The realism of a full rebuild

[BPR_U16]

Fatigue? Not sure about that it was the same positions making the same errors we've seen time and again under numerous managers. There is a real lack of quality at RWB, and CM and the drop off between Dier and Sanchez is substantial with what they are currently being asked to do imo. Davies had an off night but to be fair that's been a rarity since Conte came in. PEH just ran all over the place and I feel it's always the same in a two man midfield when Winks is in there. Winks was back to type last night for me. He just occupies positions, doesn't press and doesn't pick up runners. He's always in space even when we are out of possession, and to compensate(which he shouldn't) PEH just goes all headless chicken trying to cover too much ground.

The midfield space for Southampton was everywhere first half. They played between the lines, constantly switching between playing diagonal balls and straight ones so that Winks and PEH were nowehere. One covered the space the other moved all over the place, breaking nothing down.

They are not a good two. We countered it second half by a defender stepping slightly more forward.

As you say PEH is all over the place, but rarely does anything constructive, though it was his ball in for the own goal. His passing at present is limited, often misplaced or merely giving it back where it came from. It's why Bentancur coming off the bench was such a breath of fresh air. Sherwood can say what he likes, but the change-up there did not lose us the game.

WRT to Dier - we currently miss his presence in the air and his organisational ability. Will be interesting to see how he finally fits with Romero because I don't think we will have the funds for 2 defenders in Summer, when so may other positions still need attention.

 

[Aphex]

The one thing that concerns me a little is these out of contract / expiring players we are looking to bring in. They will have better offers. Kessie is clearly one and he’s being linked with Barcelona. So if this rebuild is reliant on these types of players saying yes to us, well a lot of our plans are up in the air.

We already saw in January we lost out on two targets in Diaz and Traore. This summer it could easily happen again.

So yes I’m optimistic and hopeful, but until we actually bring in these quality players to improve us, well it’s difficult to move away from the feeling that this is Spurs, and we will end up losing out and having to bring in second or their choice targets.

Anyway that’s all out of our control.

Another thing is people keep taking about Liverpool, but that was one of the most exceptional football rebuilding jobs we’ve seen in decades. They signed players that went on to become world class PL performers. They got it spot on in almost every key deal they did. Our rebuild was supposed to have started last summer and we signed Emerson and Gil which in hindsight look bizarre signings for different reasons.

Romero and Bentancur look good so far but it is early days on the latter. I really do hope he is quality because we can’t afford another dud. We can’t afford to get next summer wrong. There is no indication we will do what Liverpool did so successfully. Any club can rebuild, United have been trying to do it for years now and can’t get it right. All we have to go on is hope so far.

I just hope FP brings in more Romero’s and less Emerson’s otherwise we are screwed. Maybe Conte being here will be the difference, I’m positive that will be the case and he wouldn’t have brought in players like Emerson, but then that still leaves question marks on FP who is tasked with the rebuild.

 

[mpickard2087]

That's all well and fine. However one of the active positions we are looking to buy in was just bought by FP for £20-30m.

Yes he was bought for a different position, but he doesn't look good in any tbh. Its too early for Dejan of course but people look at Emerson and worry.

I have concerns over FP. The farce that was the manager search was a joke. His talent spotting and the fact the whole point of a DoF position is that the club has a transfer strategy so that managers can come and go and it shouldn't matter. Emerson is an example of how it shouldn't work with the tail wagging the dog. We all hope AC is in this long term, however it's not a long contract and should he leave we could see massive changes again as the next manager might want to play a different system.

We have all heard this before as you alluded too which is another reason and with all the above its reasonable if you ask me so could we have a bit more respect than we don't understand?

Ta

Absolutely. I made a big post about this last week, that the key is a long-term strategy. Fans in the short-term won't care, but really it's somewhat irrelevant whether we're "backing Conte" or "have a plan" now if we lurch in another direction every couple of years (or quicker!). We'll never have stability and be set up to sustain a good run/momentum.

Going from Poch football, to Mourinho football, to trying to get Nuno to do something different to that, to then going in another direction with Conte is barmy. And on the off chance we have any journalists browsing, if you ever get Levy or Paratici sat down for an interview this is the one question you should ask them to explain whatever bonkers rationale they had for it and don't let up till they give a full and frank answer. Any short term gain is going to be killed by the chaos of trying to transition the squad to another style of football. For us as a club, if we want to properly compete with some of the mega giant clubs, we've got to be run as smartly as possible - and if Conte (as we hope) lays the groundwork or even has some success in the next couple of years, who has any faith that we won't lurch off yet again in another direction with someone who sees the game differently?

As for Paratici, he definitely has question marks against him. Been here 5 mins and already added to that chaos through inconsistent choices. Conte was clearly down to him which is a feather in his cap, but fairly clear he's got all his eggs in one basket given the comedy chase we had for alternatives. He just comes across as another "transfer guy" who gets his kicks from doing deals. Maybe there is a place for him and his abilities on the recruitment side, but fairly clear to me he's overpromoted and should never be handling the whole of the football operations - a DOF for me should be far more wide ranging as a role, I see no evidence/ability he can instil and oversee a philosophy in the club and develop all areas and aspects, eg. playing style, academy, etc.

So yeah, make better choices long term, otherwise "the rebuild" will keep on happening.

 

[Metalhead]

Absolutely. I made a big post about this last week, that the key is a long-term strategy. Fans in the short-term won't care, but really it's somewhat irrelevant whether we're "backing Conte" or "have a plan" now if we lurch in another direction every couple of years (or quicker!). We'll never have stability and be set up to sustain a good run/momentum.

Going from Poch football, to Mourinho football, to trying to get Nuno to do something different to that, to then going in another direction with Conte is barmy. And on the off chance we have any journalists browsing, if you ever get Levy or Paratici sat down for an interview this is the one question you should ask them to explain whatever bonkers rationale they had for it and don't let up till they give a full and frank answer. Any short term gain is going to be killed by the chaos of trying to transition the squad to another style of football. For us as a club, if we want to properly compete with some of the mega giant clubs, we've got to be run as smartly as possible - and if Conte (as we hope) lays the groundwork or even has some success in the next couple of years, who has any faith that we won't lurch off yet again in another direction with someone who sees the game differently?

As for Paratici, he definitely has question marks against him. Been here 5 mins and already added to that chaos through inconsistent choices. Conte was clearly down to him which is a feather in his cap, but fairly clear he's got all his eggs in one basket given the comedy chase we had for alternatives. He just comes across as another "transfer guy" who gets his kicks from doing deals. Maybe there is a place for him and his abilities on the recruitment side, but fairly clear to me he's overpromoted and should never be handling the whole of the football operations - a DOF for me should be far more wide ranging as a role, I see no evidence/ability he can instil and oversee a philosophy in the club and develop all areas and aspects, eg. playing style, academy, etc.

So yeah, make better choices long term, otherwise "the rebuild" will keep on happening.

I think that was the point of the original post to a certain extent. People are kicking off because there isn't enough visible change but it may take time to see that change. It probably sounds trite to blame all the ills of modern football fandom on FM but there is definitely an impatience in football that wasn't there 20 or 30 years ago.

 

[Spurslove]

The one thing that concerns me a little is these out of contract / expiring players we are looking to bring in. They will have better offers. Kessie is clearly one and he’s being linked with Barcelona. So if this rebuild is reliant on these types of players saying yes to us, well a lot of our plans are up in the air.

We already saw in January we lost out on two targets in Diaz and Traore. This summer it could easily happen again.

So yes I’m optimistic and hopeful, but until we actually bring in these quality players to improve us, well it’s difficult to move away from the feeling that this is Spurs, and we will end up losing out and having to bring in second or their choice targets.

Anyway that’s all out of our control.

Another thing is people keep taking about Liverpool, but that was one of the most exceptional football rebuilding jobs we’ve seen in decades. They signed players that went on to become world class PL performers. They got it spot on in almost every key deal they did. Our rebuild was supposed to have started last summer and we signed Emerson and Gil which in hindsight look bizarre signings for different reasons.

Romero and Bentancur look good so far but it is early days on the latter. I really do hope he is quality because we can’t afford another dud. We can’t afford to get next summer wrong. There is no indication we will do what Liverpool did so successfully. Any club can rebuild, United have been trying to do it for years now and can’t get it right. All we have to go on is hope so far.

I just hope FP brings in more Romero’s and less Emerson’s otherwise we are screwed. Maybe Conte being here will be the difference, I’m positive that will be the case and he wouldn’t have brought in players like Emerson, but then that still leaves question marks on FP who is tasked with the rebuild.

I do agree with much of your post and I think most Spurs fans will have very similar concerns about our recruitment over the next few years. I think it's only fair to say that there is no proven modus operandi when it comes to recruiting new players, and apart from the two financially doped clubs to whom none of the rules apply, no club can say they get it right every time.

Even Chelsea and City screw up from time to time but the main difference with those two is that from a financial perspective, it doesn't bother them.

Yes, it looks like we may have screwed up a few of our recent signings, Ndombele being the most obvious, and from a financial point of view, yes that bloody hurts. Somehow, we need to re-evaluate our entire method of recruiting, and although there are no guarantees, I think generally, we've learned our lesson.

The key factors are three-fold I think.

Firstly, January traditionally represents a very hard, frantic and very short window of opportunity for all clubs.

Secondly, I think overall we've done well (given the above) to have brought in two excellent prospects, one on loan with an option to buy, and the other a straight forward purchase.

And thirdly, the idea of bringing in players on a loan with the option (or obligation) to buy, could very well be a major benefit to us, especially as you say, as we have on board one of the world's greatest managers and coaching teams.

I'm no expert, but I believe loans can be terminated far easier than it would be to sell a player to another club, who's clearly not up to the job (i.e Ndombele).

.

 

[jimbo]

I'm a bit surprised at some of the general feeling around the importance placed on the Champion's League for signing players. I thought it was important too, when we'd never qualified for it. Then we did, and the difference it made was pretty minimal and other factors usurped it as a reason for our unattractiveness to a player. Now we're out of it again it seems to have resurrected as a reason for pessimism.

Personally I think it's just one factor and it's importance is overstated. Wages and potential for winning stuff will always be more important in my opinion, and on wages we've already closed the gap we used to have. We also have factors in our favour, like the Premier League, London, excellent facilities, world class coach that add up to more than merely making up the numbers in the Champion's League. Now, if we were percieved as having a realistic chance of winning the CL or the PL then that would make a bigger difference in my opinion. Conte's record and reputation will be an influence we've not really had before either.

As it is now, I don't see CL qualification as being a make or break factor in attracting players. A few clubs above us may have greater pull (and will do until we can prove ourselves realistic challengers) but we're still an appealing choice without CL over many, many more clubs for a variety of factors unrelated to which European competition we're in next season.

 

[matthew.absurdum]

I'm a bit surprised at some of the general feeling around the importance placed on the Champion's League for signing players. I thought it was important too, when we'd never qualified for it. Then we did, and the difference it made was pretty minimal and other factors usurped it as a reason for our unattractiveness to a player. Now we're out of it again it seems to have resurrected as a reason for pessimism.

Personally I think it's just one factor and it's importance is overstated. Wages and potential for winning stuff will always be more important in my opinion, and on wages we've already closed the gap we used to have. We also have factors in our favour, like the Premier League, London, excellent facilities, world class coach that add up to more than merely making up the numbers in the Champion's League. Now, if we were percieved as having a realistic chance of winning the CL or the PL then that would make a bigger difference in my opinion. Conte's record and reputation will be an influence we've not really had before either.

As it is now, I don't see CL qualification as being a make or break factor in attracting players. A few clubs above us may have greater pull (and will do until we can prove ourselves realistic challengers) but we're still an appealing choice without CL over many, many more clubs for a variety of factors unrelated to which European competition we're in next season.

I think the case like Luis Diaz did have an effect on our feeling. Nevertheless, even if we had the CL place at this moment, we are still arguably less attractive than the likes of Liverpool...

 

[vegassd]

As it is now, I don't see CL qualification as being a make or break factor in attracting players. A few clubs above us may have greater pull (and will do until we can prove ourselves realistic challengers) but we're still an appealing choice without CL over many, many more clubs for a variety of factors unrelated to which European competition we're in next season.

I agree. It would obviously be an extra carrot to attract players, but I would imagine there would still be players who didn't fancy us regardless, and players who have dreamt of playing for United/Arsenal/whoever regardless of CL status.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if a player signs a 5 year deal with a CL club, there is no guarantee that all those 5 years will see CL action, particularly in our league. Like you say, it will be one of many factors that goes into a players thinking, but they will get plenty of advice about the ups and downs of different clubs.

In Paratici's latest video he mentioned not getting into the meat of the planning for summer until late in the season. I got the impression that they have a general overview of what they want to do, but they are also very aware that things can change a lot in a couple of months and groundwork can quickly disappear. Our CL qualification will likely be a part of that but plenty of options regardless of our CL status I reckon, as well as the progress of all the loaned players.

 

[Cochise]

I think most people expected a lot less when Conte came in. Then we went on this run, picking up points and looking like we could get top four, all the while the SSN pundits are talking up Conte leaving if we don't win anything this year.

That is the heart of the matter. If the noises coming out of every corner were saying "it's not about this year" then most fans would just be happy to see progress on the field. With so much negative press re-inforcing our pessimism, the fans are going to be like this until Conte signs a longer deal.

 

[GioW]

I think most people expected a lot less when Conte came in. Then we went on this run, picking up points and looking like we could get top four, all the while the SSN pundits are talking up Conte leaving if we don't win anything this year.

That is the heart of the matter. If the noises coming out of every corner were saying "it's not about this year" then most fans would just be happy to see progress on the field. With so much negative press re-inforcing our pessimism, the fans are going to be like this until Conte signs a longer deal.

Agree with this, plus It's definitely intensified by the fact that top 4 is there for the taking.

Pretty sure Klopp finished 7th first season. Trix is bang on but it's so hard to shake the feeling that getting 4th would massively speed the process up

 

[chinaman]

When people talk about a painful rebuild, shouldn't it be painless? Getting out those you don't want and bringing in those you do want sounds positive to me.

It's painful to Baldy to reach for his pocket.

 

[Spurslove]

I'm a bit surprised at some of the general feeling around the importance placed on the Champion's League for signing players. I thought it was important too, when we'd never qualified for it. Then we did, and the difference it made was pretty minimal and other factors usurped it as a reason for our unattractiveness to a player. Now we're out of it again it seems to have resurrected as a reason for pessimism.

Personally I think it's just one factor and it's importance is overstated. Wages and potential for winning stuff will always be more important in my opinion, and on wages we've already closed the gap we used to have. We also have factors in our favour, like the Premier League, London, excellent facilities, world class coach that add up to more than merely making up the numbers in the Champion's League. Now, if we were percieved as having a realistic chance of winning the CL or the PL then that would make a bigger difference in my opinion. Conte's record and reputation will be an influence we've not really had before either.

As it is now, I don't see CL qualification as being a make or break factor in attracting players. A few clubs above us may have greater pull (and will do until we can prove ourselves realistic challengers) but we're still an appealing choice without CL over many, many more clubs for a variety of factors unrelated to which European competition we're in next season.

I do agree with the general tone of your post. Wouldn't we all love to know exactly how much influence players' agents have on their choices and the timing of those choices as to who they move to. I'm sure hundreds of players agents have a secret network with which they generate real and bullshit discussions together, to try and get the best deals for their clients (and of course, themselves too in the process).

I'm sure one of the first questions on a players mind when considering a move to an EPL club is 'Are they in or are they at least threatening, a Champions League place'? Every player wants to play at the highest possible level.

Another very important question on their minds has to be 'How much would I be worth to them regarding wages'?

I've bolded your sentence (above) because I couldn't agree more with it. Our world class infra-structure and our world class manager are a major selling point to many players around the world, possibly without any guarantees of CL football.

I think it's pretty obvious to ever player and agent, that Conte wouldn't be here if he thought we had no chance of securing a precious CL place, and that's very much the case. The club is (despite what some might believe) highly ambitious and so too are Conte and Fabio.

We've had a short glimpse of what can be achieved regarding bringing players in within the 4 weeks of January, but I do expect much more activity come summer, both incoming and outgoing. Both are equally important to us.

.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

It's painful to Baldy to reach for his pocket.

Why? Just why?

What is it with this place having an issue with people's appearance?

Dele had too much hair, or the wrong type of hair. Levy & Lewis don't have enough hair.

It seems there's only a bunch of perfect looking supermodels that post on here.

 

[beats1]

Of course we've started a rebuild. Since the summer 13 or so players have been sold/loaned. Yes alot of the first 11 are pretty much the same but we needed to get rid of the deadwood first so we can afford the quality players that will improve our current starting 11

A Rebuild tends to constitute starting from fresh, we aren't doing that

The term "trust the process" which is now part of football culture comes from the 76ers, when they purposely got rid of all their assets in exchange for future potential assests

We are trying to sustain the squad whilst bring in fresh blood. We are literally having a squad refresh

A rebuild would be selling Kane, Son, Lucas, Lloris, Dier and etc. in order to get young talented players, who may have 2 or 3 seasons to get our goal before adding more talent.

The season Mourinho joined we got rid 12 players, we brought him to work in new guys and it failed and the next season we said he needed a rebuild.

Arsenal have had a rebuild in which their squad is unrecognisable from the squad 2 seasons ago. We are wanting to keep the same core we had for years; Dier, Son, Kane, Lloris and etc.

 

[Trix]

A Rebuild tends to constitute starting from fresh, we aren't doing that

The term "trust the process" which is now part of football culture comes from the 76ers, when they purposely got rid of all their assets in exchange for future potential assests

We are trying to sustain the squad whilst bring in fresh blood. We are literally having a squad refresh

A rebuild would be selling Kane, Son, Lucas, Lloris, Dier and etc. in order to get young talented players, who may have 2 or 3 seasons to get our goal before adding more talent.

The season Mourinho joined we got rid 12 players, we brought him to work in new guys and it failed and the next season we said he needed a rebuild.

Arsenal have had a rebuild in which their squad is unrecognisable from the squad 2 seasons ago. We are wanting to keep the same core we had for years; Dier, Son, Kane, Lloris and etc.

You can rebuild your house without removing or replacing the foundations. I know this because I've litterally done just that.

 

[dudu]

Why? Just why?

What is it with this place having an issue with people's appearance?

Dele had too much hair, or the wrong type of hair. Levy & Lewis don't have enough hair.

It seems there's only a bunch of perfect looking supermodels that post on here.

Cos, you know, its HAIRLAIRIOUS

 

[Spurslove]

A Rebuild tends to constitute starting from fresh, we aren't doing that

The term "trust the process" which is now part of football culture comes from the 76ers, when they purposely got rid of all their assets in exchange for future potential assests

We are trying to sustain the squad whilst bring in fresh blood. We are literally having a squad refresh

A rebuild would be selling Kane, Son, Lucas, Lloris, Dier and etc. in order to get young talented players, who may have 2 or 3 seasons to get our goal before adding more talent.

The season Mourinho joined we got rid 12 players, we brought him to work in new guys and it failed and the next season we said he needed a rebuild.

Arsenal have had a rebuild in which their squad is unrecognisable from the squad 2 seasons ago. We are wanting to keep the same core we had for years; Dier, Son, Kane, Lloris and etc.

Yes, because they're our best players. Like you intimated, it would be nothing short of insanity to sell off our crown jewels. We have to 'refresh' the others to suit our existing finest. The scum desperately needed a 'rebuild' but we only need to 'refresh'.

.

 

[beats1]

You can rebuild your house without removing or replacing the foundations. I know this because I've litterally done just that.

But in a sporting term, rebuilding is accepting that we are prepared to lose to develop the talent we have to be competitive for the ultimate goal in 4-5 years

A proper rebuild would have been selling Kane and Son as in 3 years time they will be at the end of their prime and buying someone like David, Isak or Vlahovic in the summer

We're keeping the shell of the house and renovating not tearing it down

You rebuild to be competitive for the title in 3 years, Kane will be 31 and Son will be 30. Already you're looking to replace those players as they are near the end of their prime

 

[Trix]

But in a sporting term, rebuilding is accepting that we are prepared to lose to develop the talent we have to be competitive for the ultimate goal in 4-5 years

A proper rebuild would have been selling Kane and Son as in 3 years time they will be at the end of their prime and buying someone like David, Isak or Vlahovic in the summer

We're keeping the shell of the house and renovating not tearing it down

You rebuild to be competitive for the title in 3 years, Kane will be 31 and Son will be 30. Already you're looking to replace those players as they are near the end of their prime

It's widely thought SAF rebuilt utd 3 times during his tenure. At which point did he sell all of his best players in one window and start from scratch? In his most notable rebuild he didn't move on Giggs Scholes or Neville, and they went on to play well into their 30's for United.

American sports teams are run and managed completely different. No point in trying to compare football to sports with no relegation, and a transfer system that is worlds apart.

 

[ripley]

Absolutely. I made a big post about this last week, that the key is a long-term strategy. Fans in the short-term won't care, but really it's somewhat irrelevant whether we're "backing Conte" or "have a plan" now if we lurch in another direction every couple of years (or quicker!). We'll never have stability and be set up to sustain a good run/momentum.

Going from Poch football, to Mourinho football, to trying to get Nuno to do something different to that, to then going in another direction with Conte is barmy. And on the off chance we have any journalists browsing, if you ever get Levy or Paratici sat down for an interview this is the one question you should ask them to explain whatever bonkers rationale they had for it and don't let up till they give a full and frank answer. Any short term gain is going to be killed by the chaos of trying to transition the squad to another style of football. For us as a club, if we want to properly compete with some of the mega giant clubs, we've got to be run as smartly as possible - and if Conte (as we hope) lays the groundwork or even has some success in the next couple of years, who has any faith that we won't lurch off yet again in another direction with someone who sees the game differently?

As for Paratici, he definitely has question marks against him. Been here 5 mins and already added to that chaos through inconsistent choices. Conte was clearly down to him which is a feather in his cap, but fairly clear he's got all his eggs in one basket given the comedy chase we had for alternatives. He just comes across as another "transfer guy" who gets his kicks from doing deals. Maybe there is a place for him and his abilities on the recruitment side, but fairly clear to me he's overpromoted and should never be handling the whole of the football operations - a DOF for me should be far more wide ranging as a role, I see no evidence/ability he can instil and oversee a philosophy in the club and develop all areas and aspects, eg. playing style, academy, etc.

So yeah, make better choices long term, otherwise "the rebuild" will keep on happening.

Do you remember when Levy first took over and he gave an interview and stated (and I paraphrase) that he could not understand how teams chopped and changed managers (and styles) and players ended up losing their value?
I think Levy should be grilled over & over on this point and asked if he's now understood.