Times changing for the worse?

[nipponyid]

Tottenham indirectly copied the line taken from black rappers with the chant of Yid army to embrace and deflect the hate shown from wet spam and chelski mainly with there gassing songs.

No we didn`t, we used before any US mo-fo hip-hoppers!!

 

[mezza84]

And does he sing the gassing song too?

No. Why would he?

My point was he doesn't find it offensive and sees the word as a reference to Thfc.

 

[striebs]

"Two Chelsea fans appeared in court today charged with offensive/racist chanting after being arrested at the Spurs game singing "If you don't do the bouncy you're a Y*d"

sorry I'm ignorant , anyone care to explain to me what "the bouncy" is ?



Any idea how the Spurs fan got on in court for singing "Yid Army" ?

Surely it was thrown out or was this just another show trial in a kangaroo court ?

 

[Jaispurs]

No. Why would he?

My point was he doesn't find it offensive and sees the word as a reference to Thfc.

He's an idiot though.

 

[worcestersauce]

No we didn`t, we used before any US mo-fo hip-hoppers!!

:rofl: Love it!

 

[mezza84]

He's an idiot though.

Bit harsh. He's a nice bloke.

 

[kezza]

Sorry mate, but that's precisely the point. Or did you not read the hypothetical situation I posted? You cannot claim racism unless there is racist motivation.

The definition of racism is prejudice based on the racial group a person belongs to. By using the term 'Yid' at Spurs games, are we making a pre judgement about Jewish people because they happen to be Jewish? Answer that.

exactly!! spurs fans use it as a term of endearment and solidarity, not in a racial way.

Wow can't believe this thread is 4 pages long before the first Jewish supporter chips in. I can't say I speak for all Jewish fans so I'll just offer a personal perspective. As has been said by others whether a word is derogatory generally depends on context. If another Jew referred to me as a fellow Yid (pronounced Yeed) it would be a casual greeting / term of endearment. Similarly if I was at a communal meeting and a speaker addressed the meeting by saying "my fellow Yidden" (the plural). However, if I was walking to synagogue and a skinhead shouted "Yid" at me that would clearly be derogatory.

As such I personally don't find the Yid Army chant offensive but rather a riposte to the numerous anti-Semites who vent their bile when facing Spurs. Anyone Spurs fan who has sat among goon scum at the NLD at their place and heard the constant references to Yid this and Yid that will you tell you how offensive that is and that doesn't even come close to the offense of the gassing song or the gas noises. I always find the chants in reply of Yid Army a perfect antidote of solidarity, although I know by now many chant it no longer understand that original context.

For full disclosure I know of fellow Jewish fans who find any mention of the term Yid highly offensive but then again as many Jewish comedians would tell you it is possible for 2 Jews being able to have 3 opinions :wink:

:clap::clap: great to hear from a Jew and great to hear that you, like most other Jews, can differentiate between racism and between a word used as a term of solidarity.

You say it perfectly when you say some yob calling you a yid on the street is an offensive term, whereas thousands of spurs fans chanting yids, is an entirely different thing and is all about the love and support of a team.

Another Jew to post on this subject.

Standing at Leeds United in 1995 in the Leeds end when Spurs were playing in the FA Cup was a very nerve racking experience. Chants of 'F*cking Yid scum', 'dirty Jews', Nazi salutes, the noise of the gas chambers made me feel sick and really quite scared.

What salvaged me in the midsts of all that provacation was the noise from the Spurs end proclaiming Yid Army and a large Isreali flag being raised in the sense of this provocation. How I wished to be with my fellow 'Yids'...

You see the word 'Yid' has been thrown as Spurs fans for decades. It comes from the historically large Jewish following that Spurs have had over the years as it is near to large Jewish populations in Stamford Hill, Golders Green, Finchley etc.

Growing up in Ilford I was subjected to the Yid word many many times. It is an awful word when directed at you and is exactly the same as calling someone from indian / pakistani origin a P*ki or a black person a N*gger.

I have absolutely no problem with the Yid Army chants though. I think its great and makes me proud to support a team where the fans embrace their Jewish fans rather than those down the road that riddicule them.

I have many many Jewish friends and family who all feel the same. I can't speak for all Jewish people but I haven't come across one that finds it offensive moreover I believe they feel the same as I do.

I am proud to be Jewish and proud to support Spurs.

Once a Yid always a Yid in football as in life.

COYS

:bowdown::bowdown: yiddo!! Again its all about the intention of a word. Its great to hear from Jewish fans.

Another Jewish contributor here and I don't find the use of the Yid terminology abusive in anyway nor do I mind if other supporters turn it round against us. It's part and parcel of the banter that goes on.

Having been abused with the term as a youngster in N London at school in the late 60's before it was adopted by Spurs I thin kI can also safely say that the term Yid is now not used much against Jews as an insult because it is associated with Spurs instead (so the anti semites find other terminology and insults instead!)

But as also mentioned elsewhere in this thread, we are now in such a politically correct mess, chances are we will find it being clamped down on by do gooders who just do not understand what is going on.

When i was younger i had no idea what the word Yid meant. I just heard mum saying it when she spoke about the spurs and i learnt that it was another word for a spurs supporter. It wasn't until i was older that i learnt where the word came from.Even then, i still didn't think it would ever be thought of as a term of offence as i thought it was used in a way of saying we are proud of our Jewish team.


I think the whole point is that its not used as an offensive term, Jew isn't a race, its a religion, and this whole situation of people being charged for using the term is PC gone mad!!

I see many Jewish guys, with caps on, going to watch the spurs at the lane, and that to me proved that they didn't find the term offensive. surely if they did, they wouldn't want to watch games at the lane, as they would feel offended every time they went.

what annoys me is that there is enough racism in this world, without trying to add to it with something that has no racist connotations or intention.

 

[Bingy]

Eire? That means that you were born prior to 1949? You will find that Rep of Ireland is your birthplace.....before you came to Londinium (lol). Sure, as long as we are following the 'way of the Cockerel' we are all pure COYS

 

[striebs]

I've done an internet search and couldn't find any reliable evidence about this taking place .

Are you sure we aren't all victims of a massive wind up ?

 

[Woland]

Here's what I quickly found in a thread I remember well.

As I've posted about 10 times, I'm very ambivalent about the "yid" thing - in two minds. In the end, I probably agree with you: I wouldn't chant it myself and it makes me uncomfortable sometimes, but it's just foolish to think that you can stop Spurs fans from using the "reclaimed" word as a badge, as an adopted name. As others have said, they should concentrate on tackling the racists, not waste time pursuing people who turn around a racist word and use it to describe themselves.

David Matzdorf, Jewish himself, sums up what is important in Yid chants debate that occurs now and then.

 

[daffygremlin]

Isnt the whole nigger thing that its ok for niggers to call other niggers niggers but not ok for non-niggers to call niggers niggers?

so it should be ok for Yids (assuming we mean spurs supporters, not exclusively jewish people) to call other Yids Yids, but not ok for non-Yids to call Yids Yids...

uh let me explain this to u before you get your ass kicked.

there are two "n" words. n*gga and n*gger. the first means brother/friends. while the second means you are an ignorant black person go pick my cotton. (as explained to me by several black ppl)


i am half white, half hispanic and have many black friends to whom i could get away with saying n*gga too because we know each other. that said if i just went up to a random black person and said "hey was up my n*gga" depending on the person i could very easily find myself getting my ass kicked. i could never say n*gger to one of my black friends though and get away with it. (they may not kick my ass but they would definitely be mad/dissapointed with me). and if i said n*gger to a random black person ild most likely get my ass kicked.

finally when u hear black ppl saying the N word to each other they are usually saying n*gga not n*gger. the latter is usually only used when they are pissed off.

anyways on the topic of the whole yid army chant, while i realize why it could be considered offensive its important to realize that the chant only started because the spurs fans wanted to fight against the anti-semitism.

edit: thats how ive been explained the meanings of the N word to me but if somebody disagrees feel free to correct me

 

[Houdini]

It's a bit cruel for these people to keep kicking your Ass, isn't there a RSPCA, (or equivalent) near you who could help in some way?

 

[fortworthspur]

as a Yank living with much rawer racial wounds, our nickname means nothing. its flattering to Jews, really. Please dont change it.

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

Obviously, all abuse depends on context. As has been pointed out by other Jewish posters, Yid can be a term of affection or defiance when used by Jews, but can also be used as a term of abuse when directed at Jews.

The problem for the authorities is that they rightly want to crack down on racial abuse but it's very difficult for them to distinguish the various different contexts in which a word/chant is used. It's hard for the authorities to say "Well, we don't mind the Spurs fans shouting Yid, but we'll arrest opposition fans for saying the same word" and so a blanket ban emerges. Which is a shame, because obviously most Spurs fans are happy to be known as the Yid Army. What started as an insult against Jews has become a badge of honour for Spurs fans, whether they are Jewish or not.

In terms of people taking offence, I remember being a naive young man, fresh out of university, working in a rubbish office in Haringay and an (Asian) Arsenal fan was going on about how much he hated Yids. I knew that he wasn't being anti-semitic, just grumbling about Spurs fans, but I also wanted to take him aside and warn him that his words could easily be seen as offensive.

 

[ohh_when_the_spurs]

...........and the award for using the N word as many times as possible in one post goes to

Isnt the whole nigger thing that its ok for niggers to call other niggers niggers but not ok for non-niggers to call niggers niggers?

so it should be ok for Yids (assuming we mean spurs supporters, not exclusively jewish people) to call other Yids Yids, but not ok for non-Yids to call Yids Yids...

:clap:

 

[StartingPrice]

This is not a racial debate in the slightest because there is no "jewish race", there is merely a "jewish religion" and that relation is called "judaism". To make this situation out to be a racial problem when it is in fact a religious problem, is to cheapen the difficulties of those who face genuine racial problems.

Now that we have established the fact that we're discussing a religious problem it is much, much easier to deal with.

Okay, I have read every post thus far, but couldn't go any further than this.

Firstly, I would like to point out that this is an interesting and illuminating debate.
Secondly, Lahn, you are factually incorrect. Judaism was the religion of the loose collection of tribally connected groups known as the Israealites. Like all ancient peoples the identity of a people and their religion were seen as concomitant. To be an Israelite was also to be a follower of the Judaistic religion, to be a follower of the Judaistic religion was to be an Israelite. Unlike other peoples, howeever, the Israelites were Monotheists - they believed they was one Divine Being at work in the Universe, rather than a pantheon of loosely conceived divine beings. Judaism, therefore was Monotheistic. Where other peoples saw there identity as being intrinsically connected to the efficacy of their deities, the Israelites did not. What this meant in effect was that if other peoples had little interest in sharing there deities with outsiders, and, conversely, if they were defeated would readily adopt there conquerors deities - as more efficacious - the Israelites would not. To them, YHWH (to use the Tetragrattaton) was YHWH whether they, as a people were victorious or defeated. They also believed that, as YHWH had given a Covenant through the people of Israel, which would benefit all peoples, they had a duty to convert (or proselytise).
That is the background - and this is where you are wrong. From the earliest days of proselytisation one of the major debates within Judaism concerned the status of the proselytised viz-a-viz born, Israelite, Jews; just what consitituted proselytisation and just how far it should go. Indeed, one of the major points of departure in the early Christian Church was between the Judaistic Christians, who believed that they were the true inheritors of the Israelite covenant, and therefore, racaially Jewish, and that proselytisation should where permitted, constitute full accceptance of all Jewish precepts - including dietary laws; and there opponents, who came eventaully to be known as Jentiles (even though most of their early members were indeed Hebrews). To many modern Jews today, they are still distinctively a 'race', and many draw a distinction between 'racial' Jewishness, and practioners of the Jewish religion who are of Gentile origin. The National Socialist Party had little interest in Judaism as a religion, theirs was a doctrine specifically based onn race - the Germans were a racially pure grouping in danger of pollution by members of the 'Jewish' race - hence the fact that anti-semitic laws were known as the 'Race Laws'.
Within the context of this debate, the milieu within which the term 'Yid' was adopted by Spurs supporters was one were the Mosleyites in the 1930s took their racial cue from Nazi germany, so they, too, when they displayed manifestations of anti-semitism, were specifially referencing the Jews as a race.
Anti-semitism is, therefore, a racial not a religious slur.
In specific regard to the usage of the terms 'Yid' and 'Yiddo' I have always (well for most of my Spurs supporting days known the origin of the adaptation to Spurs supporters, and viewed it as a source of pride. At the same time when I chant 'Yid' or 'Yiddo' I am not consciously referencing this in my mind with every chant, I am just supporting Spurs in a 'traditional' way.
In regard to the term 'Yid': it is, in origin, specifically the German/East European Jewry who were Yids. Etymologically it engenders the term Yiddish. And yet, while the term 'Yid' is seen as offensive, the term 'Yiddish' (originally pertaining to the German/East European Jews' linguistic identity cultural achievements is not seen as the least bit perjorative. I have just checked, and the Encyclopedia Britannica speaks of 'Yiddish Literature', 'Yiddish Music' and a 'Yiddish' daily newspaper. At the same tim when, for instance, when Jacob Glatstein wrote "Di freyd fun yidishn vort" (1961; “The Joy of the Yiddish Word”) 'Yiddish' in any context is seen as non-offensive, but in "A Yid fun Lublin" (1966; “A Jew from Lublin”), we see both how 'Yid' is used naturally without any perjorative meaning being attached to it, which is not true on other occasions; and the reason for this, which is that 'Yid' came to be seen as synonymous with 'Jew' (something which wasn't originally true). Hence, in the dark days of National Socialism 'Jew-Baiters' would shout 'Yid' (in Germany having an original specific meaning), and it came ot mean all Jews.
Ultimately, on a subjective level (n.b. everything above this is objective), I can only say again, I have never seen it as anything offensive to Jews, but if there was a legal injunction against using the term specifically in regard to Spurs I would comply - though I must say, in my guise as a historian, I would find it impossible not to use the term in its original meaning and context. And having been on the end of some 'minority' abuse, I can only say that the terms never bothered me much, it was the intent which was damaging, as it is intended to be. My black ex-girlfirend told me once that she was 20 before she heard the term 'coon' (she had quite a shltered upbringing), and when someone called her this in a pub she laughed, she just thought it was a funny word. In retrospect, of course, she learned what it was, and that doesn't alter the fact that the perpetrator did intend harm and not amusement.
That's my tuppence-worth - if there is a referendum amongst the Jewish community (though Gooners must state their ArseScum allegiance) and decide it IS offensive, after a thorough study of the context, then perhaps it should be dropped - but I would insist that it is political correctness run mad.

 

[full-frontal-nudity]

I seriously cant under stand these stoke or northern fans who insult us with the hissing gas chamber noises or the Munich songs described.
Honestly think if Hitler had taken over Britain. The first thing he would of done is imprison northerners for there funny accents and there inability to work.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

In all the time I've been going to Spurs I've never taken offense to it, nor have I joined in. I'm a non Jewish fan but I do understand it's origins. On the one hand I see it as a harmless chant which is unifying of our crowd and a show of solidarity, but on the other hand it does seem a little bit like 'we're asking for it' when 36'000 start chanting Yid Army, or Yiddo Yiddo Yiddo.

As for racism, that's insane. Racism is a criminal offence, but not one with strict liability attached to it. This means that, in the eyes of the law, if racial discrimination is not intended by the defendant, then there is no case. I liken it to the abuse received by Sol Campbell. He doesn't receive it because he is black, he receives it because he betrayed us, nothing to do with his skin colour. Just like when we chant Yid Army, we are not discriminating against other fans for being non-jews, we are just showing solidarity. No racism.

However, as I said before, it might be seen that we are asking for it. It gives other fans the opportunity to hiss, make nazi signs, etc, because it exposes a potential vulnerability.

Thing is, I never have and never will think of us as a Jewish club. We've had a succession of Jewish owners, true enough. So have Arsenal by the way. I actually know far more Jewish Arsenal and Man U fans from high density Jewish areas of London like Golders Green or Hampstead or even Hendon, whereas while I do know a fair few Jewish Spurs fans too, most Spurs fans I know are just Church of England boys from places like Brookmans Park, Potters Bar and Enfield.

I went to a school in central London who's students were probably 1 Jew in every 2 kids, and in my year at least I must admit the only Spurs fans I knew were Jewish but there were still more Jewish Arsenal fans.

I've never been a fan of painting ourselves as a Jewish club, because we're not. There's no such thing, just like there's no such thing as a Christian club, a Muslim Club or a Free Masons club, not in England anyway. We're an English club, just like the other 91 league clubs, and we have supporters of all ethnicities, religions and practices.

However, for anyone to take offence to the chanting of Yid Army, never mind to the extent that there is a prosecution as a result, is lunacy and if the chant is drummed out it will be a great shame because one of the biggest aspects of Football is the tribalism associated with it and if nothing else, the chants to give our generally shy crowd a chance to connect and be a tribe.

Ah well, at least we'll always have Sol Campbell!

 

[Lanh]

Secondly, Lahn, you are factually incorrect.

So you believe that a person can covert to a different race do you?

 

[Bing]

"Yid" is the Yiddish word for mate.

Spurs fans could claim to be simply speaking Yiddish (an important part of our history).


The faux-outrage of the PC brigade is so pompous and ridiculous one can only laugh at them.

There are more than enough serious issues in the world to worry about (including real racism)...lets not create another one for the sake of it.:roll: