The Gio Debate

[spurs_viola]

....

He needs to play in a central position or in an advanced position on the right, playing him on the right of a 442 is a waste of time (Young Boys).

The stupid line up/formation or lack there of did him and others no favours last night and taking him off at HT was silly. He needs minutes/games, he should have stuck with him, changed his starting position and played someone in midfield that is capable of retaining possession and getting him the ball in good positions.

This is one of the obvious points overlooked by many. Pre-season and for Mexico he has played in a team with regular first team players in the position of a withdrawn forward or on the advanced right in a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 formation, and it worked well for the team, with GDS praised as one of the most influential players in Spurs team v Benfica and Fiorentina (the last 2 pre-season matches where we had strong midfield with Huddlestone and Modric). What is the point then to put him as a RW in 4-4-2 in both matches he played so far, both times in a team lacking balance and control in the middle?

.....

I also think that one thing a lot of people don't take into consideration is the lack of confidence that he may feel Harry has in him. Confidence can make a huge difference to how you play and the reason he just lays it off easy is probably because he doesn't want to give the ball away or do the wrong thing. He knows he'll probably not get another chance for weeks/months when he does get the odd opportunity. Has he ever started 2 competitive games in a row for Harry? There has been many players that have had poor game after poor game but still continue to start.

I'm in no way excusing his performance yesterday which was poor but if it's on your mind all the time that the coach has no faith in you then I guess it's not so easy. Along with the fact that the whole team looked clueless he can't really be singled out as the worst performer on the night yesterday. Harry is comfortable playing a 4-4-2 and not much tactical tinkering is needed to just play a 4-4-1-1 as it's just replacing a striker for vdv and he does the rest.

....

Great point and again, should be a fairly obvious one, but mostly overlooked again. Examples of Bentley in 2008-09 season, Keane in 2009, Crouch between November and February last year are the ones where players were in poor form and yet played game after game. Yet a single less than impressive performance for someone like GDS would almost certainly mean being dropped for a long period again.
This does affect a player, especially a 21 yr old not yet established in EPL - when he is constantly told to keep the ball and drop back, and knows a bad mistake or two will very likely lead to him being taken off or dropped next time. You just cannot get the best out of an attacking player like that, when he is afraid to go on his usual direct runs at the defence - something that excites his fans and objective observers, something the defenders hate facing and something we have been lacking sorely now that Lennon is so reluctant/hesitant about it too.

....

Both games he's played in this season have been AWFUL team performances with makeshift teams.

Exactly. I touched on this above already, but really, it is staggering how this young player without any regular football for Spurs is singled out for such openly hostile treatment in the games where not a single other player played well - and those games/teams included established, experienced players like Modric, Palacios, Lennon, Corluka, BAE, Pavlyuchenko, Keane...Yet some people insist on rounding up someone like Giovani because he is such an easy target with people expecting him to change the course of the match on his own and when he doesn't they throw all kind of abuse at him?

 

[kaz Hirai]

This is one of the obvious points overlooked by many. Pre-season and for Mexico he has played in a team with regular first team players in the position of a withdrawn forward or on the advanced right in a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 formation, and it worked well for the team, with GDS praised as one of the most influential players in Spurs team v Benfica and Fiorentina (the last 2 pre-season matches where we had strong midfield with Huddlestone and Modric). What is the point then to put him as a RW in 4-4-2 in both matches he played so far, both times in a team lacking balance and control in the middle?



Great point and again, should be a fairly obvious one, but mostly overlooked again. Examples of Bentley in 2008-09 season, Keane in 2009, Crouch between November and February last year are the ones where players were not in poor form and yet played game after game. Yet a single less than impressive performance for someone like GDS would almost certainly mean being dropped for a long period again.
This does affect a player, especially a 21 yr old not yet established in EPL - when he is constantly told to keep the ball and drop back, and knows a bad mistake or two will very likely lead to him being taken off or dropped next time. You just cannot get the best out of an attacking player like that, when he is afraid to go on his usual direct runs at the defence - something that excites his fans and objective observers, something the defenders hate facing and something we have been lacking sorely now that Lennon is so reluctant/hesitant about it too.



Exactly. I touched on this above already, but really, it is staggering how this young player without any regular football for Spurs is singled out for such openly hostile treatment in the games where not a single other player played well - and those games/teams included established, experienced players like Modric, Palacios, Lennon, Corluka, BAE, Pavlyuchenko, Keane...Yet some people insist on rounding up someone like Giovani because he is such an easy target with people expecting him to change the course of the match on his own and when he doesn't they throw all kind of abuse at him?

indeed i dont understand the hate towards the 21 year old myself, at least with the tiresome keane/JJ/Pav threads those 3 have tons of games under their belts :shrug:

 

[nidge]

This is one of the obvious points overlooked by many. Pre-season and for Mexico he has played in a team with regular first team players in the position of a withdrawn forward or on the advanced right in a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 formation, and it worked well for the team, with GDS praised as one of the most influential players in Spurs team v Benfica and Fiorentina (the last 2 pre-season matches where we had strong midfield with Huddlestone and Modric). What is the point then to put him as a RW in 4-4-2 in both matches he played so far, both times in a team lacking balance and control in the middle?

You are completely missing the point. GDS may look best in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation but when Tottenham Hotspur (the team being far more important than one player) play at our best it is as a 4-4-2 as seen in the performance towards the end of last season. GDS has to fit into our system and not the other way round. So unless Dos Santos can play successfully and prove to do a better job than the players currently ahead of him in the teams formation he won't get games and we should therefore look to sell him.

Great point and again, should be a fairly obvious one, but mostly overlooked again. Examples of Bentley in 2008-09 season, Keane in 2009, Crouch between November and February last year are the ones where players were not in poor form and yet played game after game. Yet a single less than impressive performance for someone like GDS would almost certainly mean being dropped for a long period again.

That makes no sense at all to me. :shrug:

Exactly. I touched on this above already, but really, it is staggering how this young player without any regular football for Spurs is singled out for such openly hostile treatment in the games where not a single other player played well - and those games/teams included established, experienced players like Modric, Palacios, Lennon, Corluka, BAE, Pavlyuchenko, Keane...Yet some people insist on rounding up someone like Giovani because he is such an easy target with people expecting him to change the course of the match on his own and when he doesn't they throw all kind of abuse at him?

Really what are you on? No really! Nearly every player in the spurs squad has had abuse written about them on this forum. To make it seem like Dos Santos is the only one to receive such criticism is just plain wrong.

 

[fortworthspur]

I hate to pile on, but my patience with Gio is running out, too. He looked awful Tuesday. He lost every challenge I saw - though I missed a lot of the second half. He seemed completely unable to retain possession for even the briefest time. He should get more chances this Fall with our current striker situation, and if he doesnt impress I wouldnt mind shipping him out in January at all.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

This is one of the obvious points overlooked by many. Pre-season and for Mexico he has played in a team with regular first team players in the position of a withdrawn forward or on the advanced right in a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 formation, and it worked well for the team, with GDS praised as one of the most influential players in Spurs team v Benfica and Fiorentina (the last 2 pre-season matches where we had strong midfield with Huddlestone and Modric). What is the point then to put him as a RW in 4-4-2 in both matches he played so far, both times in a team lacking balance and control in the middle?

Yet again changing things that have happened just to suit your cause. If you actually think that Giovani was playing RM in a 442 on Tuesday your knowledge of the game of football is clearly as good as you make it out to be. If Giovani was the RM, which of the other players was playing as the 'striker' alongside Pavlyuchenko? Palacios, or Bentley?

Great point and again, should be a fairly obvious one, but mostly overlooked again. Examples of Bentley in 2008-09 season, Keane in 2009, Crouch between November and February last year are the ones where players were not in poor form and yet played game after game. Yet a single less than impressive performance for someone like GDS would almost certainly mean being dropped for a long period again.

This is a thread about Giovani, why are you bringing up Bentley from 2008/9, Keane and Crouch?

This does affect a player, especially a 21 yr old not yet established in EPL - when he is constantly told to keep the ball and drop back, and knows a bad mistake or two will very likely lead to him being taken off or dropped next time. You just cannot get the best out of an attacking player like that, when he is afraid to go on his usual direct runs at the defence - something that excites his fans and objective observers, something the defenders hate facing and something we have been lacking sorely now that Lennon is so reluctant/hesitant about it too.

So that is Giovani's excuse in your eyes for playing poorly for a manager who has no confidence in him. What then is his excuse for playing poorly for Galatasary when he has his mentor who brought him into the Barca side as his manager?

Exactly. I touched on this above already, but really, it is staggering how this young player without any regular football for Spurs is singled out for such openly hostile treatment in the games where not a single other player played well - and those games/teams included established, experienced players like Modric, Palacios, Lennon, Corluka, BAE, Pavlyuchenko, Keane...Yet some people insist on rounding up someone like Giovani because he is such an easy target with people expecting him to change the course of the match on his own and when he doesn't they throw all kind of abuse at him?

Is that some kind of joke? The 'abuse' that Giovani has had 'thrown at him' is no worse than the comments you have made about Bentley in this very thread. But that probably doesn't count.

You really are a special case viola.

 

[spurs_viola]

You are completely missing the point. GDS may look best in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation but when Tottenham Hotspur (the team being far more important than one player) play at our best it is as a 4-4-2 as seen in the performance towards the end of last season. GDS has to fit into our system and not the other way round. So unless Dos Santos can play successfully and prove to do a better job than the players currently ahead of him in the teams formation he won't get games and we should therefore look to sell him.



([FONT=&quot](Referring to the point about Bentley in 2008, Keane in 2009 and Crouch between Nov 2009 - Feb 2010) [/FONT]
That makes no sense at all to me. :shrug:

.....

I was referring to the pre-season games against strong teams, where we played close to our best line-ups in 4-4-1-1 / 4-3-3/4-5-1 formations and where GDS played so well that even Harry acknowledged his contribution.

To then play a different formation and play this player in a different position where he is not as effective in the games where the WHOLE team was struggling badly was always likely to end unfavourably for the team and the player.
I realize that pre-season and the actual season are not the same thing, but really, how else can a player like Giovani show that he is a better player now and contributes much more to the team now, if he has a very good pre-season only to be either dropped or played out of position in an unbalanced team?

(Referring to the point about Bentley in 2008, Keane in 2009 and Crouch between Nov 2009 - Feb 2010):


Ah, sorry, left "not" by mistake there. Meant to say "when they were in poor form".

 

[Coyboy]

Except Crouch was not in poor form from Nov-Feb.

 

[sim0n]

Too light weight for premiership football. Defo not a winger! I can only see him playing in a free role behind the striker. Either way i won't be shocked if he's sold in Jan!

Light weight and not really willing to work hard on the pitch to overcome this...

he'll look good in a Porto jersey...

 

[SpurSince57]

I was referring to the pre-season games against strong teams, where we played close to our best line-ups in 4-4-1-1 / 4-3-3/4-5-1 formations and where GDS played so well that even Harry acknowledged his contribution.

To then play a different formation and play this player in a different position where he is not as effective in the games where the WHOLE team was struggling badly was always likely to end unfavourably for the team and the player.
I realize that pre-season and the actual season are not the same thing, but really, how else can a player like Giovani show that he is a better player now and contributes much more to the team now, if he has a very good pre-season only to be either dropped or played out of position in an unbalanced team?

No, they're not. If they were, we'd have been at or near the top of the table two years ago, not propping it up, wouldn't we?

Unfair as it may seem, if you want to establish yourself as a regular member of the match-day 18 in a squad as strong as ours has become (let alone a nailed-on starter), you've got to grab the few opportunities that come your way with both hands. Lennon did so five years ago, and hasn't looked back. Regulars going through a bad patch get cut more slack because they've proved themselves in the past; Keane, for example, couldn't buy a goal in the first third of 2006-2007 (nor could Defoe and Berbatov, for that matter), got injured and returned in brilliant form.

We keep getting this argument that he played for Barcelona, that he's a regular in the Mexican team, that he did really well at Ipswich, but so what? You might as well say, 'Bentley was the nuts at Blackburn.' For Spurs, dos Santos has shown very little to suggest that he deserves a starting place, certainly not ahead of VdV, Modric, Kranjcar, or Lennon.

Flatters kicked off this thread by asking a perfectly legitimate question: why does dos Santos receive all this adulation when he's done almost nothing to deserve it? None of his fan club has answered that satisfactorily.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But it's not adulation. It's a fairly rational questioning of whether - what appears to be a pretty talented kid, with good work ethic as well - has actually been given the same opportunity as the likes of Lennon.

I don't think I've read anyone go over the top in their estimation of GDS, and personally I wouldn't pick him in my first choice 11 at the moment (or Lennon) as I'd play 4231 with Modric, Bale & VDV as my preferred 3.

But we have all seen what he is capable of, and we have all heard Redknapp speak about him. Clearly this is a personality clash that is never going solve itself.

You say he didn't grab his chance but actually on various occasions he did what would generally have been considered more than enough if other players "chances" were a yardstick.

Against Shaktar away he was (by a thin majority consensus) the best outfield player on a tough night against a very good side. In the home leg he scored a cracking goal.

You could easily have said that was pretty good for start number 1 & 2 under Redknapp couldn't you ?

Following season he plays away in the CC and was outstanding. Did this get him any reward or even the classification of "taken his chance" ? Seems not.

I don't think any of us think he has earned a regular starting birth given that we have now also added VDV as well, but I think for most of us we have seen a genuine talent (not stratospheric just pretty good) too promising to discard out of hand - unlike many that warrant it.

The pre match interview where GDS was mentioned, pretty much said it all. I can't see this clash ever resolving itself. I don't think GDS is ever going to be a world beater but I think he could be a decent footballer for a decent side who get the best out of him.

 

[SpurSince57]

No, it's not rational. Why aren't people asking why Rose—who's done a fuck of a sight more for Spurs in far fewer appearances—doesn't get a chance? Why has he gone out on loan?

Find the 'narrow consensus' that says he was our best player in Donetsk—and even if he was, it doesn't say a great deal, does it? He scored a cracking goal against them at the Lane, but did absolutely fuck all else, as you'd have observed if you'd been there. He was 'outstanding' against lower league opposition in the CC; what's he done against any side that can be regarded as quality? A nice little cameo against City, that's what.

 

[NEVILLEB]

No, it's not rational. Why aren't people asking why Rose—who's done a fuck of a sight more for Spurs in far fewer appearances—doesn't get a chance? Why has he gone out on loan?

Find the 'narrow consensus' that says he was our best player in Donetsk—and even if he was, it doesn't say a great deal, does it? He scored a cracking goal against them at the Lane, but did absolutely fuck all else, as you'd have observed if you'd been there. He was 'outstanding' against lower league opposition in the CC; what's he done against any side that can be regarded as quality? A nice little cameo against City, that's what.

tut tut

Hypocrite

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm at a loss here. Are you trying to appear intelligent? Or witty? If so, give up now.

 

[phil]

But it's not adulation. It's a fairly rational questioning of whether - what appears to be a pretty talented kid, with good work ethic as well - has actually been given the same opportunity as the likes of Lennon.

I don't think I've read anyone go over the top in their estimation of GDS, and personally I wouldn't pick him in my first choice 11 at the moment (or Lennon) as I'd play 4231 with Modric, Bale & VDV as my preferred 3.

But we have all seen what he is capable of, and we have all heard Redknapp speak about him. Clearly this is a personality clash that is never going solve itself.

You say he didn't grab his chance but actually on various occasions he did what would generally have been considered more than enough if other players "chances" were a yardstick.

Against Shaktar away he was (by a thin majority consensus) the best outfield player on a tough night against a very good side. In the home leg he scored a cracking goal.

You could easily have said that was pretty good for start number 1 & 2 under Redknapp couldn't you ?

Following season he plays away in the CC and was outstanding. Did this get him any reward or even the classification of "taken his chance" ? Seems not.

I don't think any of us think he has earned a regular starting birth given that we have now also added VDV as well, but I think for most of us we have seen a genuine talent (not stratospheric just pretty good) too promising to discard out of hand - unlike many that warrant it.

The pre match interview where GDS was mentioned, pretty much said it all. I can't see this clash ever resolving itself. I don't think GDS is ever going to be a world beater but I think he could be a decent footballer for a decent side who get the best out of him.

I was wondering when you would join the debate B-C.

It may not be adulation now, but that hasn't always been the case. I remember a long post by you this time last season in praise of Gio and advocating that he should replace Lennon. This at a time when we were near the top of the league and Lennon was in the form of his life. To be fair to you, you did seem to change your mind later in the season and suggest, as you do now, that Gio would not be in your first XI.

I doubt if there is a 'personality clash' between Harry and Gio, but even if there were don't you think that this might be due to Gio's party-going lifestyle. Both Roy Keane and Harry have publicly stated that Gio has turned up late for training. As a manager, I think that would piss me off too. In an interview last season, Harry said that he was so concerned about Gio's attitude that he had spoken to his father about it.

You say that Gio has a good work ethic even though public comments from his managers and a lot of itk suggest the contrary. His involvement in the recent party-going incident, and subsequent fine, when on international duty with Mexico point to the fact that he has not changed his lifestyle.

When a young player is trying to break into the team, he has to make the most of limited opportunities. IMO Gio has singularly failed to do this. Danny Rose has had far more impact from fewer opportunities and yet doesn't get the same adulation on this forum.

You mentioned his cracking goal against Shaktar but omitted to state that he was the worst player on the pitch that night. His best performances in a Spurs shirt have come when playing against lower league opposition in the Carling Cup. By all accounts, he was impressive when loaned to Ipswich but failed at Galatasaray. Just perhaps, the Championship may be his level as it seems to be for Taarabt.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No, it's not rational. Why aren't people asking why Rose—who's done a fuck of a sight more for Spurs in far fewer appearances—doesn't get a chance? Why has he gone out on loan?

Find the 'narrow consensus' that says he was our best player in Donetsk—and even if he was, it doesn't say a great deal, does it? He scored a cracking goal against them at the Lane, but did absolutely fuck all else, as you'd have observed if you'd been there. He was 'outstanding' against lower league opposition in the CC; what's he done against any side that can be regarded as quality? A nice little cameo against City, that's what.

I was there and he didn't do much else of note, which is why I only mentioned the goal.

You say what's he done against opposition of note but what chances has he had against opposition of note. Shaktar went on to win the UEFA Cup didn't they (or finish runner up), I'd say that was a team of note.

Apart from that I can't think of 90 minutes he's been given in a full strength spurs side against top level opposition at WHL since Redknapp has been in charge.

I think the other thing he has over Rose is that he has a lot more top level experience at Mexico, Galatasary, Barca etc that people can judge him on.

What have any of us seen of Rose to form the same level of opinion ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I was wondering when you would join the debate B-C.

It may not be adulation now, but that hasn't always been the case. I remember a long post by you this time last season in praise of Gio and advocating that he should replace Lennon. This at a time when we were near the top of the league and Lennon was in the form of his life. To be fair to you, you did seem to change your mind later in the season and suggest, as you do now, that Gio would not be in your first XI.

I doubt if there is a 'personality clash' between Harry and Gio, but even if there were don't you think that this might be due to Gio's party-going lifestyle. Both Roy Keane and Harry have publicly stated that Gio has turned up late for training. As a manager, I think that would piss me off too. In an interview last season, Harry said that he was so concerned about Gio's attitude that he had spoken to his father about it.

You say that Gio has a good work ethic even though public comments from his managers and a lot of itk suggest the contrary. His involvement in the recent party-going incident, and subsequent fine, when on international duty with Mexico point to the fact that he has not changed his lifestyle.

When a young player is trying to break into the team, he has to make the most of limited opportunities. IMO Gio has singularly failed to do this. Danny Rose has had far more impact from fewer opportunities and yet doesn't get the same adulation on this forum.

You mentioned his cracking goal against Shaktar but omitted to state that he was the worst player on the pitch that night. His best performances in a Spurs shirt have come when playing against lower league opposition in the Carling Cup. By all accounts, he was impressive when loaned to Ipswich but failed at Galatasaray. Just perhaps, the Championship may be his level as it seems to be for Taarabt.

Why don't you actually post the quote where I allegedly suggested that GDS should from here on in and for ever replace Lennon in our team.

I'm pretty sure whatever I said it wasn't quite like that was it. I might have said I think GDS has the potential to be more use than lennon or based on current form I'd like to see GDS given a game instead of Lennon. But that is not same as you are implying to make yourself look clever is it.

Why don't you post the most outrageous claim I have made about GDS, let's see how ridiculous it is.

And he wasn't the worst player against Shaktar at home, that's just bollocks. No-one stood out that night - a night when a slightly makeshift side was put out - against one of the best sides in the tournament.

 

[spurs_viola]

Why don't you actually post the quote where I allegedly suggested that GDS should from here on in and for ever replace Lennon in our team.

I'm pretty sure whatever I said it wasn't quite like that was it. I might have said I think GDS has the potential to be more use than lennon or based on current form I'd like to see GDS given a game instead of Lennon. But that is not same as you are implying to make yourself look clever is it.

Why don't you post the most outrageous claim I have made about GDS, let's see how ridiculous it is.

And he wasn't the worst player against Shaktar at home, that's just bollocks. No-one stood out that night - a night when a slightly makeshift side was put out - against one of the best sides in the tournament.

The problem with phil and others like him is that they seem to have this irrational hatred of someone like Giovani, whom it seems they decided to dislike from the beginning for his exotic name, the "hype" and the appreciation from others that they just cannot live with. The way they gleefully latch on to the rumours and snippets about his off-the-field issues as some kind of proof of their point is laughable, like the ridiculously exaggerrated furore about the late night gathering of the WHOLE Mexico team after the friendly match where GDS was among 13 other players (many of whom were much more senior, incl the captain Marquez) and received one of the smallest fines, suggesting he was guilty of just being there with others.

phil constantly peddles the cliche about GDS not working hard enough, not doing much etc - instead of opening his mind and seeing the much improved work ethics this year. Even in the 45 min on Tuesday he tracked back and won the ball at least several times from the start (dispossessing Wilshere in our half to stop the attack in the first few minutes and dispossessing Vela in the last couple of minutes with good strength and persistence, winning a free kick) - much more than the a lot more experienced Bentley for example, whom same people are quite ready to excuse.

 

[mano-obe]

I don't know what I make of him. Used to get excited when Ramos used brang him on around the 80th minute but he done sod all every time.

Only see him do one decent thing for Spurs and that was score against Donetsk with a nice goal

I remember Henry saying Dos Santos could be one of the best in the world, I know how much he dislikes Spurs so I'm starting to think he was on the wind up and knew something we didn't

 

[Spurs_Bear]

But it's not adulation. It's a fairly rational questioning of whether - what appears to be a pretty talented kid, with good work ethic as well - has actually been given the same opportunity as the likes of Lennon.

I don't think I've read anyone go over the top in their estimation of GDS, and personally I wouldn't pick him in my first choice 11 at the moment (or Lennon) as I'd play 4231 with Modric, Bale & VDV as my preferred 3.

But we have all seen what he is capable of, and we have all heard Redknapp speak about him. Clearly this is a personality clash that is never going solve itself.

You say he didn't grab his chance but actually on various occasions he did what would generally have been considered more than enough if other players "chances" were a yardstick.

Against Shaktar away he was (by a thin majority consensus) the best outfield player on a tough night against a very good side. In the home leg he scored a cracking goal.

You could easily have said that was pretty good for start number 1 & 2 under Redknapp couldn't you ?

Following season he plays away in the CC and was outstanding. Did this get him any reward or even the classification of "taken his chance" ? Seems not.

I don't think any of us think he has earned a regular starting birth given that we have now also added VDV as well, but I think for most of us we have seen a genuine talent (not stratospheric just pretty good) too promising to discard out of hand - unlike many that warrant it.

The pre match interview where GDS was mentioned, pretty much said it all. I can't see this clash ever resolving itself. I don't think GDS is ever going to be a world beater but I think he could be a decent footballer for a decent side who get the best out of him.

You're right it's not adulation, in the same sense that it's not 'hatred' that viola keeps banging on about, but then he is a special case.

The one thing is though BC, you more than anyone on this site demand the absolute perfect performances from the players and management on a week to week basis. You're constant comments and reports regarding Huddlestone are an example of this, so how in the name of god can you EVER describe one of Giovani's performances for us as 'outstanding'.....?

The mind boggles, the game you are talking about must be Doncaster away in the CC, where GDS did in fact play reasonably well? But 'outstanding', come off it, he wasn't even as good as Bentley that night!

As I said before it all boils down to how you judge what 'excelling' or 'shown us what he is capable of' actually means. For a forward player who was let go by Barcelona for a pittance, has done nothing substantial for us in the limited appearances he has had so far, didn't set the Championship alight, was poor for Galatasary and came away from the World Cup apparently smelling of roses with 0 goals and 0 assists, it would appear the term for that wouldn't come anywhere near 'excelling' would it?

Viola banging on yet again about people 'hating' Giovani and having made their mind up about him and refusing to change their opinion, is no different to the select few like yourself, that are still holding on with every shred that you can that he is going to turn into some kind of superstar and is being unfairly treated, who wont change their opinion.

 

[SpurSince57]

I was there and he didn't do much else of note, which is why I only mentioned the goal.

You say what's he done against opposition of note but what chances has he had against opposition of note. Shaktar went on to win the UEFA Cup didn't they (or finish runner up), I'd say that was a team of note.

Apart from that I can't think of 90 minutes he's been given in a full strength spurs side against top level opposition at WHL since Redknapp has been in charge.

I think the other thing he has over Rose is that he has a lot more top level experience at Mexico, Galatasary, Barca etc that people can judge him on.

What have any of us seen of Rose to form the same level of opinion ?

But why should he be given a chance on the basis of what he's done elsewhere?