The great Pav v Crouch debate

[double0]

Pavluychenko just isn't strong enough, strange thing to say about a Russian (stereotyped view, I do apologies). Fantastic super sub mind you.

Crouch hasn't got the legs nor strength but is a better target man and a decent footballer who you can play off.

 

[daveedginola]

Crouch is shit,whilst Pav isnt exactly setting the prem on fire (hard to do when your manager doesnt understand you ,ahem) he is a "less shit" player than crouch,who is very shit.

Someone said harry is "sick of the translator" re pav.cant we just get a better translator then ?

oh the irony

 

[sloth]

Even though I acknowledged Pavs stats were better you mean? Just that there isn't a great deal of difference, which there isn't.

Did you read what I posted? Crouch has made less assists per minute in the last two years than Pav has scored goals.

That is a massive difference.

Pav has personally scored goals. Crouch has created opportunities which someone else had to score. But he's created fewer opportunities per minute than Pav has actually scored.

There's is no way on earth you can say that's roughly the same.

But I also said that Crouch brings more in general play. Something that stats dont show of course, in which case you have to go by what you see in a game. Anyone can see Crouch puts a lot more and gets more involved than Pav.

I don't think he brings anything more in general play. I simply don't agree with that premise.

But even if I did, it would be irrelevant. It's like saying this keeper lets in goals but his distribution's good. Or this defender can't tackle for shit but he's good at taking free-kicks.

You can't be a striker but shit at setting up and scoring goals.

As for the bullshit about Harry's favourites, its simply not true. He opted for Pav and Defoe on a number of occassions last season upon Defoes return from injury. Defoe got injured again just befoe VDV came in, so we went with VDV in off Crouch. The 2 have linked up well together and Crouch has set a few up for VDV as a result. That is why Harry stuck by it for a bit.

Pav has played half as much as Crouch, but his goals per minute are better than Crouch's assists and goals per minute combined. For every goal Crouch sets up Pav scores more. You don't need Crouch setting up goals if he sets up fewer goals in his time on the pitch than Pav scores in the equivalent. VdV and whoever will still score goals, the team would just have that many more goals if Pav played instead of Crouch. Simple as.

And if it's not about Harry's favourites then he's blind (which he isn't), how can you prefer a man who contributes fewer goals through assists and goals than another on goals alone. Games are won by the team which scores the most goals. The Pav scores more per minute than Crouch scores and sets up.

Pav has been tried several times up top with VDV too, and was opted ahead of Crouch when Defoe got suspended. He didn't do a damn thing in either of the 2 games he played. So what is Harry to do? Keep picking him when he brings nothing to the table just in hope that he comes up with another goal out of nowhere?

In the minutes he's played he's brought twice as much to the table as Crouch has. You persist with the player who performs the best.

At least with Crouch, when he isn't scoring or setting up goals he's doing something. The same can't be said of Pav. He's a passenger too often. That's his biggest problem, he looks uninterested a lot of the time. You will never see Pav make a contribution like Crouch did at Villa for example.

I agree Pav is not what you'd call your ideal forward. He's weak and a bit limp. He's still a far, far more effective player than Crouch.

It's not that we're choosing between a fantastic player and a mediocre one, we're choosing between a quite good player and an average one. Pav is simply better than Crouch in the Premier League.

 

[kaz Hirai]

crouch has his uses, primarily as a last ditch effort. kind of like putting a centre back up front in the last 10 minutes to cause havoc and maybe get a knockdown assist.
But he certainly is no forward, in fact he is the worse spurs forward when it comes to scoring i have seen, perhaps only postiga matches him in ineptness

Pav seems like a fairly decent forward, on the level of defoe, spells of form, and spells of shite, if he started all 38 prem games i would bet he would end on something like 15 league goals. not great but better than crouch who would get no higher than 8

I think pav is comfortably better than crouch even with the latter's ugly assists, but then european defenders do seem to have a hard time with crouch so he's good in that respect also:think:, but saying that due to his total lack of quality in the league we probably wont be worrying about missing his threat in the champions leagues next season because we wont be in it! :lol:

so my conclusion...get rid of both of them

 

[stemark44]

Shoot both of them!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sloth

If it was about pure goals/assists ratio we might as well have kept Bent and kept losing whilst his goal tally kept rising.

It is just not that simple regards strikers. They are not just there to score anymore. Drogba, Berbatov, Van Percy, Torres, etc etc


Crouch plays purely for the team, his contribution is purely selfless. To boost his goal tally he would need a much better service in terms of crosses than he's been getting from Lennon and Bale. In the last thre games alone I've watched the pair them wasted about 10 chances per game to put in a decent cross.He's hardly had a fair deal on that score has he. He's never going to score the type of goals that nippy poachers are supposed to score is he, that is not his job, never has been.

What also gets ignored is the amount of ball he sees, compared to Pav (who is the closest of our other three recognised strikers - Pav, Keane, Defoe)

He sees the ball every 2.4 minutes, Pav 3.6. Accurate passes every 3.9, Pav 4.9.

That averages out at 25 accurate passes a game to Pav's 18.

That's more than Lennon and Bale make most games. More than three times Defoe's average. That's a pretty decent contribution to the team dynamic, retaining the ball in the opponents half/third etc. It's coming back at our defence about a third more when Pav plays and twice/three times as much when Defoe plays.

I know we must improve on all of them, and personally I would get rid of both Keane and Defoe before Pav, but none of them offer what Crouch offers the team, and players that offer what he offers to the team and score/assist 20 goals a season are going for about 30mil.

 

[Mr Pink]

Sloth

If it was about pure goals/assists ratio we might as well have kept Bent and kept losing whilst his goal tally kept rising.

It is just not that simple regards strikers. They are not just there to score anymore. Drogba, Berbatov, Van Percy, Torres, etc etc


Crouch plays purely for the team, his contribution is purely selfless. To boost his goal tally he would need a much better service in terms of crosses than he's been getting from Lennon and Bale. In the last thre games alone I've watched the pair them wasted about 10 chances per game to put in a decent cross.He's hardly had a fair deal on that score has he. He's never going to score the type of goals that nippy poachers are supposed to score is he, that is not his job, never has been.

What also gets ignored is the amount of ball he sees, compared to Pav (who is the closest of our other three recognised strikers - Pav, Keane, Defoe)

He sees the ball every 2.4 minutes, Pav 3.6. Accurate passes every 3.9, Pav 4.9.

That averages out at 25 accurate passes a game to Pav's 18.

That's more than Lennon and Bale make most games. More than three times Defoe's average. That's a pretty decent contribution to the team dynamic, retaining the ball in the opponents half/third etc. It's coming back at our defence about a third more when Pav plays and twice/three times as much when Defoe plays.

I know we must improve on all of them, and personally I would get rid of both Keane and Defoe before Pav, but none of them offer what Crouch offers the team, and players that offer what he offers to the team and score/assist 20 goals a season are going for about 30mil.

Thats really the nail on the head anyway.

Pav doesn't score enough goals to justify having such little effect on games, he doesn't offer anywhere near enough in terms of work rate and all round team play.

At one point I thought it was improving slightly - his general levels of effort, but it hasn't been of the epic proportions required for him to be deemed a real productive forward for us.

I am very much in the keep Crouch camp. He offers us something different and is a real team player with a hard working attitude.

 

[Eric_s]

My eyes from watching many games tell me this, Pav scores and link up play well. Crouch does neither. They both have poor games. Crouch looked hard workibng because he is slow and clumsy making it seem like he is trying very hard. Defoe works harder than Crouch.
This English love in really saddens me.

 

[michaelden]

My eyes from watching many games tell me this, Pav scores and link up play well. Crouch does neither. They both have poor games. Crouch looked hard workibng because he is slow and clumsy making it seem like he is trying very hard. Defoe works harder than Crouch.
This English love in really saddens me.

agreed :clap:

 

[not_tenth-again]

I'm with the earlier post that all 4 of our strikers need changing. if not now then certainly in the next 18 months. Whether we like to admit it or not Pav is the 2nd (arguably the best) best striker we have but Harry doesn't see it that way so points get wasted and we'll miss 4th because of it. It's a thankless job being a Spurs supporter sometimes

 

[Kendall]

Pav is the better player, but he's been guff in a 4-4-1-1. Crouch and VDV link better

 

[Spurz]

Both are frustrating to watch.. I cant decide which is more frustrating...
Ok all our strikers are frustrating to watch. Why are we debating about this. IMO, doesnt matter which in our current lot we put in, we will still be cursing under our breath

 

[Azrael]

Pav is the better player, but he's been guff in a 4-4-1-1. Crouch and VDV link better

Link better to achieve what?

 

[ThorntonSpur]

Pav for EPl

Crouch for CL

 

[sloth]

Sloth

If it was about pure goals/assists ratio we might as well have kept Bent and kept losing whilst his goal tally kept rising.

It is just not that simple regards strikers. They are not just there to score anymore. Drogba, Berbatov, Van Percy, Torres, etc etc


Crouch plays purely for the team, his contribution is purely selfless. To boost his goal tally he would need a much better service in terms of crosses than he's been getting from Lennon and Bale. In the last thre games alone I've watched the pair them wasted about 10 chances per game to put in a decent cross.He's hardly had a fair deal on that score has he. He's never going to score the type of goals that nippy poachers are supposed to score is he, that is not his job, never has been.

Pav isn't nippy, but he thrives on the same service Crouch gets. Crouch is shit at scoring goals.

Which wouldn't matter if he was good at creating them, but he's shit at that too.

His assist rate is poor.

He sets up a goal once every 404 minutes in the Premier League. That's an assist once every four and a half games. Pathetic

Compare that even to the out and out strikers in the other top teams and you see how poor it is.

In order it goes like this

Last 3 years

Pos / Player / Mins per assist
001 /V. Persie / 185
002 / D. Drogba / 295
003 / W. Rooney / 315
004 / P. Crouch / 405
005 / C. Tevez / 435
006 / F. Torres / 584

N.b. this is just the six players I've looked at, it's not the order for the entire Premier League.

But that's just their assist records, remember these are also expected to be their clubs primary goal scorers. When we compare goal scoring records we see:

Pos / Player / Mins per goal
001 /F. Torres / 128
002 / D. Drogba / 140
003 / W. Rooney / 149
004 / V. Persie / 157
005 / C. Tevez / 159
006 / P. Crouch / 362

Crouch is pants at scoring goals and not too hot setting them up either. So what exactly does he do? Well you say...

What also gets ignored is the amount of ball he sees, compared to Pav (who is the closest of our other three recognised strikers - Pav, Keane, Defoe)

He sees the ball every 2.4 minutes, Pav 3.6. Accurate passes every 3.9, Pav 4.9.

That averages out at 25 accurate passes a game to Pav's 18.

That's more than Lennon and Bale make most games. More than three times Defoe's average. That's a pretty decent contribution to the team dynamic, retaining the ball in the opponents half/third etc. It's coming back at our defence about a third more when Pav plays and twice/three times as much when Defoe plays.

If the ball comes within a couple of feet of him he's usually quite good at retaining possession and laying it off to someone. But it has to come right at him, he's the slowest player I've ever seen over 5 yards, his skinny legs don't generate the thrust and he gets beaten to every ball which isn't exactly to him.

The possession he does have is rarely progressive either, imo, he can only lay it off in the direction he's facing by which time the opposition have usually have had a chance to stream back goal side.

He can't run the channels because he's too slow.

All of which is immaterial tbh, because a striker who can't score, or assist, is slow, can't head, can't tackle, is not creative, is not strong, is not dynamic, can't shoot with head or foot, but who can lay the occasional ball back or make a useful defensive header is frankly not a striker and has no place in a PL team with pretensions to challenge for honours.

Pav isn't great, but he's a million times better than Peter Crouch.

I know we must improve on all of them, and personally I would get rid of both Keane and Defoe before Pav, but none of them offer what Crouch offers the team, and players that offer what he offers to the team and score/assist 20 goals a season are going for about 30mil.

Crouch might be worth keeping for the CL or as an impact player, but if we can get £12m for him (or even close) we should bite their hands off and reinvest elsewhere in the squad.

I don't think Pav's that hot either tbh, but this thread's about comparing the two and Pav's a million times better than Crouch.

Btw. which site are you using for your player possession stats? I'd like to check them...

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Terrific, sloth. Easily one of my favorite posters on here.

 

[mil1lion]

I think it's unfair to compare stats of Crouch with the likes of Drogba and Rooney etc. All of whom are world class players. Obviously Crouch is not a world class player, far from it. But to suggest Pavlyuchenko is a million times better is a huge exageration. There really isn't a lot in it. Sure, in the final 3rd Pav is more productive as far as end product goes. But that's all he really does. Crouch is a lot more involved in play.

Both players are upgradeable. I stick by what I say about whoever we get in should determine who we sell of the 2. In the next 2 windows i'd like us to replace both of them in whatever order we can. I just dont see the point selling Crouch if we sign someone like Forlan or Suarez. That would leave us with no big man in the squad. I think all the top clubs need an aerial threat up front, and Pav isn't one despite his size.

I'd be happy for us to sell Keane, Pav, Crouch and get 2 in by next season. 1 big man and preferably a versatile striker. I think a big problem we have is we dont have enough variety up front. I agree with Hoowl in his '4 into 1' thread. We need 3 strikers + VDV. They just need to offer us more.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But slothy old son, I didn't argue about his goals assists that much did I ? Just pointed out that if we want his goals tally to improve then our wingers have got to vastly improve their delivery. I still don't think it will make Crouch as prolific as say Drogba, but then we didn't pay 28m for him - so shouldn't expect him to be. Just look at his record in the CL where coincidently Bale has also had by far his best games ? I honestly don't think this is a coincidence.

I think the rest of your post is nonsensical hyperbole, and possibly the worst post of yours I've ever read.

Examples like Liverpool at home or Newcastle away where Crouch winning the ball in the air and directing it to our players directly lead to us getting 3 more points than we would have had otherwise. Villa at home etc etc.

And it's not just about forwards movement, it's also about ball retention and not giving to the opposition for them to move in a forwards direction at us and score. Football doesn't have to be played in one direction to be effective.

I don't think any of our strikers are relatively shit, but I do think Crouch is at least the only one with a set of bollocks. Doesn't immediately make him more valuable, and I think we need to upgrade all of them, but I'd rather watch him not score and play for the team than people like Defoe not score and touch the ball 6 times a game, and the team play even shitter as a result.

Stats here:

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

[michaelden]

And it's not just about forwards movement, it's also about ball retention and not giving to the opposition for them to move in a forwards direction at us and score. Football doesn't have to be played in one direction to be effective.

Stats here:

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

:eh: ... :think: ... um ... but you win by scoring goals or providing assists so in general the direction you want to be going is towards the opposition goal. I say generally but in truth mean always cos if you know a way of scoring a winner that doesn't go towards the opposition goal you'd be enlightening me :razz:

 

[sloth]

I think it's unfair to compare stats of Crouch with the likes of Drogba and Rooney etc. All of whom are world class players. Obviously Crouch is not a world class player, far from it. But to suggest Pavlyuchenko is a million times better is a huge exageration. There really isn't a lot in it. Sure, in the final 3rd Pav is more productive as far as end product goes. But that's all he really does. Crouch is a lot more involved in play.

Crouch Assists come every 404 minutes. That's one assist every 4 and a half games. Hardly prolific.

Pav actually scores once every 200 minutes. Once every 2 and a bit games.

In other words Pav scores twice as frequently as Crouch merely assists.

I'd say that's not even close in terms of quality.

Both players are upgradeable. I stick by what I say about whoever we get in should determine who we sell of the 2. In the next 2 windows i'd like us to replace both of them in whatever order we can. I just dont see the point selling Crouch if we sign someone like Forlan or Suarez. That would leave us with no big man in the squad. I think all the top clubs need an aerial threat up front, and Pav isn't one despite his size.

I agree with this. If we sign Suarez we should sell Pav and keep Crouch. We need a replacement for Crouch far more urgently than replacement for Pav though.

I'd be happy for us to sell Keane, Pav, Crouch and get 2 in by next season. 1 big man and preferably a versatile striker. I think a big problem we have is we dont have enough variety up front. I agree with Hoowl in his '4 into 1' thread. We need 3 strikers + VDV. They just need to offer us more.

Totally agree.

But slothy old son, I didn't argue about his goals assists that much did I ?

Of course you didn't it would have been inconvenient to your argument if you had

Goal scoring and assists are central to a Strikers worth, just as saves and catches are to a keepers, or tackles and interceptions to a defender.

You can't argue that a striker who neither scores or assists is good because of some other peripheral (and in this case very limited) quality that he has.

Just as you can't argue that a keeper who can't save or catch a ball is quite good because his distribution is of a high standard.

And you couldn't argue that a central defender who can't tackle and never makes an interception is good because he's good at scoring from set pieces.

Scoring and assists are virtually all a striker is about, you need to be at least average in these departments to be a top four Prem striker.

Peter Crouch is shit and below average respectively at these things.

For the rest of the stuff you say he's good at, I showed in my post exactly what my opinion of those are and so rather than write it out again can you refer to that previous post?

Just pointed out that if we want his goals tally to improve then our wingers have got to vastly improve their delivery. I still don't think it will make Crouch as prolific as say Drogba, but then we didn't pay 28m for him - so shouldn't expect him to be.

Pav has managed to be twice as effective with exactly the same service. He's not a nippy player, his goals aren't all about pace and movement. They're about finding space and clinical finishing. Crouch can't shoot with either head or foot.

Just look at his record in the CL where coincidently Bale has also had by far his best games ? I honestly don't think this is a coincidence.

He makes an impact in the CL where his sheer height fazes defenders who aren't used to dealing with him.

I think the rest of your post is nonsensical hyperbole, and possibly the worst post of yours I've ever read.

I was trying for a bit of the famous BC bombast tbh :razz:

Examples like Liverpool at home or Newcastle away where Crouch winning the ball in the air and directing it to our players directly lead to us getting 3 more points than we would have had otherwise. Villa at home etc etc.

There's nothing to suggest that Crouch's goals are any more crucial than anyone else's. Or that Crouch has a knack for critical goals.

And it's not just about forwards movement, it's also about ball retention and not giving to the opposition for them to move in a forwards direction at us and score. Football doesn't have to be played in one direction to be effective.

No, but Crouch doesn't even have the option in his locker. He can only play in the direction he's facing. That makes the type of possession you speak about him providing very limited. Needless to say it's much easier to find a team-mate when you're playing backwards not forwards.

I don't think any of our strikers are relatively shit, but I do think Crouch is at least the only one with a set of bollocks.

He doesn't have any bollocks. He's weak. And pretty fucking useless. He as limited value in CL terms and as an impact player, but he should never be anywhere near the starting line-up. Pav should get the nod every single time.

Doesn't immediately make him more valuable, and I think we need to upgrade all of them, but I'd rather watch him not score and play for the team than people like Defoe not score and touch the ball 6 times a game, and the team play even shitter as a result.

I'd like to see him play for the team too. But I don't see him doing that. He puts the effort in, but his effort is spindly and ineffectual for the most part.

Stats here:

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

Cheers