DJS
A hoonter must hoont
- Dec 9, 2006
- 31,271
- 21,767
James Tarkovski is outta contract!!
The lack of coherency in our recruitment strategy
- Thread starter wrd
- Start date
Ghost Hardware
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 18,328
- 63,032
Well yeah, my point was that if we bring in that lot in summer then we would/should be challenging honours, not just top 4. As for this session I just feel we are still a Kane injury away from being in a pickle, right wing back is still a huge black hole and there’s still no creativity. Essentially we’ve only possibly added one first team player with Bentancur and he’s very similar to what we already have so won’t really add any new dimension even if he is picked ahead of Hoijberg.
spurs9
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 11,893
- 34,370
Bentancur is very much a CM not a CDM. Yes, he is defensively sound, but he is more like peak Winks but more physical and much better defensively. He also averages an assist every 484 mins in Serie A, for comparison, Brozovic averages an assist every 582 mins and Barella's average is every 537 mins.
Also, wanted to point out that Kulusevski started his career (until the Parma loan) mostly playing CM in a CM 3 (basically playing the same role Barella did under Conte). I know it's only youth level, but in Atalanta's B team, he scored 8 goals and got 10 assists in 17 games (1477 mins) playing in a similar role to Barella in a CM3. For context, Vlahovic played in the same competition at the same time for Fiorentina 's B team and scored 11 in 13 in 1133 mins.
Personally, depending how the 2 new signings adapt to the PL, I think CM is covered for now.
Completely agree with you on our outgoings, if GLC and Tanguy end up moving to those clubs permanently and Dele meets all of the clauses so we get 40m, then great but they are not likely to happen IMO.
Another window without signing a back up striker, even on loan, is a shambles again IMO.
Last edited:
Personally wouldn’t touch lamptey that was a very serious injury. And although he still looks a good player he’s definitely lost a yard imo. He’s still very quick but not as electric as before the injury. I’d be incredibly fearful with Conte work load that hamstring would ping again.
mpickard2087
Patient Zero
- Jun 13, 2008
- 21,889
- 32,562
Only just seen this thread, but I’d say there is a lack of overarching strategy, at least in the footballing operations, full stop. I was doing threads about this going back nearly a decade and nothing really has changed since then.
For me the best run clubs and best way to operate successfully long term is by having a clear and joined up vision of your aims, objectives, and how you go about that - and then carrying it out consistently. I don’t think that happens with us.
I don’t think we address the fundamental questions, such as:
Instead we lurch about, especially so in recent times, and it shows in what we do over the long term.
Even if everything aligns and you get it right sometimes for a spell – under Poch, or as many hope presently under Conte – You’re never going to be consistently very good long term over many managers if you don’t have a clear vision, understanding, and plan. To be fair up to a point Levy/Spurs had one strand of it at least, in terms of building a team and transfer model around younger players and took us a long way, but that became old hat/more difficult to do in the modern market and since then we’ve got totally stuck. We’re presently just hoping someone takes us to the top and/or trophies (outcomes), and not really putting in place a strategy for the best stable processes to make those good outcomes a more likely event on a consistent basis.
Personally I think it’s irrelevant somewhat as to whether there is currently a “plan” or “we’re backing Conte with A, B and C” etc. This might lead to 15 mins of fame and adulation and good times for a bit, but then I have no faith really that we’ll make a consistent/logical/good choice when the next man comes along, probably lurch off in another direction again, and we’ll have to scrabble around and have a bit more chaos as we try and put the pieces of the jigsaw together again. I think to be consistently operating at the top, especially considering the gap in resources we have to some clubs, we need to have as much long term and forensic and innovative planning and vision in footballing matters, matching what we’ve had in the off the pitch/infrastructure stuff.
For me the best run clubs and best way to operate successfully long term is by having a clear and joined up vision of your aims, objectives, and how you go about that - and then carrying it out consistently. I don’t think that happens with us.
I don’t think we address the fundamental questions, such as:
- What is a Tottenham team?
- What is the style and characteristics it plays in?
- What type of players do we need, whether that’s signings or being produced from the academy, in order to fulfil that? What are the common/key characteristics they need?
- What level of resources do we have? How does that compare to rivals? How do we operate in order to give ourselves competitive advantages?
Instead we lurch about, especially so in recent times, and it shows in what we do over the long term.
- No consistency in style of play. We plump for attacking front foot project managers, then think we need a winner and the style of play doesn’t matter, only to decide it does matter and try to force the next manager to adhere to certain things, then when that quickly doesn’t work decide again we need the big name, winner type, and he can do whatever he wants. No consistency at all. Because of this we scrabble about trying to adapt to contrasting styles of play. High press and energy under Poch. Low block defensive football under Jose. Whatever the fuck Nuno was doing, but he went with a new formation. Conte plays totally differently again, different formation with specific specialised roles eg. wingbacks. When things seem to be more revolution than evolution, no wonder chaos has ensued.
- This then leads to a messy squad, where players have been brought in over several managers, for different reasons and styles of play, and can quickly be cast aside. As the most recent example, it’s pretty absurd for instance that we spunked most of our limited resources last summer on Emerson and Gil, and literally 5 mins later are in a situation where they don’t really fit what we’re trying to do….
- Then there is the transfer policy itself. Here we just seem to go for the easy and obvious, and keep it simple in scope. Redknapp do your wheeling and dealing. Poch do what you want and call the shots. Mourinho/Mendes. Paratici and his Serie A contacts book. Whoever fills the hotseat just gets to go with what they know, and so again no consistency when the next one comes in. Our trading often seem to be looking for “bargains” and “opportunities” in the shape of easy deals such as who we get offered at the end of the Transfer Window. As there is no clear philosophy of play, we don’t – as I mentioned at the top - have a clear idea of what a Tottenham player looks like and get appropriate players to a plan. Seen also by buying numerous players in recent years and then experimenting as to where they fit into the team and what role they can take, etc. Our scouting and player identification department(s), whether that be old school in person scouting or modern data/analysis stuff seems basic and light years behind what other clubs do. I’d have thought this would be one aspect ENIC would have been all over, it would seem to be a crucial area for their type of model and a chance to compete with richer clubs, and find it incredible we don’t place a larger importance on how we go about player identification.
- This also goes for the academy. Again what is the type of player we’re trying to bring through related to the clubs ethos? I don’t think we bring through players with outstanding qualities – whether that’s technical, physical, or whatever. Most of those given a chance don’t seem ready or right for what they’re being asked to do, even the Winks/Skipp/Tanganga currently are good lads who do a job without being outstanding at anything or play in an identifiable style. I look at what some other clubs are doing now, you can say they can afford to put a lot of money into their set-ups but we’re talking mostly local/catchment area lads for these teams, and you’re seeing something more representative of their clubs style with really high base qualities – Chelsea academy players are athletic with a dollop of technical, Man City I saw a game recently where they had about three or four Foden clones and all of the young players in tune with the Guardiola/City pass-pass-pass stuff. Even Arsenal are starting to bring through some attacking flair players in the last year or two. Ours just seem neat and tidy, nice lads, but a bit of nothing and no real outstanding features. We also seem to have a problem with development paths and how to give players the best chance at progressing, whether that’s ultimately at THFC or not, and don’t seem to have as good a handle on the loan system as many other clubs do.
Even if everything aligns and you get it right sometimes for a spell – under Poch, or as many hope presently under Conte – You’re never going to be consistently very good long term over many managers if you don’t have a clear vision, understanding, and plan. To be fair up to a point Levy/Spurs had one strand of it at least, in terms of building a team and transfer model around younger players and took us a long way, but that became old hat/more difficult to do in the modern market and since then we’ve got totally stuck. We’re presently just hoping someone takes us to the top and/or trophies (outcomes), and not really putting in place a strategy for the best stable processes to make those good outcomes a more likely event on a consistent basis.
Personally I think it’s irrelevant somewhat as to whether there is currently a “plan” or “we’re backing Conte with A, B and C” etc. This might lead to 15 mins of fame and adulation and good times for a bit, but then I have no faith really that we’ll make a consistent/logical/good choice when the next man comes along, probably lurch off in another direction again, and we’ll have to scrabble around and have a bit more chaos as we try and put the pieces of the jigsaw together again. I think to be consistently operating at the top, especially considering the gap in resources we have to some clubs, we need to have as much long term and forensic and innovative planning and vision in footballing matters, matching what we’ve had in the off the pitch/infrastructure stuff.
double0
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2006
- 14,423
- 12,258
We can all label Paratici a failure, who, let's get it right, is working under handcuffs. We still have the rhinoceros in the glass house balancing plates.
I think those getting angry at the dealings are frankly bonkers in their expectations. We were never going to sort everything in one window. We shipped out 3 ACMs from a squad that will never play with a single ACM and replaced with a CM/DCM so that we have 4 players for 2 positions. That makes sense. Yes we wanted a RWB after giving Royal a whole 4 months to settle in and despite having one of Fantasy Footballs favourite RWBs for a few years at the club already (who until now hasnt been played in that position). BUT the wolves man (who isnt a RWB) chose Barca over us - who wouldn't?
Kulusevski is a real talent already and only 21 who, not only creates but can score (and scores like Harry in the sense that he controls the ball into the net rather than smashes it, showing a level of quality we are perhaps lacking around the team). Personally i think we cleared some players who were a negative influence on the fans if not the players and brought in 2 players that will make the squad better in regard to fitting to a Conte system. Is it enough? No, could we have done it in one window? No. Are there an awful lot of very good deals to be had in the summer? Yes. Could we have jumped on some early? Maybe but i think a lot of those players out of contract are going to leave themselves open as late as possible to see what they can get. Just look at who is available on a free in 4 months time, literally 7 or 8 prime CBs and 4 or 5 strikers under 30, not to mention right backs and plenty of CMs like Kessie, Brozovic, Tolisso (who may or may not have already committed). You have to give Conte at least 2 if not 3 windows to rebuild this squad.
Kulusevski is a real talent already and only 21 who, not only creates but can score (and scores like Harry in the sense that he controls the ball into the net rather than smashes it, showing a level of quality we are perhaps lacking around the team). Personally i think we cleared some players who were a negative influence on the fans if not the players and brought in 2 players that will make the squad better in regard to fitting to a Conte system. Is it enough? No, could we have done it in one window? No. Are there an awful lot of very good deals to be had in the summer? Yes. Could we have jumped on some early? Maybe but i think a lot of those players out of contract are going to leave themselves open as late as possible to see what they can get. Just look at who is available on a free in 4 months time, literally 7 or 8 prime CBs and 4 or 5 strikers under 30, not to mention right backs and plenty of CMs like Kessie, Brozovic, Tolisso (who may or may not have already committed). You have to give Conte at least 2 if not 3 windows to rebuild this squad.
thekneaf
Well-Known Member
- Jan 18, 2011
- 1,935
- 3,878
Felt pretty coherent to me. Ship out players that haven't bought in. Keep players that have, even ones like Bergwijn and Sanchez that were initially heading for the door. Squad is still being assessed.
5 attackers for 3 spots
4 midfielders for 2 spots
6 centre backs for 3 slots
2 rwb for 1 spot
2 lwb for 1 spot
We're definitely lean, but without Europe maybe we'll be OK. I feel that there is a plan and the plan is to only have players that fit Conte in skill set and application.
Concerning areas are lcb, rwb and back up to Kane (however I think it's clear that we've got more options with how to deal without Kane - whisper it we've often looked really good without Kane.
5 attackers for 3 spots
4 midfielders for 2 spots
6 centre backs for 3 slots
2 rwb for 1 spot
2 lwb for 1 spot
We're definitely lean, but without Europe maybe we'll be OK. I feel that there is a plan and the plan is to only have players that fit Conte in skill set and application.
Concerning areas are lcb, rwb and back up to Kane (however I think it's clear that we've got more options with how to deal without Kane - whisper it we've often looked really good without Kane.
Teegart
Scottish Yid
- Jun 30, 2006
- 815
- 2,188
It’s hard to know exactly what goes on behind the scenes, but I’m personally not keen on this rumoured Paratici scattergun approach. Sounding out and being in semi negotiations with loads of targets at once and moving for the best deal. That seems totally sub optimal to me, and seems more a “let’s get the best deal financially at all costs”.
I’d much prefer scouting heads, Paratici and Hitchen sat down with Conte and let him say to them, for example, “I need a wing back who has a, b and c attributes. Under no circumstance can they not have these, also I don’t want them to be a, b or c type of player, as this will not fit into my plans”. Then we find the best 2 or 3 targets for such a player, let Conte order them in preference and go full steam for the top of the list.
Maybe something like that is already in place, I’d very much hope it is. But from the links and news we’ve heard so far, it doesn’t come across as that way to me. Again though, who really knows.
I’d much prefer scouting heads, Paratici and Hitchen sat down with Conte and let him say to them, for example, “I need a wing back who has a, b and c attributes. Under no circumstance can they not have these, also I don’t want them to be a, b or c type of player, as this will not fit into my plans”. Then we find the best 2 or 3 targets for such a player, let Conte order them in preference and go full steam for the top of the list.
Maybe something like that is already in place, I’d very much hope it is. But from the links and news we’ve heard so far, it doesn’t come across as that way to me. Again though, who really knows.
spurs9
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 11,893
- 34,370
The last time we we had a season where we signed 2 or more players that turned out to quality additions was 2015/16 season (Son & Toby).
Since that season we have spent more on transfers (both outgoings and netspend) every season (except the season we didn't sign anyone) totaling 503 million.
That is appalling and shows it isn't due to penny pinching but scouting and or decision making.
Since that season we have spent more on transfers (both outgoings and netspend) every season (except the season we didn't sign anyone) totaling 503 million.
That is appalling and shows it isn't due to penny pinching but scouting and or decision making.
double0
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2006
- 14,423
- 12,258
Penny pinching at its finest we've made poor decisions based on money and ended up paying the price.
I totally agree that our scouting hasn't been at all good in identifying other options.
spursfan77
Well-Known Member
- Aug 13, 2005
- 46,684
- 104,964
With the free transfer market looking pretty fruitful over the next two years we need a man to take advantage of it. It is going to be competitive and cut throat. We need a man who is willing to be underhand and stab a few backs whilst treating with agents and promising them x and y. Is Paratici our man for this? Are we as a club willing to pay the high agent and signing on fees that will be required?
brasil_spur
SC Supporter
- Aug 25, 2006
- 12,710
- 16,808
Mostly agree with this, except for the lean part.
Man City have 22 players in their squad right now. 3 of them are GKs. One of those players is Cole Palmer, a 19 year old academy graduate who has made 13 senior appearances in his career. Another one of those players is Mendy, who is currently facing 7 charges of rape and is suspended from the team. So that leaves 17 outfield players covering 10 positions.
Obviously Man City have some very high quality players across their team but the point is about having the right players rather than a large squad of players.
Given that we're not competing in Europe this season now, I think that what we currently have is sufficient in terms of numbers for us to get a Top 4 spot. In terms of coherency I also agree that we're start to build a more coherent squad using the 2 players per position model:
GK: Lloris | Gollini
RWB: Emerson | Doherty
RCB: Romero | Sanchez | Tanganga
CB: Dier | Rodon
LCB: Davies
LWB: Reguilon | Sessegnon
CM: Hojbjerg | Skipp
CM: Winks | Bentancur
LW: Son | Bergwijn
RW: Lucas | Kulusevski
ST: Kane
The obvious hole on paper right now is backup for Kane. However there's flexibility across the attacking players and we can move to a 3-5-2 formation to reduce the need for 6 x attacking players if injuries hit.
The ones above in bold are those that I see us keeping in the summer, which means finding another 6 players to bring in to complete the squad. With the addition of Sarr that would give us 21 outfield players in total covering 10 positions:
GK: New backup player to replace Gollini
RWB: Sell Doherty and buy attacking RWB to replace, keeping Emerson as rotation
RCB: Keep one of Sanchez or Tanganga to ensure rotation, probably Sanchez is more reliable player currently but also has higher sales value
CB: Assuming Rodon isn't in our plans then bring in Dier rotation player to replace, if not keep Rodon
LCB: Need first team replacement for Davies who can become the rotation player
ST: Need Kane rotation player
So whilst that seems like a lot to do, we could just keep Gollini and Rodon to reduce the need for incomings. That would mean only 4 additional players needed in the summer, which ties in with the ITK of us needing 6 new players (2 brought in during Jan window already).
With the current squad plus a quality RWB, a quality LCB and useful rotation striker for Kane I reckon we have a great looking squad for 2022 season.
fishhhandaricecake
Well-Known Member
- Nov 15, 2018
- 19,250
- 48,141
Squad is slowly looking more and more balanced to what conte wants and there is the clearest sign of a plan for a long time
Lloris/Gollini
Emerson/Doherty + Kulusevski can play RWB too
Romero / Sanchez
Dier / Tanganga
Davies / Rodon
Reggi / Sess
Bentancur / Winks
Skipp / PEH
Kulusevski/ Lucas
Kane / Bergwijn
Son
? COYS
Lloris/Gollini
Emerson/Doherty + Kulusevski can play RWB too
Romero / Sanchez
Dier / Tanganga
Davies / Rodon
Reggi / Sess
Bentancur / Winks
Skipp / PEH
Kulusevski/ Lucas
Kane / Bergwijn
Son
? COYS
fishhhandaricecake
Well-Known Member
- Nov 15, 2018
- 19,250
- 48,141
Pretty much this although I think we’d look to add another attacking midfielder also , someone like Dybala would be ideal as he can play as a 9 or 10.
hellava_tough
Well-Known Member
- Apr 21, 2005
- 9,429
- 12,383
Good post.
You need the right type of player for differing formations and tactics, but GKs, FBs, CBs and STs should really be able to play in any formation, whether it be 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 3-5-2, etc.
So once these players are in, they shouldn't need to be replaced if the formation or manager changes. At the end of the day, a CB is a CB!
The same can more or less be said for AMs/FW/Wingers; whatever you want to call them. A quick, skillful player, with an eye for a pass, should really be able to utilise those skills in varying formations.
So that only really leaves the CM options, where there might be a wider variation in player styles and utility. This area might need changing if a new manager comes in.
Overall, I don't think it would be that difficult to construct a versatile squad, which is refreshed by 2 or 3 players a season (including academy players).
We should never be in a scenario where a massive overhaul of the playing staff is needed!
hellava_tough
Well-Known Member
- Apr 21, 2005
- 9,429
- 12,383
Would like to see a 3rd choice striker 'target-man' too.
There'll be 5 or 6 crucial games a season where we'll need to throw someone on to cause chaos in the opponent's backline.
Another tool in the box, so to speak.
A very good assessment. I do think that we may see Lucas go in the summer with the Kane rotation option replacing him. FP has a remit to reduce the age of the squad. Lucas, Kane and Son are all in their late 20s and therefore FP will need to look long term and start looking for their successors. You can’t replace all three together and with Lucas being 30 at the start of next season, his immediate value to the team isn’t as important as Son and Kane. It may also be the right time to get a decent fee.
SCUMmucs
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 188
- 453
Not to completely defend the club but constantly changing managers has an impact on what type of players are needed. We have basically had 3 very contrasting managers over the last few years which will impact the type of players we are after.
imagine grealish under mourinho for example or even conte. That work rate would never have worked or even been allowed to hang around.
imagine grealish under mourinho for example or even conte. That work rate would never have worked or even been allowed to hang around.
mr ashley
Well-Known Member
- Jan 27, 2011
- 3,138
- 8,537
Not sure I agree with this regarding Lucas.
firstly, I don’t think there’s another player who wants to be here more than him. He’s by far the most vocal in his love for the club (on social media at least), so moving him on might be hard.
not dismissing it entirely because lamela wanted to stay too, and eventually accepted the need to move on.
In terms of the continued rebuild of the squad, the players I expect we will look to upgrade will be:
Gollini -Johnstone
Rodon- pau Torres
Tanganga- de vrij
Doherty - lamptey
Winks- kessie
Kane backup- de ketelaere or David
Which would round the squad off pretty nicely.
Obviously some of these deals might not happen because 6 ins/outs is a lot
