The future of scouting??

[DC_Boy]

good scouts would presumably be picking up on some/all these things -

maybe it would help some of our scouts though ;-) that's a joke BTW - I've no idea who's to blame for the fact that we don't seem to do as well as some/ a lot of other prem teams in picking up good cheap/undiscovered talent

also would love these type of stats to be available for us fans - as I think it helps our understanding

 

[Bus-Conductor]

good scouts would presumably be picking up on some/all these things -

maybe it would help some of our scouts though ;-) that's a joke BTW - I've no idea who's to blame for the fact that we don't seem to do as well as some/ a lot of other prem teams in picking up good cheap/undiscovered talent

also would love these type of stats to be available for us fans - as I think it helps our understanding

You mean like Huddlestone, Lennon, Dixon, Peckhart, Birchichie, Rose, Olsen, Ohara, Mills, Dervitte, Parret etc.

There are strict geographical limitations on where you can recruit your young players from. Which means that we are competing for youngsters with every club in London compared to provincial sides who have far fewer sharks swimming in a larger pool. It's why it's easier to recruit foreign talent than those in your own back yard. There are no limitations.

 

[DC_Boy]

You mean like Huddlestone, Lennon, Dixon, Peckhart, Birchichie, Rose, Olsen, Ohara, Mills, Dervitte, Parret etc.

There are strict geographical limitations on where you can recruit your young players from. Which means that we are competing for youngsters with every club in London compared to provincial sides who have far fewer sharks swimming in a larger pool. It's why it's easier to recruit foreign talent than those in your own back yard. There are no limitations.

Hudd wasn't scouted in the sense that he was already at a club - we had the clout to get him then - similar Lennon nor O'Hara - we got them all after they'd been scouted - the rest haven't made it yet-

fair play for picking tham up for cheap - but I repeat my point I've no idea who's to blame for the fact that we don't seem to do as well as some/ a lot of other prem teams in picking up good cheap/undiscovered talent

I don't think that list disproves my point - so I stick by it

I think most some/alot of prem clubs could come up with better than getting two cheap players from established clubs and someone from the AFC academy

here's one club straight away - Arsenal

here's another - Boro

here's another man City

West Ham is a possible - depends on time frame we're talking about

I think I've proved my point without even going on google

 

[striebs]

But here's the rub SS. You know with me it's not the goals. But what he did for the team. He was jetisoned by a manager who didn't realise what he had. He didn't cause half the problems that Berbatov (or his agent have) and he applied himself to a higher percentage of games (until lately)but in ability, if used correctly, he was just as effective at enhancing the pereformance of a team. It's not always the players that get the glory that contribute the most.

And in case you missed it, that was the whole point of this thread.

Good point about Fredi , I have always been a big fan of his and agree that he is effective and his attitude was better than he got credit for from some .

Losing such a key player over apoxy post season tour when he should have been with his family is a blot on Jol's otherwise good record .

 

[Locotoro]

But scouts already look at stuff like that, and on top of that, they can assess other attributes and their all round game as a whole. Scouts can see that Adel Taarabt gets into good scoring positions and blazes his shots wide or over a lot of the time, he also gets the ball alot and hangs on to it. Having these stats would not show real scouts anything they hadn't realised already.

I think its important to remember that this system will not replace the established format for clubs like chelsea and ManU who will throw money at a 16yr old and bring him in.

Its aim is to pick up the best of the rest. The ones who would normally fall through the net. Im sure we can all appreciate that certain players look distinctly average at first glance, but over a prolonged period of time appears to be more astute and tactically aware and disciplined than his unpredictable team mate who catches the eye more often than not. A good example of this would be say Makalele at Real Madrid. How many people appreciated his importance in the team with Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo. We all know what happened when he left.

As a result of his 'less than obvious' abilities in reading the game, positional sense and on the ball strength, the position he occupies has been named after him, something that even some of the greats fail to achieve.

Getting those players who have the most effective ability as opposed to the eye opening ability is where this article is leading.

 

[worcestersauce]

Just a management consultant touting his wares isn't he ?

Designed to appeal to people who are grasping at straws because they don't have the fundamental knowledge and understanding of the domain .

Give them false hope that there is somehow a cook-book approach the success .

All this talk of measuring an be like crack to people who spend all day talking about KPI's and metrics but it's worrying if a supposed football person like DC is sucked in by it .

There are no silver bullets .

Not quite like that striebs, he has actually done it, effectively taken Bristol City to the prem top four and kept them there.
As he might say (him being a yank) he has walked the walk not just talked the talk.

My concern would be that he may just be a natural coach with the ability to judge a player's strengths and get a team playing as a team, he may not even realise it but if you can do that then stats don't matter.

 

[jimbo]

The other team can't score when you have the ball.

Unless it's an own goal.

Sorry.

 

[SpurSince57]

The number of touches stat might go some way to explaining Chimbonda's continuing inclusion.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Hudd wasn't scouted in the sense that he was already at a club - we had the clout to get him then - similar Lennon nor O'Hara - we got them all after they'd been scouted - the rest haven't made it yet-

fair play for picking tham up for cheap - but I repeat my point I've no idea who's to blame for the fact that we don't seem to do as well as some/ a lot of other prem teams in picking up good cheap/undiscovered talent

I don't think that list disproves my point - so I stick by it

I think most some/alot of prem clubs could come up with better than getting two cheap players from established clubs and someone from the AFC academy

here's one club straight away - Arsenal

here's another - Boro

here's another man City

West Ham is a possible - depends on time frame we're talking about


I think I've proved my point without even going on google

DC are you serious, Arsenal ? I don't think one member of their current first team squad was scouted locally as a kid.
Hoyte might be the closest to the squad but I can't think of too many others.

Boro & ManCity are good examples but as I explained they don't have the recruitment problems London teams do.

 

[DC_Boy]

DC are you serious, Arsenal ? I don't think one member of their current first team squad was scouted locally as a kid.
Hoyte might be the closest to the squad but I can't think of too many others.

Boro & ManCity are good examples but as I explained they don't have the recruitment problems London teams do.

HI BC - Of course I'm massively serious if you're including Huddlestone Lennon what about all the players AFC have picked up on the cheap?

you're just contradicting yourself by now talking about local kids - how are Hudd & Lennon local?

the only local that's made it recently we've got came from Arsenal

my original point still stands

 

[Bus-Conductor]

HI BC - Of course I'm massively serious if you're including Huddlestone Lennon what about all the players AFC have picked up on the cheap?

you're just contradicting yourself by now talking about local kids - how are Hudd & Lennon local?

the only local that's made it recently we've got came from Arsenal

my original point still stands

You are correct when talking about local development of players. But the point I was making was that it has become very hard to do this due to geographical restrictions put on a teams scouting. Which is why it has now become the norm to procure players aged 16-18 from other clubs here and around europe. (I still think you were wrong about arsenal though - they are the worst example of a team that benefits in playing terms from it's own youth system (although it has to be said that other teams do benefit from it)

 

[DC_Boy]

You are correct when talking about local development of players. But the point I was making was that it has become very hard to do this due to geographical restrictions put on a teams scouting. Which is why it has now become the norm to procure players aged 16-18 from other clubs here and around europe. (I still think you were wrong about arsenal though - they are the worst example of a team that benefits in playing terms from it's own youth system (although it has to be said that other teams do benefit from it)

Hi BC

well I don't accept I am wrong about AFC -here's some players that in my mind (I haven't googled) they got cheap/free as youngsters - Fabregas Bendntner Traore Diaby

I bet if this argument is gonna develop I can find more - cos I will start googling

those players are worth way more than Hudd Lennon and O'Hara

whereas if you're talking about the traditional idea of scouting - finding local yoof - then it's AFc who scouted O'Hara - and we have no-one else young in our first team that's local yoof scouted

if you go back to King - then West Ham beat us hands down

so my original point still stands

you shifted us into the non-traditional scouting idea by bringing up Hudd & Lennon

and to be fair I think that's what this article includees-

but Fabregas Bendtner Traore Diaby Hoyte - maybe Adebayor Clichy - sees AFC winning hands down on finding young uns cheap/free and making prem players of them

 

[houstonspur]

What makes you say that?

I think it is a very intelligent system for establishing the most effective players.

For example the shot creation stat is very insightful.
Establishing whether a player's contribution (directly or indirectly) has resulted in a shot on goal. This may not necessarily mean an assist but possibly the pass leading to an assist. I'm sure certain players are highly stacked with those type of contributions but never really get the credit for it.

The one flaw with using stats is that you overlook things such as physical talents, physical size, etc.

An argument can be made that at the end of the day, production is all that matters, but you need to have a roster that has good size and speed to match up with teams that have a bevy of it ie. Man U.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Hi BC

well I don't accept I am wrong about AFC -here's some players that in my mind (I haven't googled) they got cheap/free as youngsters - Fabregas Bendntner Traore Diaby

I bet if this argument is gonna develop I can find more - cos I will start googling

those players are worth way more than Hudd Lennon and O'Hara

whereas if you're talking about the traditional idea of scouting - finding local yoof - then it's AFc who scouted O'Hara - and we have no-one else young in our first team that's local yoof scouted

if you go back to King - then West Ham beat us hands down

so my original point still stands

you shifted us into the non-traditional scouting idea by bringing up Hudd & Lennon

and to be fair I think that's what this article includees-

but Fabregas Bendtner Traore Diaby Hoyte - maybe Adebayor Clichy - sees AFC winning hands down on finding young uns cheap/free and making prem players of them

DC
Don't be fucking silly mate.

Fabregas came from Barca's youth team
Bendtner is Danish (from a club in Copenhagan)
Traore is French (previously with Monaco)
Diaby is French (from PSG)
Clichey is French (from Cannes)
Addebayor is Togolise (from Monaco)

Of Arsenal's current squad only Hoyte and Walcot are English and Walcot came from the same eplace we got Bale (who I forgot to mention). Southampton.

What talent spotting has come down to is a battle for who can "nick" the best talent from around the globe. Arsenal are amongst the best in europe at it. We are trying to catch up.

 

[SpurSince57]

And some people—and I would include a lot of Gooners amongst them—would dispute that Bendtner, Diaby and Hoyte are premier league players.

I think we've got a little sidetracked anyway, for the original article wasn't really talking about youngsters. It's how detailed stats—far more detailed than those that are publicly available—can identify strengths and weaknesses that can be overlooked by even the most experienced scouts, let alone Joe Bloke watching in the stands or on the TV.

Just one example that may explain one of Ramos' apparently more baffling decisions, to employ Chimbonda at LB.

1. Number of touches
A measurement of how often a player is involved on the ball
What it reveals Player's fitness level, the number of times he gets into a position to receive the ball and team-mates' willingness to pass to him

It surprised me, listening to the 949 commentary a few games back, to hear Bradley Allen say that Chimbonda had had more touches of the ball than any other player in the EPL except Clichy. Presumably Brad has access to stats that we don't, but just a glance at the Telegraph stats reveals that Chimbonda has passed the ball more often than any other player in the team, and is highly accurate with it—and he has five results. Bearing that in mind, it seems possible that Ramos decided that Chimbonda's value in this respect outweighed his defensive frailties.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Exactly SS. The same logic is why I have always supported Zokora contribution. It's easy to say Zokora not fucking Viera. Zokora isn't Gerrard. Fucking brilliant. What people (and I know you have come to appreciate this and said as much) without an ability to see past the eye catching glorious don't manage to spot is the amount of times Zokora sees the ball and doesn't give it away in comparison to any other fucker we have.

When Ramos first arrived everybody had Zokora down as first to be given a prolonged run in the reserves. At the time I pointed out that it may surprise some that more than any other CM we have Zokora may be closest to what Ramos actually values. Energy, discipline and the ability to retain possession.

You may or may not remember me several times saying that people need to see beyond the eye catching.

It is players like Zokora that have helped us play better football than at any time in the last 15-20 years against opposition that is vastly improved.

Of course we can improve on Zokora but it wil take a lot more money than he cost. (Carrick 18 mil ???).

 

[SpurSince57]

I've actually found myself defending Zokora in recent weeks, something I never thought I'd find myself doing. I still find it annoying that he took a season-and-a-half to really start showing his worth, but I just don't understand how people can ask why Ramos plays him. Especially when they ask (as some numpty did the other week) why he keeps heading off to one wing or another. It's because it's part of his job as DM to cover for the FBs when they go forward, you mug! Makelele, Mascherano and Poulsen (to name but three) do it all the time.

Coupled with a partner who can tackle and pass the ball accurately to the wingers or forwards, he could become a mainstay. I read a great comment on Jenas in the Telegraph the other week: 'Can play a nice tune, but often needs someone to carry the piano for him.'

Carrying the piano seems to be what Zoko is doing a lot of the time.

 

[DC_Boy]

DC
Don't be fucking silly mate.

Fabregas came from Barca's youth team
Bendtner is Danish (from a club in Copenhagan)
Traore is French (previously with Monaco)
Diaby is French (from PSG)
Clichey is French (from Cannes)
Addebayor is Togolise (from Monaco)

Of Arsenal's current squad only Hoyte and Walcot are English and Walcot came from the same eplace we got Bale (who I forgot to mention). Southampton.

What talent spotting has come down to is a battle for who can "nick" the best talent from around the globe. Arsenal are amongst the best in europe at it. We are trying to catch up.

now you're being fucking silly BC - shame cos I've agreed with you of late - but it's ignore time now I'm afraid

 

[rich75]

to be honest i think BC has a point, the standout player in arsenal side, ie fabregas, was poached , dubiously to say the least, from barcelona using various bits of contract law to do so.. it's not as if no-one else had noticed his talent , it was just for whatever reason arsenal, probably due to recentl winning the league and having Henry in his prime were able to poach him.. its not quite the same as standing on hackney marshes on a wet sunday in january and spotting the next gazza

 

[pagevee]

I think we've got a little sidetracked anyway, for the original article wasn't really talking about youngsters. It's how detailed stats—far more detailed than those that are publicly available—can identify strengths and weaknesses that can be overlooked by even the most experienced scouts, let alone Joe Bloke watching in the stands or on the TV.

I agree, I just got back to this thread and barely recognized it. I also agree with your opinions on the value of Chimbs and Zokora. I just can't take Chimbs attitude of late and the lack of a final ball when in scoring position by Zokopops. I was petrified when he walked up for the PK against PSV. And then he scored and Chimbs missed who I thought would score easy. Ironic isn't it.