The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

[Bus-Conductor]

I said they weren't stylistically similar, so I'm not sure where we disagree. Modric is a metronomic pivot, Dembele is also a pivot but uses strength (holding up the ball and drawing opposition players to him), power and a short burst of pace (to create space for himself to lay it off to a player already on the move now moving into a zone un-or underoccupied. Where his uniqueness really comes into play is his ability to also act as a kind of target man when we're probing on the edge of the box. Many's the time an attack out wide has petered out and it'll be worked into Dembele on the edge of the D who either does his holding up/drawing in trick before playing a triangle that ends with the ball going back out wide or into the channel or sometimes he even switches play from one flank to the other all while pulling the defence all over the place. Again, its not about how they do it but about the effect that they exert. Both act as a major fulcrum of the transition.

I think people often focus on the wrong thing when Dier and Wanyama play together, they think it doesn't work because both are defensive. That isn't quite right, for me. Wanyama has more ability and mobility than that. What has changed in that dynamic is we no longer have the pivot, the player taking the ball in, drawing players to him, opening big areas for players to run into. Wanyama doesn't like playing with his back to go so seldom finds himself able to offer us that pivot transition. Instead when he receives the ball and can't see a pass he tries to run into the area Dembele would be trying to get the opposition to vacate.

I think where we disagree is in labelling Dembele as "good" for transition. I think he's good for ball retention, but not very good for transition. Luckily we have Eriksen, who drops into those 2/3 areas and plays like a defacto CM at times and gets us moving. What we could really do with is a player who can do that and be positionally dynamic and defensively sound too (not easy I know) which is why players like Tolisso and Keita are on our radar I guess. But also why we all hope Winks and Onomah get more game time next year. Players that are good for ball retention but also better for quicker transition.

Interesting that you single out Wanyama in the Dier/Wanyama axis, because I think Dier is much more of a problem in any CM we play, and I'd happily never see him there again. He's more uncomfortable than Wanyama receiving the ball under any kind of pressure (inc back to goal), meaning he hinders our ability to play out from the press, can't go past a player with the ball (like Wanyama can sometimes and Dembele/Winks and Onomah all can) and hardly ever plays a progressive/incisive quick transition enabling pass or takes risks with his passing and has a habit of retreating to the back line, dragging the team backwards 10 yards the first sign of a bit of pressure.

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

all this talk of Dembele in the youth thread? You lot should take it to teh Daily ITK discussion..

 

[DCSPUR]

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...-lessons-celebrating-emerging-stars-too-early

Nothing that hasn't been said, but an interesting read.

A key paragraph that Edwards and many, many others would do well to reflect on:

Over time, Drenthe’s unwillingness to bend himself to the game and adapt to situations which weren’t to his liking denied him the future his talent should have given him access to. More importantly, his imperfections didn’t appear until long after the watching world had conclusively determined - within reason - that he was heading for immortality.

Professional football is a unique world and it’s impossible to fully prepare someone for life within that bubble - or to anticipate how they’ll react until they're actually inside. As he later said: “I was living in a different world. And I realise I have ruined it all myself. I can’t believe I blew it at Everton, one of the most fantastic clubs in the Premier League. My attitude and poor mentality are the reasons I ruined my career there.”


Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...-stars-too-early?page=0,1#4XH4mv2YSHKIZM21.99

 

[Gb160]

Anyone watching the England u21s?
Predictable and boring so far, don't think we've even managed a shot.

 

[EQP]

Does anyone rate Patrick Roberts here? I know some youth watchers wanted him to sign for us when he was at Fulham. With all the players that City are stacking up and talk of Pep wanting to sell Roberts, I wonder if we should look to him as an option.

 

[sammyj]

Impressive

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Does anyone rate Patrick Roberts here? I know some youth watchers wanted him to sign for us when he was at Fulham. With all the players that City are stacking up and talk of Pep wanting to sell Roberts, I wonder if we should look to him as an option.

Him and Dembele were fantastic for Fulham at youth level. I believe it was Roberts who scored a hat trick against us in the Youth Cup at Dagenham and it was against a good Spurs side. Both looked real talents and I think they would both add something to our squad

 

[dontsalebale]

I agree he's not a playmaker but I really disagree with the rest. In terms of facilitating transition and providing metronomic qualities Dembele and Modric are not Really alike. Dembele is very reliable with his passing but that's where any comparison ends, Modric is far, far quicker, incisive and progressive with his passing whereas Dembele often holds onto the ball much too long and is much more risk averse and conservative with his passing than Modric.

.
Dembele is pretty unique in that unlike most cm's he will strength dribble a lot, but I don't really think he facilitates quick transition, Modric does.

Winks and Onomah are probably better for that than Dembele.

Dembers and Victor are about brut strength and ball retention. Having the ball more and pushing the team further up the pitch and staying their. Whether they pivot or do a pirouette is academic. i realise you will not allow yourself to see this so seek solace in jargon. Luckily Poch knows this as that is his modus operandi

 

[spurs9]

Does anyone rate Patrick Roberts here? I know some youth watchers wanted him to sign for us when he was at Fulham. With all the players that City are stacking up and talk of Pep wanting to sell Roberts, I wonder if we should look to him as an option.

We don't need anymore AMs with potential, as we have Edwards & Shashoua coming through. We should only bring in an AM if the can contribute to a good level straight away and I don't think Roberts could.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Dembers and Victor are about brut strength and ball retention. Having the ball more and pushing the team further up the pitch and staying their. Whether they pivot or do a pirouette is academic. i realise you will not allow yourself to see this so seek solace in jargon. Luckily Poch knows this as that is his modus operandi

 

[littlewilly]

Dembers and Victor are about brut strength and ball retention. Having the ball more and pushing the team further up the pitch and staying their. Whether they pivot or do a pirouette is academic. i realise you will not allow yourself to see this so seek solace in jargon. Luckily Poch knows this as that is his modus operandi

They have an underarm problem?

 

[Pizza]

I really like this kid. I liked him two years ago too.

Everyone is raving about Onomah now but I think Oakley-Boothe will be way better.

 

[IGSpur]

I might be one of those. I have said he, and Poch working with him, should strive to be busier, but its not to do with body language or making it look like he is busting a gut in the actions he does - its the number of these 'actions' that I think he could up. The compilations that were put together of his performances show that he had some really good moments, but between these moments he often went three, four, even five minutes without really seeing the ball. Now there are some factors in this like the youth games being more end to end and less patience with the ball, and individuals like Lookman, Solanke, DCL, and even our own KWP often choosing to go themselves and try and force play rather than retaining the ball, but he never managed to completely dominate and take a game by the scruff of its neck, which I feel given the form he was showing was within his potential. It's not completely fair to compare players, but Winks for comparison is always looking for work. He'll make a pass and then immediately be thinking where he can get involved next. Onomah might never stylistically look as obviously busy and 'worker bee' like, but he can still be busy with his languid style and making himself available to be involved in the play. Josh has always been a bit stop-start, and at senior level in a cm2, where the demands on your all-round game are often huge, not sure he will be afforded that luxury.

That might all read like I'm on a total downer about him, which isn't my intention... He should be proud of his tournament and showed the talent and potential he has. Good technically, can carry the ball and drive play forward, and above all almost always made the correct/smart choice (which really set him apart from the others). It's more looking ahead and to what he needs to do, and its easily within his grasp to do it, in order to make that leap from youth to top level senior football.

Very fair post. I feel that kind of development will come in time, but he will need that experience in the PL to really develop it, if he isn't going to go on loan, and I think he is at a level now where he will do a good job in PL. What you said above will come though. I still think his style will annoy a lot of people who misread it. Went looking for old posts in 2014 and can't find it but remember I said something like,Onomah frustrates me as I feel he should be doing a lot more or plays within himself. About a year down the line I accepted that's how he plays even when I have seen him run around like a blue arsed fly. And I have seen him control games and dominate and he still moves like Yaya Toure. There is still plenty of development to do, but like you say he doesn't appear busy like Winks so he will find it harder to integrate and endear himself to fans.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...-lessons-celebrating-emerging-stars-too-early

Nothing that hasn't been said, but an interesting read.

Like you say it's all obvious and noone disagrees, but for me it just sounds like readying more excuses not to give youngsters a chance post u20 WC. We know they have personal lives and they could have anything going in their life and they have to adjust but these things don't seem to affect Dutch, French or German leagues like they affect ours.

What I took from that article again was that Turgott one of the standouts from that tournament looked better than all other players, yet because he played for a PL club he never found his chance, and has fallen down the league. What would have happened had West Ham given him chances at 19/20 instead of buying players like Sakho or any amount of garbage they've purchased.

I will be interested to see what happens with Edwards and Onomah. Poch has already said that if he had Dembele at 18 he would have turned him into a world class player but unfortunately didn't have them both at that time.

Fortunately we have Onomah who at 17 Poch called special numerous times and had him in the first team squad, and he also has a player he has likened to Messi, in Edwards. Poch has the opportunity to prove his point and show what he can do, but I just know that if/when these players don't get their chances the blame will be placed on their door, and their attitude will be questioned. This isn't purely a Poch thing btw it's an English football thing, but at what point would the blame ever be placed on the manager. The managers word is always taken as truth or trusted as they see them in training, and we only ever see what they do and not what doesn't happen, so it's hard for anyone to argue what would have happened if different decisions were made, but the amount of times a manager in the PL has talked up a young player, but failed to bring them through only for the media to then right how they never have the right mentality is frustrating. Surely it can't happen all the time, otherwise the managers wouldn't be promoting them or letting them train with the first team in the first place, and I can't imagine any young player gets that far and then thinks this is as far as I want to go in my career.

I feel those articles only serve to reinforce the risk averse method we have to developing young players in this country, and just when there is all this hype it just makes ready made reasons for when they eventually don't get their chance

 

[IGSpur]

We don't need anymore AMs with potential, as we have Edwards & Shashoua coming through. We should only bring in an AM if the can contribute to a good level straight away and I don't think Roberts could.

I don't know. I still really rate Roberts. And where people say there is no value in the market, if we didn't get Lemar , if we could get Roberts for anything under 20m considering he was bought for 12m, I think he'd be ready to step into the PL now and do damage. I'd have him over N'Koudou for example and I think he'd do a better job. Think it'd be a really shrewd signing. The fact he has played in some league football helps the case. Would rather him than Dembele from there.

 

[IGSpur]

I really like this kid. I liked him two years ago too.

Everyone is raving about Onomah now but I think Oakley-Boothe will be way better.

TOB at the moment is a quality player but is someone who shines surrounded by players of equal quality. He is less dominant and more risk averse than Onomah but arguably more versatile. I'd argue Onomah is ahead of TOB at the same age but when Onomah hasn't even established himself in first team yet to prove himself saying TOB will be way better doesn't really have much meaning at the moment

 

[EQP]

I don't know. I still really rate Roberts. And where people say there is no value in the market, if we didn't get Lemar , if we could get Roberts for anything under 20m considering he was bought for 12m, I think he'd be ready to step into the PL now and do damage. I'd have him over N'Koudou for example and I think he'd do a better job. Think it'd be a really shrewd signing. The fact he has played in some league football helps the case. Would rather him than Dembele from there.

I agree, I just watched a compilation youtube and even though its the SPL, he still looked a threat. Having him and Edwards as attacking mids would be fun to watch and I bet we wouldn't struggle to break down teams with both of them on the pitch.

 

[spurs9]

I don't know. I still really rate Roberts. And where people say there is no value in the market, if we didn't get Lemar , if we could get Roberts for anything under 20m considering he was bought for 12m, I think he'd be ready to step into the PL now and do damage. I'd have him over N'Koudou for example and I think he'd do a better job. Think it'd be a really shrewd signing. The fact he has played in some league football helps the case. Would rather him than Dembele from there.

IMO, he is nowhere near ready to play for a Top 4 PL team. Don't be fooled by his stats in Scotland, which are pretty good, but it is a dross league. Do you think he could challenge Eriksen, Alli, Son and Lamela?

I wouldn't want Celtic's Dembele either.

 

[EQP]

IMO, he is nowhere near ready to play for a Top 4 PL team. Don't be fooled by his stats in Scotland, which are pretty good, but it is a dross league. Do you think he could challenge Eriksen, Alli, Son and Lamela?

I wouldn't want Celtic's Dembele either.

I think he would be better of the bench than Sissoko or GKN and we need viable options that can come in and offer something else. I know he has pace, creativity and dribbling ability, things that Poch is looking for in attacking mids. I can imagine Poch can definitely help improve his defensive work rate. Plus it would be fun to see Roberts and Edwards playing on the same team.

 

[spurs9]

I think he would be better of the bench than Sissoko or GKN and we need viable options that can come in and offer something else. I know he has pace, creativity and dribbling ability, things that Poch is looking for in attacking mids. I can imagine Poch can definitely help improve his defensive work rate. Plus it would be fun to see Roberts and Edwards playing on the same team.

I don't think he would be much better at the moment TBH. He doesn't have a lot of pace, he has decent acceleration and quick feet though.

It would be more fun to see Edwards and Shashoua.

Any signings we make need to be able to have an instant impact IMO. We already have Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela & Edwards (assuming we get rid of Sissoko and GKN, which I hope we do), so only have room for 1 signing.

 

[Pizza]

TOB at the moment is a quality player but is someone who shines surrounded by players of equal quality. He is less dominant and more risk averse than Onomah but arguably more versatile. I'd argue Onomah is ahead of TOB at the same age but when Onomah hasn't even established himself in first team yet to prove himself saying TOB will be way better doesn't really have much meaning at the moment

wat?
It's an opinion. Forums exist for them.

Nothing you yourself say has much "meaning"; the same applies for everyone here.