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The future of scouting??

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,445
14,167


I saw this in the Guardian and it seemed very interesting...
This seems to be a very smart system for scouting...(If you cant be bothered to read the whole article, read just the bold text)
Tottenham net role in revolution as Beane pitches success on a budget


<H1>Baseball wizard believes his science can make diamonds of Premier League plodders, he tells Lawrence Donegan

Billy Beane, Tottenham Hotspur fanatic and the central character in Moneyball, the most compelling American sports book in a generation, has limited experience of life among the royalty of English football but he has learned enough already to genuflect at the appropriate moments. "There are some coaches who can change the atmosphere just by walking into the room," he said, kicking back behind the desk from where he runs the Oakland Athletics baseball team. "And he is one of those people."

</H1>The Athletics' general manager is talking about Sir Alex Ferguson, whom he met at a conference in London in December. But he could be talking about himself. Last summer, an ownership group of which Beane is a partner announced it had bought the San Jose Earthquakes of Major League Soccer and immediately the atmosphere around the executive offices of MLS changed. "People sat up and took notice," said someone who knows the league better than most. "The attitude around the league was that if Beane is getting involved then we better know how he operates and what that will mean for the rest of us. You can take it from me a lot of the executives have been told to read Moneyball."


When those executives read the book - written by the business journalist Michael Lewis - they will have found a fascinating exposé of how Beane took the struggling Athletics, a small team with a limited budget, and transformed them into contenders in a league dominated by the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox, a cash-rich pair whose spending habits are comparable with Roman Abramovich's.

Beane performed his minor miracle by throwing out the prevailing baseball wisdom that said instinct and experience were paramount when it came to identifying talent. Instead, he embraced a pseudo-science called Sabermetrics, in which every piece of action on the baseball field could be broken down and quantified and resulting numbers - not the eyes and ears of a wizened old baseball scout - were the ultimate judge of a player's abilities.

Other members of the baseball fraternity had long placed some weight on statistics but Beane also surmised they were looking at the wrong statistics. For instance, instead of accepting the tradition that said a hitter be judged by his batting average (the number of hits divided by the number of times he batted) Beane looked at his "on base percentage"; a statistic that took account of not just a batter's ability to hit the ball but also his ability to make the pitcher miss the strike zone four times, thereby allowing the batter to walk to first base - a much less eye-catching talent than hitting the ball but one which achieved exactly the same result.

It all sounds very complicated to those who know little of baseball but Beane, who clearly spends a lot of time reading business manuals and cites the investment guru Warren Buffet rather than Babe Ruth as his all-time hero, has honed a wallet-sized explanation. "The idea is that we were seeking undervalued assets in an inefficient market," he said. "What we tried to do was find value in areas where most people weren't necessarily applying the right values. And we did that cost-effectively."

This mantra of cost-effectiveness might not hold much appeal at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge but there is a huge swathe of the football world, from the MLS to the middle of the Premier League, who face the same economic realities as Beane faced at the Athletics and would gladly embrace his philosophy if it meant they could have a better team for the same, or smaller, outlay.

It is early days but Beane may soon be in a position to help them do exactly that. "I first got interested in English soccer when I visited London in 2003 and what struck me was the passion and the emotion that surrounded the game," he said. "And it sparked my interest from a business standpoint because where there is emotion in sport there is emotional decisions."

Over the past five years Beane has developed an emotional attachment of his own, to Spurs. He watches English football on cable TV whenever he can, is an avid listener of the Guardian's weekly football podcast and has also forged some close friendships with leading figures in the English game, including Spurs' chief executive, Damien Comolli. He has also started working with Professor Bill Gerrard from Leeds Business School with a view to developing a system for evaluating football players based on statistics gathered during games. "Big teams like Manchester United can get the best players because they have got the resources but most clubs can't do business the Manchester United way and expect to survive, never mind compete. The trick is to find a way to compete, using metrics [statistics] and finding areas that have been neglected," he said.

The main difficulty the pair have faced is that while a sport such as baseball can be easily broken down into individual events - a pitch, a hit, a catch - football is a much more fluid game, which makes it more difficult to isolate cause and effect. Nevertheless, Beane seems determined. "Say you have an approach to signing players and you get it right 30% of the time and then you can discover a different approach that allows you to do the right thing 35% of the time, you have then created a 5% arbitrage. I don't know if we can do that for soccer but I want to find out."

Beane is reluctant to go into specific detail about the work he is doing with Gerrard, understandably so because the marketplace for statistical analysis of professional football has become crowded in recent years with the likes of ProZone and Opta competing for vast sums.

However it is surely no coincidence that before the start of the latest MLS season executives from the San Jose Earthquakes, the team partly owned by Beane, spent the night before the league's annual draft holed up in the offices of an Oakland-based company called Match Analysis, which has developed a system of statistically analysing football matches and backing up their assessment of individual players with video evidence.

"You don't need statistics to spot the real great players or the really bad ones. The trick is to take the players between those two extremes and identify which are the best ones," said the Match Analysis company president, Mark Brunkhart, a fervent believer that the methods Beane popularised in baseball will soon be widespread in football. "If all you do is buy the players that everyone else wants to buy then you will end up paying top dollar. But if you take Beane's approach - to use a disciplined statistical process to influence the selection of players who will bring the most value - then you are giving yourself the best chance of success. Who would not want to do that?" Who indeed.

Applied to football . . .
Four areas where Sabermetrics scientifically identify the best footballers

1. Number of touches
A measurement of how often a player is involved on the ball
What it reveals Player's fitness level, the number of times he gets into a position to receive the ball and team-mates' willingness to pass to him

2. Shot creation
The number of times a player participates in a possession leading to a shot (both on target and off)
Reveals The attacking effectiveness of a player, especially attacking midfielders and forwards. Measures ability to balance ball retention with creating scoring chances

3. Ability to retain the ball
A measurement of the probability that the next player who touches the ball will be a member of your team
Reveals Contribution of players who are less directly involved in attack

4. Balls won per 90 minutes
Measures defensive effectiveness Reveals Attacking players' willingness to defend; defenders' ability to tackle, intercept passes and position themselves well
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
inntteresting dont think that system will work tooo well tho'
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,445
14,167
inntteresting dont think that system will work tooo well tho'

What makes you say that?

I think it is a very intelligent system for establishing the most effective players.

For example the shot creation stat is very insightful.
Establishing whether a player's contribution (directly or indirectly) has resulted in a shot on goal. This may not necessarily mean an assist but possibly the pass leading to an assist. I'm sure certain players are highly stacked with those type of contributions but never really get the credit for it.
 

michaelden

Knight of the Fat Fanny
Aug 13, 2004
26,458
21,824
Very interesting. As it says, the truely great players are all known but it will help in sorting the better from the average players.

Just imagine the fun we could have if we were given access to the ProZone match data?!
 

nickspurs

SC Supporter
May 13, 2005
1,608
1,389
Over the past five years Beane has developed an emotional attachment of his own, to Spurs. He watches English football on cable TV whenever he can, is an avid listener of the Guardian's weekly football podcast and has also forged some close friendships with leading figures in the English game, including Spurs' chief executive, Damien Comolli.

So can we indirectly blame Beane for us buying Zoko and Bent?

Just joshing chaps.... :wink:
 

stickyfinger

SC Supporter
Oct 22, 2005
231
14
What makes you say that?

I think it is a very intelligent system for establishing the most effective players.

For example the shot creation stat is very insightful.
Establishing whether a player's contribution (directly or indirectly) has resulted in a shot on goal. This may not necessarily mean an assist but possibly the pass leading to an assist. I'm sure certain players are highly stacked with those type of contributions but never really get the credit for it.

I'm in agreement, but I'm surprised such things don't already go on at scouting level already. Would have thought the clubs would have more insight than just goal, assist and how far a player runs stats. The concept of pre-assists popped up in another thread, I don't know if there are numbers for that, but there ought to be some measure for quantifying such things. And things beyond that, the nebulous concepts such as workrate and whatever else gets tossed around in justification for this or that player .. the selfless stuff that contributes to football and largely goes unnoticed.

Interesting.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,996
45,305
Interesting post I have heard of him before, someone i know read the book.

I think the basis is that the big teams get the really top players but there are always others in the team that are not as good so if you can get all of your players better than the not so good players at the top club then you ballance the odds.

Good Idea but I can't help thinking that it's becoming more and more the case that the top clubs have the money to get all the top players and even the just good players to keep in the squad preventing teams like Beane's getting them.

Pleased to think we are taking it seriously though.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
What makes you say that?

I think it is a very intelligent system for establishing the most effective players.

For example the shot creation stat is very insightful.
Establishing whether a player's contribution (directly or indirectly) has resulted in a shot on goal. This may not necessarily mean an assist but possibly the pass leading to an assist. I'm sure certain players are highly stacked with those type of contributions but never really get the credit for it.

certainly I've been highlighting the number of 'pre-assists' Berbs has for us - where he plays a crucial role in a goal

eg the goal v Boro the other week, 3 of the goals v AFC in the 5-1, plenty of others besides

add those to Berbs goals and assists and i reckon he probably delivers more product than Torres - probably only Ronaldo in the Prem is more productive

it's doubtless some people have recognised this, hence Berbs high market value (of course lots of factors influence a player's price)
 

striebs

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
4,504
667
Just a management consultant touting his wares isn't he ?

Designed to appeal to people who are grasping at straws because they don't have the fundamental knowledge and understanding of the domain .

Give them false hope that there is somehow a cook-book approach the success .

All this talk of measuring an be like crack to people who spend all day talking about KPI's and metrics but it's worrying if a supposed football person like DC is sucked in by it .

There are no silver bullets .
 

MattWilliams

Active Member
Jul 14, 2004
2,417
57
Isn't this what people like Wenger do already? I'm pretty sure he's a statistics freak, especially looking at how long players hold onto the ball and how often they get on the ball to start with. Sounds like pretty old hat to be honest.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Fucking brilliant find Locotoro. This is exactly the argument I have used many times with a player like Kanoute when arguing with SS57 etc. SS would argue that the bare stats would suggest that Mido was a better player. But I would argue that it was the amount of times Kanoute would drop deep or wide and hold the ball and eventually lay it off or just offer himself as an outlet for a teamate who needed one that kept possession etc. Those touches would not always register as direct assists or goals if they were foreinstance one touch removed from the assist.

Same goes for Berbatov this season, where Ramos has him playing that Kanoute role. Or People like Zokora or Jenas or Malbranque who just through making themselves available to receive the ball and then move it simply contribute to our generally having the better of possession against most teams. And as I have always maintained. The other team can't score when you have the ball.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Fucking brilliant find Locotoro. This is exactly the argument I have used many times with a player like Kanoute when arguing with SS57 etc. SS would argue that the bare stats would suggest that Mido was a better player. But I would argue that it was the amount of times Kanoute would drop deep or wide and hold the ball and eventually lay it off or just offer himself as an outlet for a teamate who needed one that kept possession etc. Those touches would not always register as direct assists or goals if they were foreinstance one touch removed from the assist.

Same goes for Berbatov this season, where Ramos has him playing that Kanoute role. Or People like Zokora or Jenas or Malbranque who just through making themselves available to receive the ball and then move it simply contribute to our generally having the better of possession against most teams. And as I have always maintained. The other team can't score when you have the ball.

No, I wouldn't, and never have. In fact, I've stated on numerous occasions that the Blessed Martyr St. Fredi was the more talented footballer, had a better positional sense, blahdeblahdeblah. But since 'raw' stats—goals, primary assists, passing and tackling percentages—are all that are available to us oicks, they are all that can be quoted, and raw stats say that Mido was a more effective goalscorer and chipped in a similar number of assists. All the rest is subjective.

And before you go off foaming at the mouth again, when the majority of people on here go misty-eyed over Fredi, it's not the subtleties they're interested in, it's the goals he scored last season. The assumption is that he would do what he failed to do for us and the Spammers.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
No, I wouldn't, and never have. In fact, I've stated on numerous occasions that the Blessed Martyr St. Fredi was the more talented footballer, had a better positional sense, blahdeblahdeblah. But since 'raw' stats—goals, primary assists, passing and tackling percentages—are all that are available to us oicks, they are all that can be quoted, and raw stats say that Mido was a more effective goalscorer and chipped in a similar number of assists. All the rest is subjective.

And before you go off foaming at the mouth again, when the majority of people on here go misty-eyed over Fredi, it's not the subtleties they're interested in, it's the goals he scored last season. The assumption is that he would do what he failed to do for us and the Spammers.


But here's the rub SS. You know with me it's not the goals. But what he did for the team. He was jetisoned by a manager who didn't realise what he had. He didn't cause half the problems that Berbatov (or his agent have) and he applied himself to a higher percentage of games (until lately)but in ability, if used correctly, he was just as effective at enhancing the pereformance of a team. It's not always the players that get the glory that contribute the most.

And in case you missed it, that was the whole point of this thread.
 

guy

SC Supporter
May 31, 2007
4,510
6,183
carrick is the otehr players whos been mentioned with pre-assists and all that. If you counted his stats entirely you would see why he went for 18mill
 

pagevee

Ehhhh, What's up Doc?
Oct 4, 2006
644
147
I saw this in the Guardian and it seemed very interesting...
This seems to be a very smart system for scouting...(If you cant be bothered to read the whole article, read just the bold text)
Tottenham net role in revolution as Beane pitches success on a budget

Great find. Interesting if it works out. He definitely turned around the A's. They have the best scouting network of all MLB. The Twins are a close second in my opinion but the A's take it. We shall see how quickly the Earthquakes pick up in the MLS. Great work with the find regardless.:beer:
 

Kyras

Tom Huddlestone's one man fan club
Feb 2, 2005
3,272
4
But scouts already look at stuff like that, and on top of that, they can assess other attributes and their all round game as a whole. Scouts can see that Adel Taarabt gets into good scoring positions and blazes his shots wide or over a lot of the time, he also gets the ball alot and hangs on to it. Having these stats would not show real scouts anything they hadn't realised already.
 

striebs

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
4,504
667
But scouts already look at stuff like that, and on top of that, they can assess other attributes and their all round game as a whole. Scouts can see that Adel Taarabt gets into good scoring positions and blazes his shots wide or over a lot of the time, he also gets the ball alot and hangs on to it. Having these stats would not show real scouts anything they hadn't realised already.

Exactly , it's the old joke about the Shepherd and the Consultant .
 
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