The ousting of Daniel (COYS)

[DarwinSpur]

If we get Enic out does that mean we get to choose who comes in?

 

[floydiohead]

Unfortunately sense is what's lacking at the top.

These protests aren't going to remove ENIC or Levy, of course they aren't. He'll carry on being 'surprised' at the way fans have turned, they'll (the board) carry on thinking they are doing it the right way and at some point soon we'll carry on falling for it. It's obvious to me that the best we can hope to achieve is the sort of cosmetic lip service provided yesterday to shut the hoi polloi up, give it time, it'll all die down and at some point, Levy will luck and blunder into something a la Poch, the team will do well for a period and at some point (again), laurels will be sat on, money, philosophy and ambition won't be forthcoming and it all goes sour again.

At when that happens we can all resume micro arguing silly little fuck-all points that lose sight of and deflect from the real problem because it makes us look like those are the issues when they aren't. If you cut out and cut through all the petty and distracting asides, the 'on the pitch' side of the club has been disgracefully neglected to the point where fans have turned en masse and this isn't some sort of mass delusion, we've every right to be unhappy, cut through it all and there's been no direction, philosophy or plan because the man at the top isn't cut out for that. So it's easy to see why when he uses the word 'investment', it's not in the sense we think.

It's all gotten to stale, it's all too 'meh', fans are switching off in droves, hardly anyone enjoys the whole shitty situation and people defend them?

Change is badly needed now and that feeling has been coming for a long time


EDIT: I forgot to say that If you don't see the point in specific forms of protest, fine, but again, you're arguing the finer points when the big picture is slipping by. In whatever (reasonable) form it might take, protest IS our voice, and it is the only real voice we have.

Oust!

spot on.

 

[EireYid]

If the majority of the fan base are happy with Levy and Levy-in as some suggest then why arent we hearing chants for them in the stadium or away? ? Surely the majority could outsing the minority.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

There is certainly some truth in what you say, but I see so much shit written about ENIC just being interested in profit when they have never taken money out the club, and all profits have always been ploughed back into the team, that it makes me think a lot of people don't understand the connection.

I think there is likely confusion all around here.

While its true that ENIC do not take dividends, its also true that they have not spent all of the "profits" on the team.

The bulk of the historical profits have gone back into the club in the form of investments in tangible assets.

In 2006 the club reported Tangible assets of £49M
In 2021 the club reported Tangible assets of £1.35B in tangible assets.


What ENIC has done is very common - particularly amongst the very wealthy. Instead of taking dividends from the club, which are immediately taxable, they have invested money back into the club in the form of the training ground, the stadium, and the surrounding real estate purchases. This has allowed their investment to grow tax-deferred for 20+ years.

So, don't mistake the notion that ENIC not taking dividends is tied to their investment in the football operations -its not where they are investing.

 

[Spursfan1414]

If the majority of the fan base are happy with Levy and Levy-in as some suggest then why arent we hearing chants for them in the stadium or away? ? Surely the majority could outsing the minority.

I don't want Levy Out, that doesn't mean I'm so thrilled with how things are going that I want to venerate the bloke and chant his name.

I feel the same about Conte. I'm not wishing that he leaves, that doesn't mean I think he's doing such a good job that I'm going to chant for him specifically.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I think there is likely confusion all around here.

While its true that ENIC do not take dividends, its also true that they have not spent all of the "profits" on the team.

The bulk of the historical profits have gone back into the club in the form of investments in tangible assets.

In 2006 the club reported Tangible assets of £49M
In 2021 the club reported Tangible assets of £1.35B in tangible assets.


What ENIC has done is very common - particularly amongst the very wealthy. Instead of taking dividends from the club, which are immediately taxable, they have invested money back into the club in the form of the training ground, the stadium, and the surrounding real estate purchases. This has allowed their investment to grow tax-deferred for 20+ years.

So, don't mistake the notion that ENIC not taking dividends is tied to their investment in the football operations -its not where they are investing.

Yeah did acknowledge this in my response to another poster making a similar point.

I should have said ‘club’ rather than ‘team’.

 

[only1waddle]

What is the difference? Your draft isn’t exactly the work of Shakespeare. If they had used the phrase ‘we plan to rectify this’ they would be slaughtered for not telling us what the plan is.

What is the difference? Your draft isn’t exactly the work of Shakespeare. If they had used the phrase ‘we plan to rectify this’ they would be slaughtered for not telling us what the plan is.

I've never claimed I was Shakespeare, no need to be a dick about it.

 

[Hotspur33]

I've never claimed I was Shakespeare, no need to be a dick about it.

My point is, the response was fine. There was nothing to get enraged about. But as soon as it was posted on here, there were people lining up to compete to be the most offended.
For most Anti-Levy fans, there was nothing they could have said in that statement, that would have been satisfactory.

 

[DarwinSpur]

Yeah did acknowledge this in my response to another poster making a similar point.

I should have said ‘club’ rather than ‘team’.

It was a good point either way as you made it because people lose their shit about the Club's accounts like any profit is Levy and Lewis personally lining their pockets.

The only way that happens is if Levy does as this thread demands and sells.

There are no guarantees that any new owners won't take sizeable dividends from a profit making Club as the Glazers did.

 

[[email protected]]

It's all connected though lol. But if you don't understand the connection between generating additional revenue streams through better infrastructure, and enhancing player performance through better facilities then I can't help you.

You're describing what should be happening not what does happen. “Generating additional revenue streams” only has value to FOOTBALL supporters if it’s realised as significant sustained, and targeted investment in the squad. Under Levy, we’re still operating with the
-Lowest % spend to income received
So what’s the point of generating all this income if Levy still chooses to scrap around for cheap opportunist deals, buys players he (and not the manager) wants for future resale value, and spends so long trying to extract the maximum value from a deal, that the manager misses out on a player in a position he’s asked to be strengthened over 2 windows and 8 months?! It’s operating like we were still at the old WHL, not at a “game changing” stadium that charges the highest ticket prices in Europe. And to resort to your level of glib condescension: if you can’t understand why that’s a problem to so many genuine supporters of this Club then “I really can’t help you”.

 

[EireYid]

I don't want Levy Out, that doesn't mean I'm so thrilled with how things are going that I want to venerate the bloke and chant his name.

I feel the same about Conte. I'm not wishing that he leaves, that doesn't mean I think he's doing such a good job that I'm going to chant for him specifically.

It was tongue in cheek. I just don't believe the majority are Levy in as stated in here and that it's only this site that is Levy out.

 

[spursfan77]

If you broke down the entire collection of match-going Spurs supporters, I'd venture a guess that only 10-20% of them are active on forums. There's probably 10-20% that aren't online at all, and then another 60-80% that maybe check twitter or lurk when they're bored or there's potential big news coming.

So we don’t know what they think but I bet a lot are fed up.

 

[RuskyM]

I mean reading it again I think the club have these easy points made for them. That’s the main issue with ENIC Out for me: there’s no clear fix they want to happen, apart from we’d like to win. So would everyone, including, I presume, ENIC. If it was the super league debacle again or Stratford or ENIC were taking money out of the club, fine. Hell, if we were like Everton I’d also understand it because you’re genuinely fearful your club is facing an avoidable oblivion. But we do spend money. We keep our best assets. We hire incredibly expensive managers. I like the trust as a whole but I just don’t really know what they (or many posters here) were expecting.

And I’ve derided Levy many times, but I just don’t think a lot of the arguments hold water. There’s plenty better ones to be made that would actually challenge them and their stuttering business model.

 

[Stavrogin]

These protests aren't going to remove ENIC or Levy, of course they aren't. He'll carry on being 'surprised' at the way fans have turned, they'll (the board) carry on thinking they are doing it the right way and at some point soon we'll carry on falling for it. It's obvious to me that the best we can hope to achieve is the sort of cosmetic lip service provided yesterday to shut the hoi polloi up, give it time, it'll all die down and at some point, Levy will luck and blunder into something a la Poch, the team will do well for a period and at some point (again), laurels will be sat on, money, philosophy and ambition won't be forthcoming and it all goes sour again.

I think Chas and Dave had the best take.

Be specific about what you want. I do think that if there was a clear demand, such as 'we spend x on season tickets! The club should spend y% of income on players'. That could well be more effective than incoherent anger and the belief that the owners should sack themselves out of shame.

But his or her other point is even more important. There should be more fan representation in football. Pushing for that may be more interesting and productive. And then you quickly realise that the issue is bigger than Tottenham. People should be pushing for there to be no Chelseas, Man Citys or Newcastles. That clubs can't be bought and sold and used the way they are. And maybe giving fans more inputs or vetoes would help - along with effective regulation.

I know that the big clubs have long since migrated into international entities and are unmoored from domestic, homogeneous fanbases but there is still some ground there to be won.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I think Chas and Dave had the best take.

Be specific about what you want. I do think that if there was a clear demand, such as 'we spend x on season tickets! The club should spend y% of income on players'. That could well be more effective than incoherent anger and the belief that the owners should sack themselves out of shame.

But his or her other point is even more important. There should be more fan representation in football. Pushing for that may be more interesting and productive. And then you quickly realise that the issue is bigger than Tottenham. People should be pushing for there to be no Chelseas, Man Citys or Newcastles. That clubs can't be bought and sold and used the way they are. And maybe giving fans more inputs or vetoes would help - along with effective regulation.

I know that the big clubs have long since migrated into international entities and are unmoored from domestic, homogeneous fanbases but there is still some ground there to be won.

I can't believe anyone really thinks Levy allowing fan representation will not be one great big cosmetic and pointless exercise. And I don't think being specific, to someone who doesn't think they've done much wrong will go far either. He won't step down. Not until he sells the club of actually wants to. And i'm pretty sure your example demand (and I know it's just an example) won't cut the mustard either, it doesn't address the problem/issue, which as well all ought to know, is Daniel Levy. Sorry to disagree so much

Fan representation would only be even the slightest bit effective if it's done right so before i'd call on that in a serious way i'd like to see what the powers that be see that as looking like. Right now it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to Spurs. IMO natch

 

[Guernman]

Personally I don’t really have a problem with ENIC making money out of spurs. They’ve put 20+ years into us, I’d want a profit on it if I was them. My problem is the lack of direction over the years the money wasted over that time. on sacking managers, poor recruitment

we spend £200m+ on players over the summer windows of 2019-2020.
Only Sess and Hojberg are still part of the squad from those summers.

I personally don’t have a problem with ENIC continuing as owners but no way should Levy still be Chairman.
Every good company renews its CEO and board every 5 years. We are in desperate need of modernisation.

I wouldn't expect any owner not to want to make money from the club, however, whereas the successful clubs we wish to emulate have achieved this through footballing success, ENIC have done so purely in terms of real estate and infrastructure. Levy has certainly taken full advantage of his expertise and degree in Economics and Land Economy, shame his expertise doesn't extend to football though.

The plan was sold to fans as "building the infrastructure will mean more resources for the football team" (and let's not forget that we are a football team, not a real estate enterprise), but so far that hasn't really manifested post-stadium, at least not in the manner we would like. There is still time of course, but the leopard needs to change his spots, or get out of the (gilded) cage...

 

[DarwinSpur]

Maybe we should go for Agnelli. Juve have won loads.

Wait... is he in jail?

At least Levy's not stupid enough to get involved with anyone into dodgy stuff like that

 

[Spursfan1414]

I wouldn't expect any owner not to want to make money from the club, however, whereas the successful clubs we wish to emulate have achieved this through footballing success, ENIC have done so purely in terms of real estate and infrastructure. Levy has certainly taken full advantage of his expertise and degree in Economics and Land Economy, shame his expertise doesn't extend to football though.

The plan was sold to fans as "building the infrastructure will mean more resources for the football team" (and let's not forget that we are a football team, not a real estate enterprise), but so far that hasn't really manifested post-stadium, at least not in the manner we would like. There is still time of course, but the leopard needs to change his spots, or get out of the (gilded) cage...

This was addressed directly by the club in their statement. Can I ask what it is you’re not happy about? We’ve spent the 5th most in the league since the stadium opened, to me that’s about what I expect. The issue hasn’t been the spending, it’s been about transfers not working out.

We’re not City or United or Chelsea, that top 3 spending-wise are still levels above us and I don’t blame Levy for that. So I’d expect us to be somewhere between 4th and 6th in the long term (or 7th now Newcastle are around). So I don’t have an issue with the amount we’ve spent, particularly given we’re got a lot of expensive failed transfers as millstones around our neck. Tell me why you disagree, if you wouldn’t mind?

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

I think there is likely confusion all around here.

While its true that ENIC do not take dividends, its also true that they have not spent all of the "profits" on the team.

The bulk of the historical profits have gone back into the club in the form of investments in tangible assets.

In 2006 the club reported Tangible assets of £49M
In 2021 the club reported Tangible assets of £1.35B in tangible assets.


What ENIC has done is very common - particularly amongst the very wealthy. Instead of taking dividends from the club, which are immediately taxable, they have invested money back into the club in the form of the training ground, the stadium, and the surrounding real estate purchases. This has allowed their investment to grow tax-deferred for 20+ years.

So, don't mistake the notion that ENIC not taking dividends is tied to their investment in the football operations -its not where they are investing.

I agree, but I don't think the motivation is tax avoidance.

I strongly suspect their reasoning is this: They are an investment company. What's the point in taking money out of an investment company? Only if you believe the money is better off elsewhere. But they are doing astonishingly well financially, so where else would they put the cash to make more money and retain full control over it at the same time?

Well, we believe they could make even more money by building a better team, winning trophies and becoming a truly global AND successful club famous for winning things regularly.

They presumably think the risks involved in spending whatever that would take, say £500m at least if you include wages over a few years...realistically it could be significantly more...are too great compared with how the value is increasing as things are.

So I don't accuse them of stupidity. I accuse them of having different priorities from us. But we pay them, so we have a right to exercise our priorities.

I think the more we accuse them of stupidity, (and I know you're not doing that) the more they will believe that we simply don't understand what running a big business is about.

But we do.

The problem is we pay our ££££s every year not to make a top financial return, but for the fun and satisfaction of being part of a winning club. That will never be their first priority.

So they've had 20 years to get here, doing things their way, and making THFC a top-six side and a top-ten club in world wealth stakes. and enjoying a huge capital appreciation in the process. Well done them. Now let's change and take bigger risks, different risks, shift the gamble and accept that returns will become more volatile, don't go stupid but shift up a gear on the football side.

Find the people who can do that.

If that means a change of ownership, now is surely the optimum time to do it.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I agree, but I don't think the motivation is tax avoidance.

It's not tax avoidance - it will be paid eventually - its tax deferral. And, its a pretty common tool used by people who don't need to fund their lifestyle with earnings from investments.