fraud, I think it's wrong and unnecessary.

Based on current form I disagree, since they are top of their group (includes Spain and Haaland's Norway) with 5 wins out of 5. I believe in 2023 they have won every game at Hampden up until last night (sure I heard that on comms last night but could be wrong). So it was never a gimme or a walk over, especially away v them.

Groups & Standings | European Qualifiers

Complete table of European Qualifiers latest group stage standings. Updated instantly after every game. Visit UEFA for more information.

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Southgate gets things wrong, but so does most. He has done more for us that his predecessors. Got us to a major semi final and final in back to back tournaments. nothing to be sniffed at. It is maybe time for a change, but he gets more abuse than is warranted. I thought on the whole last night was a lot better than Saturday. The passing going forward had more urgency certainly.

 

[Timbo Tottenham]

Based on current form I disagree, since they are top of their group (includes Spain and Haaland's Norway) with 5 wins out of 5. I believe in 2023 they have won every game at Hampden up until last night (sure I heard that on comms last night but could be wrong). So it was never a gimme or a walk over, especially away v them.

Groups & Standings | European Qualifiers

Complete table of European Qualifiers latest group stage standings. Updated instantly after every game. Visit UEFA for more information.

www.uefa.com

Southgate gets things wrong, but so does most. He has done more for us that his predecessors. Got us to a major semi final and final in back to back tournaments. nothing to be sniffed at. It is maybe time for a change, but he gets more abuse than is warranted. I thought on the whole last night was a lot better than Saturday. The passing going forward had more urgency certainly.

Scotland had won 11 in a row up until last night and beaten Spain in their qualifying group as part of that. By no means a gimme, especially in that atmosphere.