VDV : "Spurs are bigger than Arsenal!"

[$hoguN]

1) Like I said before, the Arsenal players haven't wanted to jump ship to Utd, or Man Utd haven't even gone in for their players. They've come in for Sheringham, Carrick and Berbatov in the past.

Also, those players have wanted to go to Utd not Barca. So while we would be better off selling them abroad, when a player wants to join a certain club, it's hard to keep them from doing so (especially with only a couple of years left on their contracts).

If Utd go in for an Arsenal player, then who's to say Utd wont get them? Chelsea got Cole. Man City got Adebayor. Why would it be any different for Utd? It just so happens that Berbatov always had dreams of playing for Utd, and i'm sure Carrick did too.

2) Arsenal players joining Barca are joining them because they're a bigger club. It's the same principle as our players joining Man Utd. Both Barca and Man Utd are 2 of the biggest clubs in the World. Both clubs are bigger than Arsenal and Spurs. So its similar in that respect.

I don't think it is, Adebayor wanting to go to City is much different to him wanting to go to Utd. If i'm being perfectly honest I fully believe most clubs really aren't worried about Man City. They have loads of cash but don't seem to be able to target the right players, especially considering that the financial rules are going to continue to tighten over the next few years. There was also lots of reports of in-fighting regarding Adebayor at the time and Arsenal seemed very happy to shift him. In terms of letting players go, there is no better manager in the world at evaluating when to cash in on a player than Wenger.

The A. Cole situation was also vastly different, as they had a ready made replacement in Clichy and also needed a CB so were happy to make the swap and cash in.

 

[mil1lion]

I don't think it is, Adebayor wanting to go to City is much different to him wanting to go to Utd. If i'm being perfectly honest I fully believe most clubs really aren't worried about Man City. They have loads of cash but don't seem to be able to target the right players, especially considering that the financial rules are going to continue to tighten over the next few years. There was also lots of reports of in-fighting regarding Adebayor at the time and Arsenal seemed very happy to shift him. In terms of letting players go, there is no better manager in the world at evaluating when to cash in on a player than Wenger. The A. Cole situation was also vastly different, they had a ready made replacement in Clichy and also needed a CB so were happy to make the swap and cash in.

It's still strengthening the competition though. If they're really not worried about Man City, then that would be pretty stupid of them. Not because I necessarily think they'll be title contenders, but the fact that they could well be should be enough reason.

So they've strengthened the competition as much as we have over the years. We haven't sold to Chelsea, Arsenal or Man City. They haven't sold to Man Utd, Liverpool or Spurs. Hell we sold Keane to Liverpool and got him back 6mths later anyway.

I agree about Wenger knowing when to let his players go. But he's still let some go to other Premier League challengers much like we have. We may not have been as well suited to losing our key players, although we've still finished higher without Berbatov than we did with him. So we're not suffering too bad ourselves.

The frequency of which we sell our best players isn't that bad either. We lost 2 top players within a 2 year period (Carrick & Berbatov), with 1 (Keane) going and coming back again. The other 2 were Sheringham in 97 and Campbell in 2001. So in a 13 year period we've sold 5 players to bigger teams in England. 1 of which came back shortly after.

That isn't too bad at all. The good thing is, we're now in a much better position to replace any big name players we sell. As we've shown when we lost the likes of Modric and Lennon through injury. We handled it well.

 

[$hoguN]

Yes you are right they have strengthened the opposition, but we sold our BEST players Carrick was vital to our 5th place that year, similiar with Berbatov and Keane who were the best strike duo in the league at the time. Wenger let Adebayor go who was an enigma and A. Cole go, neither of who were the heart beat of their team at the time.

 

[mil1lion]

I thought Cole was a huge loss to Arsenal at the time. While Clichy is a quality player, Cole is the best in the World at left back. They may have done ok losing Adebayor, but I don't think they were easy about letting him go either. They would sooner have Adebayor than Bendtner, I have no doubt about that. I'm sure they kicked up a fuss when City came in for him aswell, but Adebayor made a lot of noises to force his way out (as he seems to be doing again with Man City).

 

[$hoguN]

Huge loss or not, it was not the equivalent of losing the heartbeat of your team to another EPL side. Us selling Carrick, Berbatov and Keane, is like Arsenal selling Fabregas to Utd/Chelsea

It just wouldn't happen, they would make him see out his contract rather than letting him go to one of those sides

 

[Misfit]

assnal selling them Henry circa 2003 would be comparable to the Berbatov sitch.

 

[mil1lion]

Huge loss or not, it was not the equivalent of losing the heartbeat of your team to another EPL side. Us selling Carrick, Berbatov and Keane, is like Arsenal selling Fabregas to Utd/Chelsea

It just wouldn't happen, they would make him see out his contract rather than letting him go to one of those sides

The big difference over the years between Spurs and Arsenal has been that Arsenal haven't had a heartbeat of the team as such. They've been building a great squad for a number of years. So sure, they could lose world class players like Henry, Cole and Adebayor and still have the quality to continue.

My main point is however, since Harry has arrived the gap has closed on Arsenal. We're not as much of a 1 man team anymore. We haven't sold any top players since Harry took over and if we do, i'm confident we'll handle it better.

Our biggest problem over the years was constant changes. A new manager comes in, plays a different style of football, and has his own players in mind. Which made losing the likes of Berbatov and Carrick a lot harder to deal with. We've been slowly building a squad of player over the years now, and we now have much better depth so we can handle the loss of a top player a lot better.

 

[$hoguN]

I agree

 

[mattyspurs]

The only player we could really not afford to loose now would be Bale.

 

[TheGreenLily]

Awesome, but I do hope it doesn't fire the bum gunners up though.

 

[mil1lion]

I think there are special players who any team would miss and Bale is one of them. But even if worst came to worst and we lost Bale, we'd be much better prepared for it than we were when we lost Berbatov or Carrick. Back when we lost those players, we really didn't have players like Modric and VDV in the squad.

This is where I really think the gap has closed with Arsenal now. They've always had a number of top class players. When they lose Fabregas, they'll still have the likes of Nasri, Van Persie and Arshavin. If we lost Bale, we'd still have VDV, Modric and Lennon. Hell we've managed to cope without Berbatov so why not Bale?

I still think we maybe need one more top player (a striker) though. That for me would put us right up there with Arsenal.

Of course I don't really want to think about losing Bale and we should be better prepared to keep him now anyway.

 

[Stavrogin]

On a tangent...

The best thing I heard VdV say was: [paraphrasing] 'of course we were going to win after I scored the penalty.'

I think this is mentality we lack, as other have mention vis a vis arsenal. It's the confidence/arrogance/knowledge that we should win and we will win if we just keep going. I doubt any of our players would have said that and perhaps too few think it.

It takes time, but players like VdV clearly help.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

As much as we all like to hear our players loyally bigging us up publicly it is ridiculous to say we are a bigger club than arsenal, using any discernible criteria as a yard stick.

The have been impeccably run off the pitch, and have the best coach in the EPL. The have a magnificent stadium, twice the size as ours and a much bigger turnover. The have more world wide fans and have won more trophies in the last decade, playing superior football to anyone in europe bar a couple of teams and vastly superior to us.

It's painful but it's the truth.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

For the record, I don't think their collective "mentality" of late has been vastly superior to ours but the way they are coached has been.

 

[mil1lion]

Sir Alex is the best coach in the Premier League.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Sir Alex is the best coach in the Premier League.

This. Not even a close argument.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Sir Alex is the best coach in the Premier League.

I'd say Wenger is the best coach, Fergie the best manager.

 

[mil1lion]

I think Wenger is a great coach, but he has some serious flaws. 1 of them being the toughness or lack there of with his younger players. He focuses far too much on them getting the ball down and passing, and less on the physical and mental toughness.

This for me is what seperates Sir Alex from Arsene Wenger. He has turned his players into true fighting champions. While Wnger only ever had that when he signed the likes of Vieira and Petit. He never brings the young players through to suit the physical aspects of the English game

He always comes out complaining about the physical side of the game and it proves what his mindset is. His young players are great footballing players, but they're not tough enough to follow in the footsteps of the Vieira era. Sir Alex is much better at shaping his players up to be tough physically and mentally, and turning them into winners.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think Wenger is a great coach, but he has some serious flaws. 1 of them being the toughness or lack there of with his younger players. He focuses far too much on them getting the ball down and passing, and less on the physical and mental toughness.

This for me is what seperates Sir Alex from Arsene Wenger. He has turned his players into true fighting champions. While Wnger only ever had that when he signed the likes of Vieira and Petit. He never brings the young players through to suit the physical aspects of the English game

He always comes out complaining about the physical side of the game and it proves what his mindset is. His young players are great footballing players, but they're not tough enough to follow in the footsteps of the Vieira era. Sir Alex is much better at shaping his players up to be tough physically and mentally, and turning them into winners.

I think Wenger knows this, but I think he really wants to win the league in this manner without the need for overt physical toughness but by going to places like Blackburn and Stoke and playing them off the park rather than grinding out ugly points. I think it's his vision, and he won't change that any time soon. I'm still not sure about Arsenal's mental toughness at the moment though, which has held them back these last few years and could do this season.

Fergie has no such scruples, nor Mourinho(who I think is the worlds best manager), and will stop at nothing in trying to achieve what they want. Oddly enough, I still can't really work out Ancelotti yet, despite winning the double.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sir Alex is the best coach in the Premier League.

I'd say Wenger is the best coach, Fergie the best manager.

When I clicked the reply + on mil1lion's post it was to say pretty much exactly what SS18 said.

But I'm not sure how much better than Ancelotti he is. Could Ferguson go to Italy and achieve what Ancelotti has ? Possibly.

And it would have been fucking interesting to see how Ferguson coped with Wengers transfer budget.