The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[Bus-Conductor]

Dier scores that goal and we go on to win, poch did great.
Dier hits post and utd go on to win, poch treats the competition with disdain.

Poch shouldn't need to motivate the players to win that game. Many of them have never won a trophy. Is the fa cup as important to us as getting cl football next season? No. But it doesn't mean that we didn't want to win it.

The problem is mentality of the players and the fans. Utd are arrogant and believe they have a right to win trophies. We do not have that mentality yet. We need a bit of luck and winning something will happen, when it does more will follow. But poch is not the problem.

I think this mentality thing is a bit of a misnomer. I'm not saying players don't need a strong mentality, they do, but most of our players have a pretty strong mentality, otherwise how would we have got the results we have the last couple of years, beaten Real Madrid, Chelsea away two weeks ago, etc . Arsenal have won more trophies than ManU in the last 5 years, why should ManU's mentality have been so much stronger than ours, especially as we'd mullered them last time we'd played them.

People like to fall back on the "mentality" thing because it's easy, it's impossible to quantify or qualify. I think the truth is, some of this is on Poch, some is on the players and some of this is just economics and, well sport.

We were playing a very good team, just as we are a very good team. Last time we played them their manager got his tactics very wrong, this time he changed them and they were functioning better as a collective and some of their very expensively assembled players did the kind of things that very talented players can do, when they are given a good tactical platform by their coach.

We did some good things, but our manager didn't quite get as much right as theirs did and, partly as a result of this tactical error(s) some our quality players weren't able to perform as well, individually and collectively.

I really don't think there was some hoodoo going on, or they had Michael Ironside scanning our weak brained players until their little brains exploded and they capitulated. It was just a simple case of them being tactically, marginally better at doing what they do, than we were at doing what we do.

 

[Bobbins]

I think this mentality thing is a bit of a misnomer. I'm not saying players don't need a strong mentality, they do, but most of our players have a pretty strong mentality, otherwise how would we have got the results we have the last couple of years, beaten Real Madrid, Chelsea away two weeks ago, etc . Arsenal have won more trophies than ManU in the last 5 years, why should ManU's mentality have been so much stronger than ours, especially as we'd mullered them last time we'd played them.

People like to fall back on the "mentality" thing because it's easy, it's impossible to quantify or qualify. I think the truth is, some of this is on Poch, some is on the players and some of this is just economics and, well sport.

We were playing a very good team, just as we are a very good team. Last time we played them their manager got his tactics very wrong, this time he changed them and they were functioning better as a collective and some of their very expensively assembled players did the kind of things that very talented players can do, when they are given a good tactical platform by their coach.

We did some good things, but our manager didn't quite get as much right as theirs did and, partly as a result of this tactical error(s) some our quality players weren't able to perform as well, individually and collectively.

I really don't think there was some hoodoo going on, or they had Michael Ironside scanning our weak brained players until their little brains exploded and they capitulated. It was just a simple case of them being tactically, marginally better at doing what they do, than we were at doing what we do.

Did you not feel a sense of inevitability when they equalised?

I get what you’re saying but I think there was a bigger difference - as soon as they scored we instantly stopped playing - we were all over them up until then. We pressed collectively and furiously, we passed and pushed and moved vertically relentlessly, we played and moved with pace and power.

When they scored, all of that changed - we withdrew, we slowed down, we stopped pressing (effectively), we decided the sideways safe pass was the right one every time.


We completely withdrew into our shells once they scored and whilst the genuine ability of our squad meant we were never completely out of the tie, the general feeling was that we were second best for a good 60mins and United played us exactly how they wanted to.

We made the perfect start to the game. To not only let that slip but to also then allow United to utterly impose their chosen game on us after that was incredibly disappointing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Did you not feel a sense of inevitability when they equalised?

I get what you’re saying but I think there was a bigger difference - as soon as they scored we instantly stopped playing - we were all over them up until then. We pressed collectively and furiously, we passed and pushed and moved vertically relentlessly, we played and moved with pace and power.

When they scored, all of that changed - we withdrew, we slowed down, we stopped pressing (effectively), we decided the sideways safe pass was the right one every time.


We completely withdrew into our shells once they scored and whilst the genuine ability of our squad meant we were never completely out of the tie, the general feeling was that we were second best for a good 60mins and United played us exactly how they wanted to.

We made the perfect start to the game. To not only let that slip but to also then allow United to utterly impose their chosen game on us after that was incredibly disappointing.

I didn’t see it quite like that, but what I did see I didn’t reconcile to mentality of the two teams but to performance, individual, collective and tactical.

A goal can always change the dynamics of a game, slightly or more pronounced. And I think teams that start brightly can also burn themselves out a bit, whilst the opponent can gradually find nd their feet in the game.

We did start well, but Kane was clearly fucked after about 20 minutes, so we were unable to maintain a good high press, (this helped) their midfield (3) started to get to grips with ours (2) from about 15 minutes in and Poch took until the second half to drop Eriksen back to help.

I don’t think this was anything to do with mentality. Just as I don’t think it was lack of mentality by them when we took them part a few weeks ago.

It was all about tactics and performance- individual and collective - and not by huge margins either, all their players had to be close to their best and a few of ours weren’t and we still only just lost.

It’s not like they thoroughly outplayed us the way we did them a few weeks ago.

 

[Lilbaz]

I didn’t see it quite like that, but what I did see I didn’t reconcile to mentality of the two teams but to performance, individual, collective and tactical.

A goal can always change the dynamics of a game, slightly or more pronounced. And I think teams that start brightly can also burn themselves out a bit, whilst the opponent can gradually find nd their feet in the game.

We did start well, but Kane was clearly fucked after about 20 minutes, so we were unable to maintain a good high press, (this helped) their midfield (3) started to get to grips with ours (2) from about 15 minutes in and Poch took until the second half to drop Eriksen back to help.

I don’t think this was anything to do with mentality. Just as I don’t think it was lack of mentality by them when we took them part a few weeks ago.

It was all about tactics and performance- individual and collective - and not by huge margins either, all their players had to be close to their best and a few of ours weren’t and we still only just lost.

It’s not like they thoroughly outplayed us the way we did them a few weeks ago.

I disagree. If dier was more like a roy keane where our players were more scared of him than the opposition. We would have won.
Keane and viera were just as much about their presence on the pitch as their ability. We don't have that.

Ask phill taylor how many of his titles he won through having better tactics or ability. He has always said it was mostly about his mentality.

 

[Mullers]

I think this mentality thing is a bit of a misnomer. I'm not saying players don't need a strong mentality, they do, but most of our players have a pretty strong mentality, otherwise how would we have got the results we have the last couple of years, beaten Real Madrid, Chelsea away two weeks ago, etc . Arsenal have won more trophies than ManU in the last 5 years, why should ManU's mentality have been so much stronger than ours, especially as we'd mullered them last time we'd played them.

People like to fall back on the "mentality" thing because it's easy, it's impossible to quantify or qualify. I think the truth is, some of this is on Poch, some is on the players and some of this is just economics and, well sport.

We were playing a very good team, just as we are a very good team. Last time we played them their manager got his tactics very wrong, this time he changed them and they were functioning better as a collective and some of their very expensively assembled players did the kind of things that very talented players can do, when they are given a good tactical platform by their coach.

We did some good things, but our manager didn't quite get as much right as theirs did and, partly as a result of this tactical error(s) some our quality players weren't able to perform as well, individually and collectively.

I really don't think there was some hoodoo going on, or they had Michael Ironside scanning our weak brained players until their little brains exploded and they capitulated. It was just a simple case of them being tactically, marginally better at doing what they do, than we were at doing what we do.

Some of it is on Poch and the players, but the reason why Man Utd have a stronger mentality than us is because as a club they expect to win trophies, we don't. They would be horrified if they went a decade without winning anything. It's a different kind of pressure playing in a semi final or a knock out stage as opposed to a group game or a league game.

 

[blackburn]

Did you not feel a sense of inevitability when they equalised?

I get what you’re saying but I think there was a bigger difference - as soon as they scored we instantly stopped playing - we were all over them up until then. We pressed collectively and furiously, we passed and pushed and moved vertically relentlessly, we played and moved with pace and power.

When they scored, all of that changed - we withdrew, we slowed down, we stopped pressing (effectively), we decided the sideways safe pass was the right one every time.


We completely withdrew into our shells once they scored and whilst the genuine ability of our squad meant we were never completely out of the tie, the general feeling was that we were second best for a good 60mins and United played us exactly how they wanted to.

We made the perfect start to the game. To not only let that slip but to also then allow United to utterly impose their chosen game on us after that was incredibly disappointing.

I think you're right but I'm not convinced Poch is to blame. United had a team full of experienced pros who managed the game far better than us. I appreciate our MO is to build and develop young players, but right now we need a couple of senior players that have been round the block, Davids and Parker spring to mind as examples. I really hope Poch has identified at least one such player to sign this summer.

 

[coys200]

People have such short memories. Poch is right it’s a long process. 10–15 years ago we were a mid table team. We then progressed to being 4-6th team. The last 3 seasons we’ve moved on to 2-4th team. The progression is there and clear to see. Significantly this season for me was our CL form. We’ve shown we can compete with the best in Europe. We will go into next years CL with a punchers chance of winning. I wouldn’t have dreamed that possible 5 years ago. It was just a scramble to qualify, now you can actually realistically believe with a decent draw like Liverpool we could go along way in it. Hopefully the next step will be trophies.

 

[Ben1]

I agree that Poch has done a great job with the process etc etc etc, but hearing him and fans being excited over 'competing' with 'big' teams is boring and comes across a tad small time. There is a lot of praise to be had in how we got here, but we currently have one of best strikers in Europe, one of most talented youngsters in the world, eriksen who wouldn't look out of place anywhere, the French number one and many other top quality internationals. I'd say competing is a bare minimum right now. Nevertheless, his job in getting us here is outstanding.

 

[Donki]

Some of it is on Poch and the players, but the reason why Man Utd have a stronger mentality than us is because as a club they expect to win trophies, we don't. They would be horrified if they went a decade without winning anything. It's a different kind of pressure playing in a semi final or a knock out stage as opposed to a group game or a league game.

This all day, and why United is still arguably the biggest club in the world. We have had a squad of players for the last 2-3 seasons that are well capable of winning something yet TBH we have not managed it. While tactics and a game plan has a part to play in the big games that really matter a massive part is on the players to perform we don’t seem to be able to do that.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think you're right but I'm not convinced Poch is to blame. United had a team full of experienced pros who managed the game far better than us. I appreciate our MO is to build and develop young players, but right now we need a couple of senior players that have been round the block, Davids and Parker spring to mind as examples. I really hope Poch has identified at least one such player to sign this summer.

Hmmm.....


Hugo Lloris - 31 years old. Trophy winner at Lyon. Years of domestic and European campaigns. This summer will go past the 100 cap barrier for France, multiple tournament experience - and as captain.

Michel Vorm - 34 years old. 15 caps for Holland, multiple tournament experience.

Kieran Trippier - 27 years old. Now a seasoned domestic campaigner.

Serge Aurier - 25 years old. Tonnes of trophies picked up at PSG. Loads of European experience. 45 international caps, and has won the African Cup of Nations.

Ben Davies - Now 25 years old. Seasoned PL campaigner, lots of European experience picked up with us. International regular and was in the thick of it as Wales had their spirited run at the Euro's.

Danny Rose - Almost 28 years old. Many years of PL and European football experience. International and tournament experience.

Toby Alderweireld - 29 years old. Many league titles, in two countries. CL finalist. Many caps/tournaments for Belgium.

Jan Vertonghen - 31 years old. Two league titles. Many European campaigns under his belt. About to win his 100th Belgian cap.

Eric Dier - Even at 24, has many seasons of PL and European football under his wings. International and Tournament experience.

Victor Wanyama - 27 years old in a few weeks time. Won league titles. Plenty of European experience, including starring roles when Celtic have shocked bigger teams, and international caps.

Mousa Dembele - Nearly 31 years old. League title winner in Holland, with an underdog team. Many years of PL and European football experience. Many caps, and tournament football experience, for Belgium.

Moussa Sissoko - 29 years old in the summer. Over 400 senior appearances in France and England. Over 50 caps for France, with tournament experience and runners up at the Euro's.

Christian Eriksen - 26 years old. Multiple league title winner. Many European campaigns behind him. Over 75 international caps, with tournament experience.

Erik Lamela - 26 years old. Now got several PL and European campaigns under his belt. 20+ caps at International level, including in two Copa America runners-up squads.

Lucas Moura - Nearly 26 years old. Copa Sudamericana winner at Sao Paulo. Many titles won at PSG. Loads of domestic and European experience. 36 Brazil caps, and been in many squads such as the Olympic runners-up and the Confederations Cup winning team.

Son Heung-Min - 26 years old in the summer. Many years experience now in German and English football. Many European campaigns. Over 60 caps for South Korea, with tournaments. also has to live with the pressure of being 'the man' in his home country - as far as football goes at least.

Harry Kane - Almost 25 years old. Now has several PL and European campaigns under his belt. Has international tournament experience. Has captaincy experience. Has a ton of goals under his belt against all teams.

Fernando Llorente - And to finish off... 33 years old. Over 500 career appearances. Several league titles at Juventus. CL runners-up at Juve. Europa League winner at Sevilla. Europa League runner-up at Bilbao. 25 caps for Spain, part of squads that have won the Euro's and the World Cup.



Maybe I've overdone the point there, but I cannot buy the 'we lack experience' line anymore. It isn't a bunch of rookies in their teens/early 20's who've come a long way very quickly and suddenly find themselves competing at the top. The vast majority of the squad are in their prime years now, and/or have experience, and wins, under their belt in many competitions domestically and on other fronts from all corners of the globe. How much more experience is needed?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I disagree. If dier was more like a roy keane where our players were more scared of him than the opposition. We would have won.
Keane and viera were just as much about their presence on the pitch as their ability. We don't have that.

Ask phill taylor how many of his titles he won through having better tactics or ability. He has always said it was mostly about his mentality.

There was no Keane out there for ManU either last week. As I said, mentality is good, but (like speed) is only useful when it’s attached to a great player. Keane and Vieira were also great players.

Lee Cattarmole is a ferocious competitor with huge mentality, but wouldn’t turn us into winners.

And again, Phil Taylor was a brilliant darts player.

We have a good mentality, we have shown this repeatedly, coming by from two goals behind at Juve, coming from behind to best Chelsea at their place for the first time in 30 years.

 

[lukespurs7]

There was no Keane out there for ManU either last week. As I said, mentality is good, but (like speed) is only useful when it’s attached to a great player. Keane and Vieira were also great players.

Lee Cattarmole is a ferocious competitor with huge mentality, but wouldn’t turn us into winners.

And again, Phil Taylor was a brilliant darts player.

We have a good mentality, we have shown this repeatedly, coming by from two goals behind at Juve, coming from behind to best Chelsea at their place for the first time in 30 years.

We just need a few better players:
FB’s
CM
AM
back/up striker

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Pochettino has taken us form being a good club to an almost great club, on the whole playing good football (even if lacking a bit of flair/ artistry at times) and has developed some fantastic players. I have faith that he can take us that next step to make us a great club, but he needs to see that a a few slight changes are probably necessary. Nothing drastic, this is about evolution not revolution, but something to ensure the stay on an upward trajectory because once you stagnate (we haven't yet) the eventual result is that the good work which has been done, is undone.

Some more bravery with youngsters ahead of deadwood squaddies when the stakes are low would be a good start. A bit more rotation (I just don't accept that Janssen or Llorente would have flopped so badly if they'd had more involvement when the first choice is clearly running out of steam. A more expressive central midfield when playing against sides who won't offer enough threat to justify two 'solid' options at CM.

The good news is that these are all very achievable, and none would massively compromise on his core philosophy all of these should be achievable with Pochettino.

 

[nailsy]

I think this mentality thing is a bit of a misnomer. I'm not saying players don't need a strong mentality, they do, but most of our players have a pretty strong mentality, otherwise how would we have got the results we have the last couple of years, beaten Real Madrid, Chelsea away two weeks ago, etc . Arsenal have won more trophies than ManU in the last 5 years, why should ManU's mentality have been so much stronger than ours, especially as we'd mullered them last time we'd played them.

People like to fall back on the "mentality" thing because it's easy, it's impossible to quantify or qualify. I think the truth is, some of this is on Poch, some is on the players and some of this is just economics and, well sport.

We were playing a very good team, just as we are a very good team. Last time we played them their manager got his tactics very wrong, this time he changed them and they were functioning better as a collective and some of their very expensively assembled players did the kind of things that very talented players can do, when they are given a good tactical platform by their coach.

We did some good things, but our manager didn't quite get as much right as theirs did and, partly as a result of this tactical error(s) some our quality players weren't able to perform as well, individually and collectively.

I really don't think there was some hoodoo going on, or they had Michael Ironside scanning our weak brained players until their little brains exploded and they capitulated. It was just a simple case of them being tactically, marginally better at doing what they do, than we were at doing what we do.

Witches curse innit!?!

If anyone doesn't know what that means check out Mondays Football Weekly podcast for an excellent arguement between Barney Ronay and Barry Glendenning about why we've lost so many semi finals.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Witches curse innit!?!

If anyone doesn't know what that means check out Mondays Football Weekly podcast for an excellent arguement between Barney Ronay and Barry Glendenning about why we've lost so many semi finals.

I mentioned this in the ratings thread

 

[nailsy]

I mentioned this in the ratings thread

It was brilliant wasn't it? It was almost like a pub argument by the end.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It was brilliant wasn't it? It was almost like a pub argument by the end.

Ronay completely shut Glendenning up didn’t he.

 

[steve]

Ronay completely shut Glendenning up didn’t he.

Just listened to it....to be honest he didn't go far enough in my opinion, Barry was talking half arsed lazy shit and deserved to be called out on it...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Just listened to it....to be honest he didn't go far enough in my opinion, Barry was talking half arsed lazy shit and deserved to be called out on it...

Yeah agree, as I said in the ratings thread, two weeks before we'd come from behind to get a win at Chelsea for the first time in nearly 30 years.

And also, when talking about our 8 FA Cup semis over the last couple of decades, people seem to conveniently ignore that we've won 4 league cup semis, two of them banging 5 goals past Arsenal and Chelsea (when they were much better than us), and won two League cup finals, one of them against Chelsea, the other with ten men.

 

[steve]

Yeah agree, as I said in the ratings thread, two weeks before we'd come from behind to get a win at Chelsea for the first time in nearly 30 years.

And also, when talking about our 8 FA Cup semis over the last couple of decades, people seem to conveniently ignore that we've won 4 league cup semis, two of them banging 5 goals past Arsenal and Chelsea (when they were much better than us), and won two League cup finals.

The other bloke talked some shit too, saying how Spurs heads dropped and they didn't believe they could get back into it after going behind....completely ignoring how United did a full Jose special, time wasting, breaking up the game with persistent fouling (and Valencia should've seen red massively changing things), and just basically shelling it whilst man marking Eriksen.

We usually wobble a bit after conceding and we didn't cover ourselves in glory quality wise but you can't ignore who we were playing and how they played and then stick it all on a ' lack of belief '.