Those deplorable managers..?!

[miles_64]

So Juande Ramos guides Real Madrid to a 6-1 win over Real Betis yesterday, a feat bettered by a certain Martin Jol whose side scuttle up to the top of the Bundesliga after a fantastic away win against Leverkusen. Firstly, congratulations to both :clap:. Secondly, where did it all go wrong?! Let's just hope we give Harry a bit of time!

 

[gibbs131]

What can I say? Who do you want to buy and sell today Mr Levy?

Another attacking midfielder? Okay..But make sure he can;t do anything apart from fancy shit with no end product? Okay!

Palacious is evidence that we are FINALLY starting to get it.

we need to remove the soft center of Spurs. And get rid of the party boys.

 

[Bing]

So Juande Ramos guides Real Madrid to a 6-1 win over Real Betis yesterday, a feat bettered by a certain Martin Jol whose side scuttle up to the top of the Bundesliga after a fantastic away win against Leverkusen. Firstly, congratulations to both :clap:. Secondly, where did it all go wrong?! Let's just hope we give Harry a bit of time!

Sad thing is we wont.


People are already lining up the next manager, talking about mournho or Harry doesnt have a clue.

Maybe its time we realised the problems may lie elsewhere. Its not always the managers fault. Arry is our third quality manager in the past three years and we are still shit. There's more to the problem than the manager. Im not 100% what it is but we cant keep going for the easy option, blaming the manager and then firing them thinking it will solve all out problems.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Jol couldn't get us higher than 5th & Ramos couldn't communicate with the players.

Harry on the other hand is the dogs bollox and when he tells them to 'go out there and fuckin run around alot' instantly get his in depth and tactical message across!!

Both Jol and Ramos are just being lucky at this moment. Harry is clearly a much better manager than both of themEek

 

[Adam456]

Let's not panic quite yet. We've got rid of the DOF role because that's we think it's why 2 top managers have failed. Let's see what happens

 

[Bing]

Let's not panic quite yet. We've got rid of the DOF role because that's we think it's why 2 top managers have failed. Let's see what happens

Its worth keeping in mind that we have just had our best transfer window in years as well. Defoe, Keane, Palacios and Cuddicini. That alone says we are on the right track imo.

 

[RussellYid]

Jol should NEVER have left this club. It's all I have to add to this thread without going over old ground...

... Just one more thing. I hope they both pick up their respective league titles this week.

 

[myhartlane]

Totally agree with the sentiments about Jol and Ramos but NOT HR. I wish him all the best for the rest of this season but I hope we then get a proper world class manager who we can keep for the long term.

 

[davros]

Totally agree with the sentiments about Jol and Ramos but NOT HR. I wish him all the best for the rest of this season but I hope we then get a proper world class manager who we can keep for the long term.

And if HR manages to get us into Europe via the league in his first two full seasons in charge, plus maybe even some silverware, would you want him to stay on? My bet is that, if that were to happen, people would be calling for his head saying, "he'll never break the top 4". We've had a mental couple of years and I would really like to see us give a manager some time to settle into his role and have a chance to achieve something. I thought, naively as it turned out, that Jol would be with us for years. Then Ramos - how could that possibly go wrong? Now Redknapp. How and when will this end? Will we get lucky with the new guy? Whoever he is I am sure he'll want to build his own team so there will be yet more busy transfer windows and transitional periods. Redknapp is the man at the moment. Let's give the guy a chance to pick up the pieces of our shattered side, because we really were in a mess when he came along. We have a stronger team (for the league games) now, and are out of the relegation zone, which is a start. Next season perhaps a decent cup run, maybe even Wembley again, and a top half finish. After that aiming for a European place. It takes time and patience.

That said, if Mourinho came knocking then I'd jizz in my pants.

 

[stemark44]

Can't blame the chairman,its the players that are at fault and the people that bought them.
Roy Hodgson is no managerial genius nor is David Moyles but they can spot a decent player who will do a good job in their team.
I look at our squad and can still see a load of players who are just not good enough and who don't have the right work ethic!
The amount of money we have spent balanced against the quality of players we have is an absolute disgrace.
Harry can't be blamed either because he inherited this team and it will take him a while to sort the team out and replace the deadwood.

 

[VancouverSpurs]

Let's be honest here. Why Ramos is succeeding in Spain but failed so miserably with us could be down to a whole range of factors. Ultimately, I think that he's just much more comfortable in Spain where he's not constantly pestered about language, culture or his communication style. He just seems much more suited to that country. Also, let's also be honest about the fact that he HAD to be fired after the start we had. He had completely lost the plot.

Jol is another matter completely. I actually truly think that he will return to us one of these days. I think it's fantastic that he's gaining experience in Germany and developing his skills further. I only hope that we can allow Harry to complete his contract here, give us some stability and then we'll think about what next.

A personal gripe of mine is this mantra about cleaning out the deadwood. I simply refuse to believe that someone like Bentley has just mysteriously forgotten how to play well. I think Harry's on the right track when he says that the mentality of this club needs to change. We need to realise that talent and work ethic should be inseparable. If there's a break in that link (as I think there is now at Spurs) then it leads each manager to think he has to clean the slate and bring in his own guys. If he sees that there are talented AND hard-working players willing to do whatever job is required, then he won't think he has to clean them all out.

I think more than anything, the revolving door of managers has cost us in terms of our personality/mentality as a club. When Jol was here at least the players knew what they were about, what our identity as a club was. Harry's trying to re-establish that and let's hope he does it quickly.

 

[dontcallme]

A good manager can only be successful in the right environment where the board gives him control to do what he believes is necessary. Jol has said he has this at Hamburg and I believe he had it with FA as DOF. With Comolli it wasn't working. Ramos knows the Spanish league inside out, given time he might have been a success at The Lane but given time he could also have gotten us relegated.

Harry Redknapp has power and responsibility now and has bought in his own coaches and can buy who he wants in the transfer market.

As for where it went wrong for our last two managers:

Jol + Arnesen = worked
Jol + Comolli = didn't work

Ramos wanted to make huge changes too quickly and he needed immediate success to get support as he had taken over a decent team who had performed well in the last 2 seasons. At Real Madrid things are likely to be close to how he wants things anyway.

 

[miles_64]

I think Harry's on the right track when he says that the mentality of this club needs to change. We need to realise that talent and work ethic should be inseparable. If there's a break in that link (as I think there is now at Spurs) then it leads each manager to think he has to clean the slate and bring in his own guys.

Picking up this point, do you think that a player like Palacios shows the way and instills a better work ethic in the team or perhaps in reality, many other players aren't all that fussed that he highlights their lack of effort?

 

[tommyt]

He's managing Real Madrid FFS, not Spurs. Lets not get all delusional, they are a quality team.

 

[sunnydelight786]

He's managing Real Madrid FFS, not Spurs. Lets not get all delusional, they are a quality team.

So by that reckoning anything Ramos achieves over there does not count as it's Madrids divine right to win every game and opposing teams roll over and die for them right...?

He fluked it at Seville too as the DOF done all the hard work for him by bringing in all them world class players and all Ramos had to do was pick them right...?

The true Ramos was the one at Spurs, yes?:roll:

 

[VancouverSpurs]

I think that Palacios does show the right blend of talent and work ethic. I think it honestly is just about being a bit of a hard-ass on guys like Bentley, Jenas or Huddlestone. Just show them that the sort of lazy showings that may have been accepted in the past because "this is Spurs" or "they contribute in other ways" are not acceptable anymore. We can only afford to have one or two players of such exceptional talent that coast defensively (I even feel wrong saying that! I think all players should be made to be responsible defensively).

Thus, guys like Jenas and Huddlestone, if they're not having their best game offensively, have to contribute other ways. No excuses. Players at top clubs are supposed to be flexible and committed to the team (Giggs, Scholes, Solskaer are all examples). We just need to believe that Harry is a good manager who knows how to run a good team and give him the chance to do his thing.

As far as Ramos' current success? It does help that he was given a blank chequebook in January- buying Huntelaar and Diarra would have made Spurs much better too. I do think that he was hamstrung by the poor management of the Berbatov transfer and striker recruitment. But this is a dead-horse. There are many possible reasons why he's doing well at Madrid. All we can do is try to identify the reasons why he didn't do well at Spurs, fix those problems and move on in the best way possible.

 

[steve]

Can't blame the chairman,its the players that are at fault and the people that bought them.
Roy Hodgson is no managerial genius nor is David Moyles but they can spot a decent player who will do a good job in their team.
I look at our squad and can still see a load of players who are just not good enough and who don't have the right work ethic!
The amount of money we have spent balanced against the quality of players we have is an absolute disgrace.
Harry can't be blamed either because he inherited this team and it will take him a while to sort the team out and replace the deadwood.

I find this statement unbelievably naive Stemark. How can Levy not be responsible when it's HE who is hiring and firing the managers who buy the players in the first place? If we've had a load of duff managers in Levy's time here (and we have by and large) and they sign duff players then how can Levy NOT be responsible?

He's sacked and appointed to date:

George Graham (2 weeks before Cup semi)
Glenn Hoddle
David Pleat
Jacques Santini (and Frank Arnesen as DOF)
Martin Jol (and Damien Comolli as DOF)
Juande Ramos
Harry Redknapp

That's seven managers and two DOF (three if you include Pleat) in 8 years. And you're telling me that Levy is in no way responsible? It makes me laugh when I hear people lauding Levy for his business acumen and the way he runs the PLC (which is all true by the way) and citing this as reasons for why he's a great Chairman. I'm a football fan, not an economist, and as much as I'm reassured that he's a good businessman, he has showed precious little in the way of judgement when it comes to football and managers. Yes we spend money but we've ALWAYS spent money. He has his heart in the right place, of that I have no doubt but unfortunately that isn't enough. Just ask Glenn Hoddle and Ossie Ardiles....

 

[fedupyid]

Jol was spurs biggest mistake. Apart from the season where we missed out on fourth the last game of the season we did not have a side good enough to break into the top four. The season where we almost broke the top four we had a midfield with quality in it if only it had a decent left winger I believe we would have finished fourth easily. Then we sold the center of our midfield who was essential to Jol's basic tactics and signed a terrible replacement. Commoli consistantley did not sign Jol the players he needed and wanted. Commoli went out and signed kpb and when he arrived Jol told him he didn't want him. While that same summer Jol wanted Fellini for a much lower price but we didn't sign him because he got sent off in the under-21 european championships.

 

[worcestersauce]

First of all I think Ramos is an excellent manager and my posts while he was here show that however the fact that he is doing well at Madrid doesn't mean that we should have kept him.
The truth is that we had 2 points from a possible 24 having beaten absolutely nobody at all and that just isn't good enough whether the reason was bad management or poor communication; we all know the urban myth about Alex Ferguson being one gme from the sack but if he'd had that record he would have been given the sack.

 

[stemark44]

I find this statement unbelievably naive Stemark. How can Levy not be responsible when it's HE who is hiring and firing the managers who buy the players in the first place? If we've had a load of duff managers in Levy's time here (and we have by and large) and they sign duff players then how can Levy NOT be responsible?

He's sacked and appointed to date:

George Graham (2 weeks before Cup semi)
Glenn Hoddle
David Pleat
Jacques Santini (and Frank Arnesen as DOF)
Martin Jol (and Damien Comolli as DOF)
Juande Ramos
Harry Redknapp

That's seven managers and two DOF (three if you include Pleat) in 8 years. And you're telling me that Levy is in no way responsible? It makes me laugh when I hear people lauding Levy for his business acumen and the way he runs the PLC (which is all true by the way) and citing this as reasons for why he's a great Chairman. I'm a football fan, not an economist, and as much as I'm reassured that he's a good businessman, he has showed precious little in the way of judgement when it comes to football and managers. Yes we spend money but we've ALWAYS spent money. He has his heart in the right place, of that I have no doubt but unfortunately that isn't enough. Just ask Glenn Hoddle and Ossie Ardiles....

I get the point your making but imagine you owned a string of garages and you needed a guy to run one of them as a manager and to hire and fire his own staff.
Firstly you would interview and get references from the candidates and select the best one.
You would support him 100% and give him the freedom to run the garage.
However if the business performed badly,you would eventually have to sack him and get another manager - for me thats Levys role - he employs the best candidates he can and supports them 100% with funds to bring in their own staff and players.
I agree that we have gone through a fair amount of managers in the last couple of years but its not that easy to find a very good one.
If you think about it there are very,very few managers in the EPL that would be good enough for us and who would actually want the Spurs job!