The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

Bus-Conductor

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Maybe this would be bad or pointless but would it hurt to have a dedication thread on here about 1st Team Integration so that this thread can focus more on discussing ans evaluating the youth academy that thread, perhaps barely, can split off into more of that argument. This is one of my favorite threads on here but when that argument kicks off I ignore it because I know it will be 5 pages before it gets back on topic.

Player integration is a subject that merges and conflates with other debates and as such doesn't really need a thread of it's own. These players are already, effectively part of our squad, often part of the first team squad, and as such qualify to be discussed as "options" in normal conversations about who should get picked and why, or who we should buy and why.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Do you have a problem with Foyth now as well? Fucking hell.
Wind your neck in. My point is Foyth is an inexperienced player with potential but plenty of hurdles to overcome, never played in this league, doesn't speak the language, needs to adjust to the culture, learn the language etc etc. We seem happy to take this kind of gamble and give him minutes and starts - but less prepared to do it for KWP, who is also talented with potential but comes with none of the other hurdles to overcome.
 

THFCSPURS19

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Wind your neck in. My point is Foyth is an inexperienced player with potential but plenty of hurdles to overcome, never played in this league, doesn't speak the language, needs to adjust to the culture, learn the language etc etc. We seem happy to take this kind of gamble and give him minutes and starts - but less prepared to do it for KWP, who is also talented with potential but comes with none of the other hurdles to overcome.
Foyth speaks English mate.
 

Lilbaz

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Wind your neck in. My point is Foyth is an inexperienced player with potential but plenty of hurdles to overcome, never played in this league, doesn't speak the language, needs to adjust to the culture, learn the language etc etc. We seem happy to take this kind of gamble and give him minutes and starts - but less prepared to do it for KWP, who is also talented with potential but comes with none of the other hurdles to overcome.
i think if aurier or trip were injured kwp would have got more minutes. Toby has been out for a long time.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Again it’s for poch but as you say if he’s coaching them for years he will know if they are ready or if they are ready for a sustained period.

Atm imo only Onomah was no better option than Sissoko both don’t look good enough for us to play.

KWP looks like he could’ve but again imo only not sure if we had a injury to Trippier could’ve become our number one. He’s done a able job as third choice for both RB & LB.

Going forward it’ll only become harder and harder the more we progress the squad with imo only Sissoko & Llorente need cutting out.

I’m not going to go on this subject anymore as @Blake Griffin said it’s becoming tedious and ruining the thread.

But that's exactly the point, even if Onomah is "no better" than Sissoko as a CM, we could have saved 50m and just had Onomah, and then if Onomah actually was as bad as Sissoko as a CM, then bought somebody decent the next windows.

Personally I don't find it tedious, I think it's possibly the most relevant conversation we have in this thread, because if we aren't going to give the very best academy players some kind of realistic chance, we will cease to attract the best kids and the academy will become moribund.

The trouble for me is this ingrained mindset that integration is almost charity work, when the reality is clever integration is not only viable, but vital and brings important characteristics and skill sets to most sides. Against the possibility of buying a ready formed product, but one that does not know your ethos or systems, you have one less battle hardened but has been coached in your ethos and system daily for a long time. Ferguson knew this and he was the most successful coach England has seen. Van Gaal the same, one of the most successful club coaches. Even Guardiola in previous incarnations.
 
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BPR_U16

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anyway, as i said before, i hate getting involved in these discussions as it is ruining this thread - which is a shame as for the past few years it's been one of the best on the site but nowadays we can't even seem to get through a single page without the whole poch/1st team debate taking over.
100% agree with this sentiment
 

LeParisien

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That's fine, we all understand that. But not every player Spurs sign become elite players either, so all we would like is occasionally for the most talented and highest potential academy players to be given a fairer, and logical shot at succeeding or failing than some of those.

If we were buying DeBruyne's, Mbappe's and Neymar's it would be completely different, your argument would be water tight, but we are buying Njie's, Nkoudou's, Sissoko's, Aurier's and Foyth's who are equally as problematic (in varying ways and reasons) as giving minutes to a very promising kid who we've spent 10 years teaching to play the way we want them to play, who aren't going to need to learn a language or settle into a new culture and environment etc.

And for the record, I only love players who come through the academy that are good. I don't love the ones that aren't. I wish everyone would stop caveating every post about this topic with this silly line.
I think we all agree that there’s a balance to be struck. I agree with you wrt Sissoko and Onomah. However we are working off very limited information compared to Poch and his coaching staff so it’s hard to have too much conviction in our belief. After all he hasn’t been extraordinary at Villa.

Equally Marcus Edwards appears to have gaps in his game (attitude?) which means he hasn’t been picked at Norwich. Is there another wide forward he could have played instead of njie or nkoudou?

There are no easy answers. We don’t want to blow 30m on underwhelming players like Sissoko but we can’t shove in players who wouldn’t make championship teams...
 

LexingtonSpurs

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Maybe he fell out with another player at Sheff Utd then, strange, but good on him.
I wonder if its a simple explanation - two that sort of make sense: 1) Sheffield play 3 at the back, and CCV was not suited to that style, and, 2) I think Sheffield bought a CB in January - so it could be that they had approached Spurs about CCV, but were not able to reach an agreement, and when they bought a permanent replacement, there was no room for CCV to play.
 

coys200

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I wonder if its a simple explanation - two that sort of make sense: 1) Sheffield play 3 at the back, and CCV was not suited to that style, and, 2) I think Sheffield bought a CB in January - so it could be that they had approached Spurs about CCV, but were not able to reach an agreement, and when they bought a permanent replacement, there was no room for CCV to play.
Ipswich play 3 at back.
 

Blake Griffin

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DF: "Marcus Edwards is not so far away. He could be an option pretty soon, but not for tomorrow. He still has to improve some topics." #ncfc
also said they're looking at bringing him in after the next international break but could possibly be sooner, he cited strength and endurance as things they're working on and that he's only been training fully for the last two weeks.
 

IGSpur

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I honestly do not understand this hangup over whether Josh played CM in friendlies - and how it ties to Poch's deep-seated hatred for Josh, and Poch's intent on sabotaging Josh's career in the process.
I know you're exagerrating a point to make a point. All people have said is, managers are too risk averse. It's like when a clubs in a relegation battle you either go for our your Pardews and Allardyce's expereince know what you'll get, could still be rubbish but if it goes well you will at best get bottom half PL team. Or you take a risk and go for Marco Silva, Carvahal and even in our case Poch who wasn't LVG at the time and arguably was thought of less than DeBoer, could be a risk but then if it work swill pay off in spades. The old English managers aren't better than these young foregin ones, they're just safer. THe foreign ones get laughed at by the pundits until they start doing well. Even AVB was laughed at for using a clipboard then got our points record. We can buy decent players with big fees and wages, or we take a risk with a talented young buck who has his risks. I know who I think has a higher potential, but there is also more risk.

The annoying things about the Onomah situation is he has played in a somewhat CM role once. Just once, when he was 18, against Bakayoko and Moutinho and we won 4-1. Only once. Never again. Next season we lose to Monaco and Bakayoko goes for big money and Onomah is never seen again in that position. Even Chelsea fans are looking at RLC and thinking he would have been better than Bakayoko, rather than buying that player then thinking we should have used so and so. Wouldn't it make more sense to try out what you have got, and if doesn't work sell and buy elsewhere as we love to do

small margins.....if Winks hadn't had 2-3 bad injuries I think he'd be starting a lot of games for us now.
would give the discussion a different complection.
think that if Trippier had had a fantastic pre-season and looked the player he was last season AND now, Poch may have gambled on KWP.
And if Wanyama and Dembele hadn't been injured at the start of the season would WInks have been playing against Madrid et al? Would he have ended up with an England callup? Poch has done well with Winks,regardless of whether he could have been introduced sooner, played more, the fact is Winks has been given a genuine chance in the first team and is an actual option.. Winks has shown what he can do in the PL, he still needs to develop but Poch doesn't want to use him at this moment then that's fair enough. But he is a first team player and should be considered in the same way a first teamer is.

And therein lies the problem. The issue you have is that you are happy to castigate Poch for it just because you don't agree.
Isn't that what everyone does in every thread on this forum i.e. criticise Poch's decision making based on what they believe, despite Poch being a lot more knowledgeable and knowing the players a lot better. I'm sure you like most posters don't rate Sissoko, but Poch seems clearly rate him but it's wouldn't stop you voicing your opinion or suddenly thinking he is top quality.

The problem with that is “a lot of promise” does not mean “will become a player worthy of a top 4 club”. The number of English players who show a lot of promise is far greater than the number of players who could play for an elite club.
Everyone knows this. Either way, when English players aren't getting comparable chances to their foreign counterpart so you have no idea how well they would be doing were. We would most likely have similar depth in England to the other European nations

Spurs have not afaik sold or released a player who has gone on to become an elite player. Certainly not under Poch
I don't know what you consider elite, but it always seems when people make this comment a player needs to end up being World Class to show they deserved to be given a chance here. It's not like we're signing WC players, it's such a hard standard to reach for even the players we spend north of 25m on so I don't get the argument. Any player that eventually finds their way to top league football despite facing the the knock back of having to resettle at another club, surely should have been given a 'chance' in a cup game here or there. That would essentially make them at the level to have contributed to the squad, while simultaneously saving/making us money, to reinvest elsewhere.
 

IGSpur

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Maybe this would be bad or pointless but would it hurt to have a dedication thread on here about 1st Team Integration so that this thread can focus more on discussing ans evaluating the youth academy that thread, perhaps barely, can split off into more of that argument. This is one of my favorite threads on here but when that argument kicks off I ignore it because I know it will be 5 pages before it gets back on topic.
Could work. Then any derailing chat can be transferred over
 
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