Toby Alderweireld

[DaSpurs]

I think Mason and Bentaleb are serving that role quite well at the moment. I've seen fans of other supporters mention how mason is a prick. bentaleb was just being moaned at the other day for putting his hand in someone's face and almost stamping on Monreal.

They fall into that same category with Daws though, they're certainly tenacious and "up for it," but I don't think they actually strike legitimate fear into anyone. Those few milliseconds in hesitation that can come from fear can make a world of difference in this game, and we just don't strike any of it into anyone. The only fear factor we have is trying to defend Kane, that's it. We don't pin teams back with pace, we don't have dribbling trickery, we don't abuse people with outright physicality, and we don't have a **** who's revolting just to look at. We have a few flashy players (that can't dribble people), a few scrappy dudes in midfield who are "up for it," often get overrun in the box, and we have too handsome of a squad on average

So we need someone who can induce some fear, and we need it now.

 

[DaSpurs]

Regarding Terry and co. I think that comes down to opinion then. Like most players I think he'd Gove a good shout but I don't look at him and think he's scary. What he does and the rest of the team as you pointed out is get in people's faces as a collective cos they've been told to.

Keane is someone I wouldn't have messed with and there arent many of any like that around today. Even Kaboul can look quite imposing and someone you wouldn't wanna mess with, but like my original point being a **** and scary comes second to football ability. I reckon if we signed Shawcross the first few matches people would love it, and then slowly and slowly people would complain about his positioning or lack of composure or flying into challenges before wanting him to he sold and upgraded.

That's fair, I know he's not the best defender around, but I do think he's underrated.

Terry may not look outright scary, but he meets a threshold of being scary enough that he more than builds upon with his physicality. And like I said, between all the components of their defense, I'm sure some strikers are not overly keen to get up into the air or lunge in in the box at a low ball. Like I said, that brief fraction of a second due to hesitation can make a world of difference. We have absolutely no one who induces that.

Combine that with the fact that we need a captain right now, and I would view someone such as Shawcross as a favorable deal.

 

[Japhet]

That's fair, I know he's not the best defender around, but I do think he's underrated.

Terry may not look outright scary, but he meets a threshold of being scary enough that he more than builds upon with his physicality. And like I said, between all the components of their defense, I'm sure some strikers are not overly keen to get up into the air or lunge in in the box at a low ball. Like I said, that brief fraction of a second due to hesitation can make a world of difference. We have absolutely no one who induces that.

Combine that with the fact that we need a captain right now, and I would view someone such as Shawcross as a favorable deal.

As a comparison to Terry, I'd say Fazio is equally intimidating, slow/fast, vocal etc.. Terry also has a major f*** up in him from time to time. The main difference is that Terry can do no wrong in his Manager's eyes and doesn't get as exposed as Faz does by the way the team are set up to play or the players around him.

 

[DaSpurs]

As a comparison to Terry, I'd say Fazio is equally intimidating, slow/fast, vocal etc.. Terry also has a major f*** up in him from time to time. The main difference is that Terry can do no wrong in his Manager's eyes and doesn't get as exposed as Faz does by the way the team are set up to play or the players around him.

Yes, but that's skin-deep. Terry has built a reputation of years of success, and that very much factors into the mind of footballers on the pitch. Fazio has proven nothing, even if I agree that he's in a system that doesn't suit him.

Shawcross has a reputation of nastiness, is a decent defender, is extremely vocal, knows English very well (sorry, but in the heat of battle, quickly and clearly ratting off instruction is vital), is experienced in the EPL (knows how audible he needs to be at Anfield) is a hard-worker, and is an excellent leader. It's the full package we need, because we are so lacking at the moment. We need an instant captain.

 

[IGSpur]

Yes, but that's skin-deep. Terry has built a reputation of years of success, and that very much factors into the mind of footballers on the pitch. Fazio has proven nothing, even if I agree that he's in a system that doesn't suit him.

Fazio has proven more than Shawcross has. He has captained a side to a Europa League trophy and represented one of the best footballing countries in the world. Shawcross has done neither.

I really don't think people fear Shawcross as a person. People don't like going to Stoke as they have a reputation as a whole team as being lumps and kicking the shit out of you. Additionally Stoke is just a place you don't want to go in general as it is cold and wet, even Stoke players don't want to play at Stoke, and I think Shawcross has just become a bit of a poster boy for them. That tackle on Ramsey seemed to follow him as well and his reputation has been based off that. It wasn't even a bad tackle just poorly timed, and I think the press were hard on him. He cried when he did it. Hardly nasty.

Speaking of Stoke, Charlie Adam has a bigger reputation of being in your face and making people hesitant going into challenges than I think Shawcross. All through the Prem he has caused damage and to us alone he has caused serious damage on 4 separate occasions yet I wouldn't want him playing for us as he is a massive C U Next Tuesday. Additionally the fact that he is a nasty piece of work I don't think improved his team at all. The fact that people hesitated when going into challenges with him I don't think help improve Liverpool. In fact they didn't want him and instead they replaced him with Hendo who is the complete opposite.

Shawcross has a reputation of nastiness, is a decent defender, is extremely vocal, knows English very well (sorry, but in the heat of battle, quickly and clearly ratting off instruction is vital), is experienced in the EPL (knows how audible he needs to be at Anfield) is a hard-worker, and is an excellent leader. It's the full package we need, because we are so lacking at the moment. We need an instant captain.

Bar the nastiness at the start, which as I said I think is debateable he has built up an unfair reputation due to the team he played in and the type of football they played. Adam was nastier than him. The rest of the traits you read out is literally Dawson. I don't think if Dawson was nastier (and like I said I don't think Shawcross is nasty) people would have wanted Dawson to stay any longer. They would still have been saying he isn't good enough.

EDIT- Lastly I admit that it is generally not the best argument to say he doesn't play for England as bias can come into it. But he still isn't considered in England's biggest CB drought I've ever witnessed. I don't look at England's CB options, which aren't the best, and think you know what, we are really missing Shawcross, he needs to be playing, he's been hard done by. That says it all for me. Is he better than Cahill, Jagielka et al. they are all much of a muchness though Cahill is probably the best.

I know it is one game but Caulker outperformed him when they both made their England debut. I just don't think he would improve our defense that much. Doubt he'd make it worse just wouldn't do better and that's what we are looking for

 

[Strikeb4ck]

Yes, but that's skin-deep. Terry has built a reputation of years of success, and that very much factors into the mind of footballers on the pitch. Fazio has proven nothing, even if I agree that he's in a system that doesn't suit him.

Shawcross has a reputation of nastiness, is a decent defender, is extremely vocal, knows English very well (sorry, but in the heat of battle, quickly and clearly ratting off instruction is vital), is experienced in the EPL (knows how audible he needs to be at Anfield) is a hard-worker, and is an excellent leader. It's the full package we need, because we are so lacking at the moment. We need an instant captain.

Kaboul would be a perfect captain, he just doesn't play nearly well enough anymore.

The only signing I can think of that fits instant captain is Ashley Williams. To be honest I'm not sure how good he actually is though (I don't mean that in a negative sense, just genuinely not sure). Swansea are a hard team to get right in evaluating individuals because their game is so based on teamwork.

 

[DaSpurs]

Fazio has proven more than Shawcross has. He has captained a side to a Europa League trophy and represented one of the best footballing countries in the world. Shawcross has done neither.

Not in the EPL though, which is to what I was referring. Plenty of players have success in other leagues but don't perform in England, and the players know that, so you have to earn your stripes for the majority in the EPL before you can garner respect.

I really don't think people fear Shawcross as a person. People don't like going to Stoke as they have a reputation as a whole team as being lumps and kicking the shit out of you. Additionally Stoke is just a place you don't want to go in general as it is cold and wet, even Stoke players don't want to play at Stoke, and I think Shawcross has just become a bit of a poster boy for them. That tackle on Ramsey seemed to follow him as well and his reputation has been based off that. It wasn't even a bad tackle just poorly timed, and I think the press were hard on him. He cried when he did it. Hardly nasty.

I'm aware of the general fear of Stoke, but amid all the insanity, there's a reason Shawcross is their captain. Honestly, I don't even know how to debate an argument that players don't fear Shawcross specifically. Don't take this as a slight, but I'm frankly about as speechless as when BC tries to argue that speed is not important in a quick press. The guy is ruthlessly overzealous in his tackles, and has a track record of going through people to get to the ball. I can see the argument of avoiding him for his card count for this reason (which is fair) or that he does it because his positioning blows, but I think any player in this physical league would concede Shawcross is an intimidating presence in Stoke's back line. He is not a fun player to dribble against, and he does very well about planting fear of life and limb in player's heads. I was an attacker/midfielder myself, and his style of tackle is textbook explicit intent to get inside opposition players' heads. Mark Hughes has even pointed out that he feels referees target Shawcross specifically for the reputation he holds.

Adam is just an outright ****, hands down. Yes, he does contribute to a general fear of having to play Stoke, but that shouldn't take away from how Shawcross' presence manifests. That's like saying an apple in a fruit basket sucked because the orange was delicious.

Bar the nastiness at the start, which as I said I think is debateable he has built up an unfair reputation due to the team he played in and the type of football they played. Adam was nastier than him. The rest of the traits you read out is literally Dawson. I don't think if Dawson was nastier (and like I said I don't think Shawcross is nasty) people would have wanted Dawson to stay any longer. They would still have been saying he isn't good enough.

Right, but the whole point here is the complete package, which Dawson was not, and the age was clearly affecting his agility. So you're right, we would have still been saying he's not good enough. Dawson was clearly a great leader, but he instilled no fear in anyone, and it became more difficult to lead on the pitch as he became more and more prone to errors reflecting diminished lack of capability.

EDIT- Lastly I admit that it is generally not the best argument to say he doesn't play for England as bias can come into it. But he still isn't considered in England's biggest CB drought I've ever witnessed. I don't look at England's CB options, which aren't the best, and think you know what, we are really missing Shawcross, he needs to be playing, he's been hard done by. That says it all for me. Is he better than Cahill, Jagielka et al. they are all much of a muchness though Cahill is probably the best.

I know it is one game but Caulker outperformed him when they both made their England debut. I just don't think he would improve our defense that much. Doubt he'd make it worse just wouldn't do better and that's what we are looking for

Who said he has to be England's best? And you know better than I that players at clubs not from the big seven are historically at a disadvantage for selection. There were quite a few people criticizing Hodgson for not selecting him this fall in the Euro qualifications as was. So in truth, it's hypocritical for us to criticize Hodgson/the FA for not selecting our own when they aren't, but then rule out Shawcross because he's not been selected for England.



I get the argument that he's not the best defender. That's fair. I would also view the argument that he fouls too much and over compensates for poor positioning as justified, and I respect that you even started with that. But I just have nothing I can say to an argument implying that he doesn't have a reputation and that he doesn't have the ability to strike fear into opposition players. Crap defender not befitting of the Mighty Lillywhites: fair enough. Doesn't get in the heads of opposition players: I just can't see or fathom the standpoint for such an argument.

 

[DaSpurs]

Kaboul would be a perfect captain, he just doesn't play nearly well enough anymore.

The only signing I can think of that fits instant captain is Ashley Williams. To be honest I'm not sure how good he actually is though (I don't mean that in a negative sense, just genuinely not sure). Swansea are a hard team to get right in evaluating individuals because their game is so based on teamwork.

Kaboul would be, it's true, but I think those knee injuries have finally caught up with him and he didn't have the right attitude in dealing with it nor younger, less experienced players calling him out. A real leader takes the criticism, makes the adjustment quickly, and carries on leading his side.

Williams isn't a bad shout tbh because he classifies as HG, is older and so wouldn't block Dier for long (IMO, the biggest drawback to Shawcross is the fact he'd stand in Dier's way longer than I'd ideally prefer), is a decent defender, and clearly we have a good relationship with Swansea. Problem is, he just signed a new contract this past summer through 2018, so they could ask a decent fee for him. Of course, Shawcross' contract is also to that duration, and I'm sure Stoke would demand a sizable fee.

 

[Strikeb4ck]

Kaboul would be, it's true, but I think those knee injuries have finally caught up with him and he didn't have the right attitude in dealing with it nor younger, less experienced players calling him out. A real leader takes the criticism, makes the adjustment quickly, and carries on leading his side.

Williams isn't a bad shout tbh because he classifies as HG, is older and so wouldn't block Dier for long (IMO, the biggest drawback to Shawcross is the fact he'd stand in Dier's way longer than I'd ideally prefer), is a decent defender, and clearly we have a good relationship with Swansea. Problem is, he just signed a new contract this past summer through 2018, so they could ask a decent fee for him. Of course, Shawcross' contract is also to that duration, and I'm sure Stoke would demand a sizable fee.

I don't think us signing Williams is likely at all, I only mentioned it because that is the single instant captain I could think of that we could realistically buy. I don't think we'll sign anyone over the age of 28 for a while (unless it's a VdV type deal)...I think we have a totally different transfer methodology in place now with Baldini, Mitchell, the new scouts, etc.

Furthermore taking the captaincy away from Lloris would create an awkward situation.

 

[DaSpurs]

I don't think us signing Williams is likely at all, I only mentioned it because that is the single instant captain I could think of that we could realistically buy. I don't think we'll sign anyone over the age of 28 for a while (unless it's a VdV type deal)...I think we have a totally different transfer methodology in place now with Baldini, Mitchell, the new scouts, etc.

Furthermore taking the captaincy away from Lloris would create an awkward situation.

Depends, I think if we could get that VdV type deal and it provides us with an instant leader, then we would take it. I would be very surprised if Poch didn't feel this young team needed a more instant leader, and didn't feel an investment in such a player worth it.

Also, you must take into consideration two things: 1) With the high press, it's the least conducive system to a goalkeeper being the vocal captain on the pitch. A center back conversely, would be absolutely perfect, as the greatest weakness to the high press is a counterattacking pass in behind. Therefore, a center back who a) can see everything and b) is closer to the midfielders to give vocal instruction to close pass lanes would be ideal. 2) Lloris doesn't have a low voice. Low frequency soundwaves carry further across the medium of air, making him even less conducive to being the vocal leader, especially when he's so far away and in a loud stadium (transecting soundwaves are strong impediments and absorbers of other soundwaves, and higher pitched voices are more susceptible to interaction with other soundwaves).

So ideally, I think we need a vocal leader there at CB to be a co-captain, and Lloris as well to be co-captain for his sheer leadership and professionalism. In fact, we could even make the new player be vice captain if it would keep Lloris happy. Either way, we've got to have that vocal presence in this high press.

 

[stevenurse]

I thought this was the Alderweireld thread?

Can a mod correctly retitle this "Kaboul, Terry, Dawson and Shawcross..."

 

[matthew.absurdum]

I thought this was the Alderweireld thread?

Can a mod correctly retitle this "Kaboul, Terry, Dawson and Shawcross..."

As long as no lamela debate in this thread, I am fine with it

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I thought this was the Alderweireld thread?

Can a mod correctly retitle this "Kaboul, Terry, Dawson and Shawcross..."

I think we should re-sign Caulker.

 

[allatsea]

I think we should re-sign Caulker.

After helping two clubs to be relegated ?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

After helping two clubs to be relegated ?

He's on a roller coaster that's only going up, my friend.

 

[allatsea]

He's on a roller coaster that's only going up, my friend.

He'll have to improve considerably to get into our defence even with our current shortcomings. Dier is streets ahead of him in the qualities necessary to be a top central defender.

 

[Sweech]

He's on a roller coaster that's only going up, my friend.

Really? Every time I've seen QPR he's never shown me anything to suggest he should be at a higher level than the one he's at.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Really? Every time I've seen QPR he's never shown me anything to suggest he should be at a higher level than the one he's at.

In our present squad, we've got Kaboul & Chiriches. Obviously Caulker would be an upgrade on somebody who last played in 2014.

 

[Sweech]

In our present squad, we've got Kaboul & Chiriches. Obviously Caulker would be an upgrade on somebody who last played in 2014.

Given Caulker's form he'd be with Chiriches and Kaboul watching the game as well.

Not to mention that being better than Chiriches or Kaboul is not exactly singing anyone's praise at the moment either.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Not to mention that being better than Chriches or Kaboul is exactly singing anyone's praise at the moment either.

Correct. But if that's who we got to replace, even an empty bottle of Italian red wine would suffice.