The Harry Effect

[Bus-Conductor]

Ok so I've been ridiculed and even called dillusional for stating that our performances haven't improved under Redknapp, and that we were actually playing better football under Ramos but for varying reasons (virtually whole new team, poor striking options, players gelling and a general lack of the rub) didn't pick up results. Just to prove I'm not completely doolally I did a little bit of stat digging. I know they don't prove or disprove anything conclusively but I just thought for those hailing the miracle of Redknapp, the "infusion of uber confidence" and all that bollocks they would make interesting reading:

If you accept that Redknapp had nothing to do with team selection or tactics for Bolton here are some stats for his last 5 EPL games compared to Ramos's (in Ramos's case I couldn't find Wigan at home so substituted Chelsea away which I think is pretty fair):

---------------Redknapp------------------------Ramos
Possession Av------50%-----------------------58.1%

Shots on target Av---4-------------------------5

Shots off targ av-----4.2----------------------5.8


Even if you include the Bolton game for Redknapp and the Sunderland game for Ramos it reads:


Poss av--------------52.1-----------------------58.7

Shots on targ av-------4.6----------------------5.1

Shots off target-------5.1----------------------6.1


I thought I'd check to see if Redknapp had improved us defensively. Again this is a mere simplistic stat so doesn't conclusively prove anything but using the games above here are the shots on target we have conceded:


-------------------Redknapp----------Ramos

Shots on taget av
Conceded last 6------6.3--------------4.6

Shots on targ av
conceded last 5-------7---------------4.8

(I didn't include shots off target but trust me it was much worse for Redknapp as Arse and Liverpool hit shitoads)

We also need to take into account that Ramos played one his matches with 10 (and then 9) players for 80 minutes and Redknapp has played three of his matches against 10 men for more than a half.

Amazing that these playes with their new super confidence have actually proved less effective at both attacking and defending despite having a numerical advantage in three of the games.

What I cannot deny is that the vital stat of points Redknapp is pissing Ramos. But I think these stats prove that I'm not some dilusional maverick pissing his pants because of some irrational love of Ramos.

The reason I liked Ramos was not because he spoke of undying love of all things spurs or that he spoke a load of (i mean had a brother called) cock.
It was simply because I loved the way Sevilla played football and could see the way he got us playing football. The fact that he instantly identified weaknesses that Jol didn't in three seasons. The fact that he had previously at Sevilla and with us proved that come the big day we wouldn't be allowed to bottle it. I don't believe that under the circumstances listed above (and many other times) that 8 games this season or 12 months in total was enough to change the whole ethos, training, diet, team etc. I didn't think he always got it right and said so.
Unlike some who refuse to accept any mistake made by Jol.

But hey WTF. If another two seasons we were where we were when he took over from Jol then I'd be the first to say adios.

I hope Redkanpp proves me wrong, but I really think theboard panicked under threat of a few tossers demonstrating and a couple wanker players with bigger egos than ability.

 

[General Levy]

yeah but after 30 games will Harry's stats be as bad as Ramos'?

 

[dontcallme]

Very agressive thread there BC. I would agree Ramos was not getting the rub of the green if we went through a short bad period, but we were poor and deservedly getting poor resultd since January.

Since Harry has come in I have seen Lennon, Modric and Bent all performing to their strengths and our results have improved. Ramos didn't seem to be getting the best out of anyone and as a result the team was failing.

 

[mackay59]

obsessive compulsive disorder

 

[mackay59]

sincerely hope you come right though - nasty affliction

 

[oohaahedgar]

You are correct. Those stats prove nothing. We played shit under Ramos(this season), we never looked like scoring in any game. Most of our goals were own goals or bad mistakes
and now we are looking like a decent team. You can justify almost anything if you're prepared to be that blinkered. Some people think Chelsea are a big club!

 

[mackay59]

had it myself a while back

 

[Wiener]

You could reasonably conclude that these type of statistics over such a small number of games are meaningless.

What is clear is that Ramos had an appalling league record since the beginning of the year and that he had started to lose the dressing room, in particular the english players. Given that we are not Arsenal, and have a policy of having a core of english players, this was a serious problem.

I do however agree that we were getting more than our fair share of bad luck under Ramos, and why that happened god only knows. The team under Redknapp on the other hand, has been quite lucky, in particular against Liverpool and by all accounts against the Arse.

I must admit, I was all for giving Ramos more time, probably until the Manure game. Given the dressing room dissent, that may have been disastrous and led to relegation. Having said that I am expecting the Redknapp bubble to burst at some point, but I do expect us to finish mid-table and avoid relegation.

 

[PT]

I am beginning to believe that we let a great manager leave - a manager who did not have the confidence of the changing room and his body language and general demeanour gave no credance to a squad desperate for simple guidance.

The lads had basically had enough of staid instruction and dead pan interaction.

 

[AngerManagement]

Ok so I've been ridiculed and even called dillusional for stating that our performances haven't improved under Redknapp, and that we were actually playing better football under Ramos but for varying reasons (virtually whole new team, poor striking options, players gelling and a general lack of the rub) didn't pick up results. Just to prove I'm not completely doolally I did a little bit of stat digging. I know they don't prove or disprove anything conclusively but I just thought for those hailing the miracle of Redknapp, the "infusion of uber confidence" and all that bollocks they would make interesting reading:

If you accept that Redknapp had nothing to do with team selection or tactics for Bolton here are some stats for his last 5 EPL games compared to Ramos's (in Ramos's case I couldn't find Wigan at home so substituted Chelsea away which I think is pretty fair):

---------------Redknapp------------------------Ramos
Possession Av------50%-----------------------58.1%

Shots on target Av---4-------------------------5

Shots off targ av-----4.2----------------------5.8


Even if you include the Bolton game for Redknapp and the Sunderland game for Ramos it reads:


Poss av--------------52.1-----------------------58.7

Shots on targ av-------4.6----------------------5.1

Shots off target-------5.1----------------------6.1


I thought I'd check to see if Redknapp had improved us defensively. Again this is a mere simplistic stat so doesn't conclusively prove anything but using the games above here are the shots on target we have conceded:


-------------------Redknapp----------Ramos

Shots on taget av
Conceded last 6------6.3--------------4.6

Shots on targ av
conceded last 5-------7---------------4.8

(I didn't include shots off target but trust me it was much worse for Redknapp as Arse and Liverpool hit shitoads)

We also need to take into account that Ramos played one his matches with 10 (and then 9) players for 80 minutes and Redknapp has played three of his matches against 10 men for more than a half.

Amazing that these playes with their new super confidence have actually proved less effective at both attacking and defending despite having a numerical advantage in three of the games.

What I cannot deny is that the vital stat of points Redknapp is pissing Ramos. But I think these stats prove that I'm not some dilusional maverick pissing his pants because of some irrational love of Ramos.

The reason I liked Ramos was not because he spoke of undying love of all things spurs or that he spoke a load of (i mean had a brother called) cock.
It was simply because I loved the way Sevilla played football and could see the way he got us playing football. The fact that he instantly identified weaknesses that Jol didn't in three seasons. The fact that he had previously at Sevilla and with us proved that come the big day we wouldn't be allowed to bottle it. I don't believe that under the circumstances listed above (and many other times) that 8 games this season or 12 months in total was enough to change the whole ethos, training, diet, team etc. I didn't think he always got it right and said so.
Unlike some who refuse to accept any mistake made by Jol.

But hey WTF. If another two seasons we were where we were when he took over from Jol then I'd be the first to say adios.

I hope Redkanpp proves me wrong, but I really think theboard panicked under threat of a few tossers demonstrating and a couple wanker players with bigger egos than ability.

You know what, I never wanted Jol to be sacked but he was so I backed Ramos.

I never wanted Ramos to be sacked, I always thought/hoped things would turn around with time under him. But he was sacked so now I back Redknapp, seems to be to be the only plausable thing to do, After all I support Spurs and not any of the indivdual components that make up the
club (certainly not once they left, even if I do wish them well)

Stats and figures do not always tell the whole story. I feel that football is a game where more often then not the most important factors are intangible and can not be documented in tables and figures.

For example, we could have had the same amount of shots in one game to the next but the quality of the chance and the shot could be greater where as before they were wasted pop shots with no possibilty of success (even though both shot would show up as equal as part of a statistic)

All I'm saying is Redknapp deserves our support as the current Spurs boss, he has a good record thus far and it is not his fault the previous manager was sacked.

Looking back at Ramos' reign now is as futile as the millions of posts we got on a daily basis from the likes of Bakez about Martin Jol and how terrible and evil Ramos and LEvy were/are.

Spilt milk and all that. For now, Redknapp is the man in the hotseat...he deserves a fair crack to show what he can do over a period of time (he has only worked with a group of players he inherited so far and thus far has a better record then those who put the squad together with them)

Is there any point in looking to chop him down already? he has won all but two of his games so far. While we may not be playing great and we may be over performing, he needs time to work on his new team as any manager would (bring in some of his own players and or put his own stamp on the squad)

Rome wasn't built in a day, any new manager (even the greatest) would need time to develop real understandings with his new team and get the best out of them, forge his own team/squad. It just so happens that Redknapp has been blessed by hitting the ground running and amass a great win percentage in his first 6 games.

Let's give the guy a break, it is far too early to be judging him. Calling him the messiah etc is certainly more then hopeful and we have to be realistic as to where we stand (the Fulham game reminds us of that) but I don't see why we would want to shoot a man down when he has had next to no time to work with the team (especially when thus far he has had such an impressive start to his Spurs career)

 

[guy]

The players were lost under ramos, they didnt know their roles, because he never spoke to them. Harry has told them they are good players and to go and play football.

The stats mean nothing to me as when ramos was in charge we had the majority of possession but it was all in our half, we rarely went past the half way let alone in the opposition's box

 

[scat1620]

You know what, I never wanted Jol to be sacked but he was so I backed Ramos.

I never wanted Ramos to be sacked, I always thought/hoped things would turn around with time under him. But he was sacked so now I back Redknapp, seems to be to be the only plausable thing to do, After all I support Spurs and not any of the indivdual components that make up the
club (certainly not once they left, even if I do wish them well)

Stats and figures do not always tell the whole story. I feel that football is a game where more often then not the most important factors are intangible and can not be documented in tables and figures.

For example, we could have had the same amount of shots in one game to the next but the quality of the chance and the shot could be greater where as before they were wasted pop shots with no possibilty of success (even though both shot would show up as equal as part of a statistic)

All I'm saying is Redknapp deserves our support as the current Spurs boss, he has a good record thus far and it is not his fault the previous manager was sacked.

Looking back at Ramos' reign now is as futile as the millions of posts we got on a daily basis from the likes of Bakez about Martin Jol and how terrible and evil Ramos and LEvy were/are.

Spilt milk and all that. For now, Redknapp is the man in the hotseat...he deserves a fair crack to show what he can do over a period of time (he has only worked with a group of players he inherited so far and thus far has a better record then those who put the squad together with them)

Is there any point in looking to chop him down already? he has won all but two of his games so far. While we may not be playing great and we may be over performing, he needs time to work on his new team as any manager would (bring in some of his own players and or put his own stamp on the squad)

Rome wasn't built in a day, any new manager (even the greatest) would need time to develop real understandings with his new team and get the best out of them, forge his own team/squad. It just so happens that Redknapp has been blessed by hitting the ground running and amass a great win percentage in his first 6 games.

Let's give the guy a break, it is far too early to be judging him. Calling him the messiah etc is certainly more then hopeful and we have to be realistic as to where we stand (the Fulham game reminds us of that) but I don't see why we would want to shoot a man down when he has had next to no time to work with the team (especially when thus far he has had such an impressive start to his Spurs career)

Rep, rep, rep, rep, rep, rep, rep! Brilliant post! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

I find it amusing but somehow admirable that you're playing Devil's Advocate for Ramos.

The stats show nothing. The fact is that we started the season under Ramos playing ok but not scoring goals. After a few games we stopped playing ok, the panic set in and we started losing every game. We were playing badly and we weren't scoring goals. We looked set for relegation. Even Poyet admitted that he and Ramos deserved to be sacked.

Harry has taken over and we've taken something like 13 points out of 18, climbed out of the relegation zone and we're scoring goals for fun. We've also kept a couple of clean sheets. Most importantly, mentally the players look up for it. Every player knows his position and feels motivated. Had Gomes not made some clangers we'd have done even better.

Whatever Ramos's history at Seville, he struggled at Spurs. Maybe the language barrier was a factor. Maybe he wasn't given the right players. Maybe it was simply the wrong club for him. I admired his management in the Carling Cup and am grateful that we won the trophy, but in the Premiership we were consistently awful. I am never seen a Spurs team so bereft of goals, direction and fight as the Spurs team from just six weeks ago. Even in the dark days of Gross or Pleat we looked up for a fight and could score goals. Until Redknapp took over, we looked dreadful. We were playing some strange hybrid of continental football that involved a few pretty passes in midfield, but no confidence, no final ball and no goals. Players who are now excelling looked woeful and there was no cohesion in the team whatsoever. Our sole points under Ramos came in a dogged draw against an out-of-form Chelsea and a goalless home draw against Wigan.

Maybe Redknapp isn't as glamorous a figure as Ramos, but his achievements already at Spurs should not be underestimated. I have no idea whether he's the man for us in the long-term (I hope he is) but for now he'll do very nicely indeed.

 

[gibbs131]

Arry' himself said he uses stats but stats can lie. He said that he noticed one player wasnt giving it oomf in training and his fitness coach said his bpm heartrate indicated he was working hard.

Arry told the coach he knows full well he isnt giving it his best because he knows what is REALLY going on.

Harry uses Prozone a lot but said that you read between the lines sometimes to get the result.

 

[gibbs131]

BTW TS this is the most shocking case of stats use to try and prove you were right all along

Your denial is insanity. I love it.

What is so bad to admitting you were wrong?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I just want to say that as it stands I'm not right or wrong. This is only an excercise in debunking mythology. I will only know whether my opinion of Redknapp wil be proven right or - hopefully - wrong in a couple of years time and will never know if my theory that Ramos would have been a better manager was correct.

I absoloutely, unreservedly accept that Redknapp deserves our support, and will get as much support/criticism from me as any other manager deserved.

This thread isn't saying catagorically that Redknapp is shit. I don't believe that. i think he has strengths and weaknesses.

This thread was more about highlighting the bullshit that gets spoken when results go for you and against you. I tried to use some simple stats to support that argument - but have said it plenty of times without stats.

People claiming that our performances have radicaly improved and players are now brimming with jizmic confidence are cack.

Instead of losing by the odd goal we're winning by the odd goal. Mostly against ten men.

Try to understand that you don't haveto play the best to win in this game, that's one of the reasons we love and hate it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BTW TS this is the most shocking case of stats use to try and prove you were right all along

Your denial is insanity. I love it.

What is so bad to admitting you were wrong?

How about you prove to me that our performances are better. Not results, because I know that.

Still think Modric is shit ?

I know what your favourite fruit is. Plum.

 

[gibbs131]

I just want to say that as it stands I'm not right or wrong. This is only an excercise in debunking mythology. I will only know whether my opinion of Redknapp wil be proven right or - hopefully - wrong in a couple of years time and will never know if my theory that Ramos would have been a better manager was correct.

I absoloutely, unreservedly accept that Redknapp deserves our support, and will get as much support/criticism from me as any other manager deserved.

This thread isn't saying catagorically that Redknapp is shit. I don't believe that. i think he has strengths and weaknesses.

This thread was more about highlighting the bullshit that gets spoken when results go for you and against you. I tried to use some simple stats to support that argument - but have said it plenty of times without stats.

People claiming that our performances have radicaly improved and players are now brimming with jizmic confidence are cack.

Instead of losing by the odd goal we're winning by the odd goal. Mostly against ten men.

Try to understand that you don't haveto play the best to win in this game, that's one of the reasons we love and hate it.

How did we get teams down to 10 men again? Oh yeah, playing the pants off teams and making them dive in.

Why are the players saying their games have been raised SPECIFICALLY because of Harry?

The players themselves are saying it. Why can't you trust the opinions of people with the ball at their feet?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How did we get teams down to 10 men again? Oh yeah, playing the pants off teams and making them dive in.

Why are the players saying their games have been raised SPECIFICALLY because of Harry?

The players themselves are saying it. Why can't you trust the opinions of people with the ball at their feet?

FFS Gibbs. What do you expect players to say. Do you want me to find you the quotes from players backing Ramos.

Did Bentley look like his game had been raised on Sunday ?

Here's a clue. No.

 

[Pinto]

I actually think BC's point is a worthwhile one I think the stats you used aren't really that good. Possession., especially when 2 of the teams Harry has played against are Liverpool and Arsenal at the Emirates who are going to dominate possession and make Harry's stats look worse than they will be by the end of the year.

Shots on target also don't matter that much as well. If you are up 2-0 you aren't going to pour in shots. Even up 1-0 your shots on target are going to change and especially in the Prem you are going to end up being a little bit more defensive and counter attacking then if you are losing 1-0 or 2-0 which we seemed to be doing a lot of under Ramos. Just think about it, when we are down we end up putting a ton of shots on goal, most of which are long shots and easily taken care of but none the less they count as a shot on target.

I might be talking bollocks as the Spurs way is so ingrained in some people's minds but I only care about the final score, if we win 1-0 from a long ball that Bent or Pavs finishes off then fine by me. You can call if ugly all you want I will take ugly and in the top 10 over pretty passing football and bottom of the table any day of the week.