Well done Arsenal ….We are million miles behind you in so many ways……

[walworthyid]

I'm glad I sitll see football as a sport and the most important thing to me is what happens on a pitch at 3pm every saturday ( the odd wednesday/monday, sunday etc, such is the modern game )

The day I start fretting about the business plan, capacity etc is the day I stop following the sport.

You make some fair points but some can be argued against strongly ( all singing and dancing stadium? It's a plastic palace with zero atmosphere of which I have heard plenty argue that they got a very, very poor sponsorship, naming rights deal, especially compared to the figures being bandied around for our deal which would virtually foot the whole bill for our new home )

Arsenal have managed to do the same as United regarding their transition from an ageing squad to a younger one? They have not. Last time I checked United were gunning for the title, still in the Europa and have won countless trophies in recent years. Arsenal have not come close to matching that.

I admire their approach, it's virtually identical to ours ( run at a profit, everything geared up towards the FFP rules ) and of course I admire Wenger for his loyalty to them and the trophies he has won there but his recent record suggests his sell by date is nigh, possibly passed.

At the end of the day I'm the luckiest football fan in the world because I support Tottenham Hotspur. Eff the rest.

Amen brother!

Other teams only exist so that we have got somebody to play!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spurslenny]

An early contender for the 'Most Pointless Thread of Year' award 2012, perhaps?

Gets my vote.

 

[StartingPrice]

Strangely...

We have a better team, and a better squad. Don't let our shit performance last week, and a lucky win over an average Liverpool today, fool you into thinking they are better than they are.

A "million miles behind"? That's so wrong it might actually cause the word 'wrong' to be retired and get its own testimonial.

...this is right...

The league table begs to differ.

...and this is right...

The reason for this post is I am sick of everyone being so short sited and the quicker we appreciate that we are part of a bigger business plan the better.

Even pundits and commentators are as guilty as us fans..... (me included, before the penny dropped)

We look at our starting 11/squad etc and say oh look we are better than these on paper blah blah blah but when you look at the bigger picture we are in a bit of a pickle.....


If you think this is doom and gloom…. No manager, champions league is by no means cemented, stadium is going to tighten a belt that is already pretty tight.

So the quicker we start thinking realistically the easier it is going to be for us to come to terms with our progression.

...and this is only partly right.
I fully appreciate exactly where we are in our development...hell, I use it all the time as justification for my insane optimism.

But you are overlooking one or two factoids omg:
We are not constrained to develop in a manner directly comparable in a linear mode to that the Goons followed.
For a start, we have undertaken the Training Facility development first, which already promises to put us ahead of the game in terms of youth development.
Secondly, Levy has directed the Strategic Club Relationship initiative prior to ground development...he has pioneered in this field.
Thirdly, he has shown greater awareness, than any Chairman hitherto, of the relationship between sponsorship and Naming rights and ground development.
Fourthly, he has said over and over again (for those who pay any attention to what he actually says) that the finances for ground development are hedged and completely seperate from those for squad development. This is a completely different situation to the Goons, as well.

The fact is, I fully appreciate our stage of development, and I believe it is VERY realistic, and yet it is very, very different to yours.

As I see it, the Goons have had their shiny new stadium for years, now, and sound off constantly about how much money there is for Whinger to spend, and he either doesn't spend it, or spends it badly, while being forced, constantly, to sell his best players. We, on the other hand, have the training Facilities and Strategic Club relationships in place to overtake them in the identification and development of young talent, we have a better team than them, with more WC players (last week notwithstanding), we have money to spend on squad strengthening and it is seperate and hedged from the money for ground development.

I don't see that they are a million miles ahead of us, I them below us in the leageu with a worse team - and someone overreacting to one bad result in an otherwise excellent season.

Hell, we can even lose Redknapp, Modric and Bale this Summer, and still be in a fantastic position - because we could add all of the developments listed above, and, still a pretty good young squad, to the £100 - £120 million he would screw from losing them three.

 

[CosmicHotspur]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Even when they are wrong. :shrug:

 

[worcestersauce]

Credit where it's due they have handled the transition from a title winning team to a team to challenge for the fourth qualifying CL place very well.

 

[Jay The Yid]

well it looks like we are learning from their mistakes with regards to the new stadium I absolutely HATE their soulless bowl of a stadium. the fact the rake of the lower tier is far too shallow, the fact that the corporate middle tier absolutely destroys any atmosphere the arsenal fans try to generate. The seats start much too far from the pitch. Hate the place and many Arsenal fans I know wish they stayed at Highbury. The place is just crap.

Looks like Levy and Spurs have learnt from the many mistakes of our friends down the road and in say 5 years time we will have a much superior footballing arena.

christ I know WHL is a bit run down but would much prefer to watch my football at the Lane that their shitty stadium.

 

[Coyboy]

We are not a million miles from them in some ways, but some of you are more deluded than the OP's sentiments if you think that we are not still behind them in most ways including football.

As The OP rightly points out, Arsenal lost the best player of his kind in the EPL (Fabregas) and another of their most creative players (Nasri) yet are still playing much better football, more consistently than us, and have outplayed us twice this season, despite us supposedly having a superior team.

For us to have overtaken them in the footballing sense we would have to start looking like it when we play them and start finishing above them consistently. We haven't managed that once for last 15 years.

In every other way they are vastly superior to us. They are coached better, they make vastly more money than us, partly thanks to their fantastic new stadium and because there coaching ethos has seen them constantly achieve CL football and previously win championships.

We are starting to make progress in comparison, but have a long way to of to even be close to being compared to where they are and achieving what they have over the last decade plus.

How can you know that when you watch us being coached terribly at Spurs Lodge day in day out?

There were reports that they don't practice defending set pieces; is that good coaching? Defensively they are very poor. We really should have been three up last week. Yesterday Liverpool were all over them, were it not for one very good cross and very good finish by the best striker in the league/world and not to mention a shit load of luck they would have lost.

Wenger's ethos may be admirable and when it comes off it is certainly aesthetically pleasing and effective but a) that happens less and less these days and b) his management in his focus on defense and his recruitment policy is deeply flawed.

Compare how we played at the San Siro and how they did and then say they play better football and are better coached than us.

Either way the OP is full of shit. If the point was to suggest that because they hammered us last week and are in good form, they are suddenly light years above us then he's full of shit. If the point was that since Wenger joined, they have been consistently better than, us then no shit but it's an odd time to say it as we have- under the ****, shit coach that Redknapp is- bridged or even closed that gap.

 

[StartingPrice]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Even when they are wrong. :shrug:

And everyone else is equally entitled to counter that opinion with their own.

Credit where it's due they have handled the transition from a title winning team to a team to challenge for the fourth qualifying CL place very well.

:rofl:

 

[Dare!]

Worst. Thread. Ever.

 

[GoldstarYid]

If you want respect don't ignore when people make valid points against you, it's all well to get annoyed with people giving your smart arse comments but as soon as you start ignoring people putting together long winded, detailed explained responses to you arguing your point you will lose any respect you had from them.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How can you know that when you watch us being coached terribly at Spurs Lodge day in day out?

There were reports that they don't practice defending set pieces; is that good coaching? Defensively they are very poor. We really should have been three up last week. Yesterday Liverpool were all over them, were it not for one very good cross and very good finish by the best striker in the league/world and not to mention a shit load of luck they would have lost.

Wenger's ethos may be admirable and when it comes off it is certainly aesthetically pleasing and effective but a) that happens less and less these days and b) his management in his focus on defense and his recruitment policy is deeply flawed.

Compare how we played at the San Siro and how they did and then say they play better football and are better coached than us.

Either way the OP is full of shit. If the point was to suggest that because they hammered us last week and are in good form, they are suddenly light years above us then he's full of shit. If the point was that since Wenger joined, they have been consistently better than, us then no shit but it's an odd time to say it as we have- under the ****, shit coach that Redknapp is- bridged or even closed that gap.

I agree with some of what you say. Last week in the Darren Lewis thread I said:

"Their defence and more accurately how they defend is their Achilles heel. But if we are spending all our time in out half we aren't going to test it enough."

But I also pointed out that they still generally press and close down better than we do, and IMO play a better endemic brand of football than we do - in as much as it is based on an intrinsic belief in playing with the ball, passing and intelligent movement and they manage to apply it more frequently than we do.

I agree that they/Wenger does not pay enough attention to the tactics of defending - but I think some of the problems they have had has been about the injuries and unavailability of players who play defensive roles like Sagna, , Cliche, Vermalen, Song, Diaby etc. We look bloody fragile at times, imagine if we lost Kaboul, King, Parker, Sandro, Walker all at the same time.

A few years ago they became the only side to go unbeaten through a season. Hardly suggests the bloke is a complete defensive dimwit.

The OP was a bit hyperbolic. In terms of personnel we are pretty much there, maybe even marginally better off. In terms of playing we have hit their quality on several occasions in spurts and on at least 3 full games.

But we are a very, very long way from being close to achieving what they have in terms of consistency of ethos & consistency of performance and footballing achievement or trophies - just recently.

In terms of off the field we are also a very long way behind them in terms of Stadium & revenue and all relating facets.

But we are extremely well run, possibly more shrewdly than any other club and hopefully when the stadium arrives we shall be very close to Arsenal in all facets "off field". But until that happens, the OP makes a reasonably valid point, that in many ways, Arsenal are superior to us.

If you felt the OP was so full of shit, why not reply to that post, instead mine ? I thought you were all for "pathetic vendetta variation" ?

 

[StartingPrice]

If you want respect don't ignore when people make valid points against you, it's all well to get annoyed with people giving your smart arse comments but as soon as you start ignoring people putting together long winded, detailed explained responses to you arguing your point you will lose any respect you had from them.

Tha's gotta be a dig at me, right :shrug: :grin:

 

[GoldstarYid]

Tha's gotta be a dig at me, right :shrug: :grin:

Hahaha, well i guess you could take it that way. However, my post on page 2 was one of the longest in this thread and the fact i sat and took the time to put it together when before then, nobody had really given him a decent reply, for him to ignore it wound me up.

I enjoy your long winded italicised hyphenated-posts :grin:

 

[sloth]

Well done Arsenal ….We are million miles behind you in so many ways……

Right just for the record I hate them as much as you! I cheer for every team they play against like my own and I hate everything they stand for…..

However as much as it hurts me I appreciate what they have done……

Before you take it upon yourselves to insult me etc. Treat this as indeed a forum to express points and thoughts etc and feel free to comment on the ones you agree/disagree with….

They lost 2 out of 3 of their best players at the beginning of the season. (Nasri and Fabregas) – Take x2 of Bale, VDV and Modric out of our squad and see what happens.

They are going to finish in the champions league places, and a lot are saying they are going to catch us and do it automatically.

They have turned the club from one that makes a loss into a profit.

They have an all singing all dancing stadium that is pretty much paid off for…..

They have had and will have a loyal manager that has helped them through this transition, where is ours? Oh yes that’s right off to manage our national team.

They have made the effective transition that every one of the previous ‘big four’ needed to make, what I am referring to is an aging squad! Chelsea and Liverpool have failed. However Man Utd and Arsenal have in my opinion done this effectively with limited upset, whether this be by buying in young talent or developing it.

So if someone said to you for let’s say 6-7 years we too wouldn’t win a trophy but get to a few finals, and qualify for the champions league every season but at the end of it have a club/business in the same position as them now would you take it?

I would snap their hand off…….

Right just for the record I hate them as much as you! I cheer for every team they play against like my own and I hate everything they stand for…..

However as much as it hurts me I appreciate what they have done……

Before you take it upon yourselves to insult me etc. Treat this as indeed a forum to express points and thoughts etc and feel free to comment on the ones you agree/disagree with….

They lost 2 out of 3 of their best players at the beginning of the season. (Nasri and Fabregas) – Take x2 of Bale, VDV and Modric out of our squad and see what happens.

They are going to finish in the champions league places, and a lot are saying they are going to catch us and do it automatically.

They have turned the club from one that makes a loss into a profit.

They have an all singing all dancing stadium that is pretty much paid off for…..

They have had and will have a loyal manager that has helped them through this transition, where is ours? Oh yes that’s right off to manage our national team.

They have made the effective transition that every one of the previous ‘big four’ needed to make, what I am referring to is an aging squad! Chelsea and Liverpool have failed. However Man Utd and Arsenal have in my opinion done this effectively with limited upset, whether this be by buying in young talent or developing it.

So if someone said to you for let’s say 6-7 years we too wouldn’t win a trophy but get to a few finals, and qualify for the champions league every season but at the end of it have a club/business in the same position as them now would you take it?

I would snap their hand off…….

The reason for this post is I am sick of everyone being so short sited and the quicker we appreciate that we are part of a bigger business plan the better.

Even pundits and commentators are as guilty as us fans..... (me included, before the penny dropped)

We look at our starting 11/squad etc and say oh look we are better than these on paper blah blah blah but when you look at the bigger picture we are in a bit of a pickle.....


If you think this is doom and gloom…. No manager, champions league is by no means cemented, stadium is going to tighten a belt that is already pretty tight.

So the quicker we start thinking realistically the easier it is going to be for us to come to terms with our progression.

Well that's provocative

A weird mixture of insight and complete lack of perspective.

I think what you've done here is mistaken the personal journey you're on, to whatever enlightenment you think you've reached, for some more universal journey/experience.

You're also, if you don't me saying so, only part way there, so maybe it's bit early to be showering us all with the fruits of your epiphany.

Anyway, I guess the insightful part of your post is the realisation that success can be judged by different standards and across various lengths of time.

Arsenal are the model Levy has tried to follow.

Sadly for us, we're attempting to do it in the time of billionaire backers and the Sky Four with the extra financial muscle that implies. Wenger was a visionary, he didn't follow anyone's path, and the reward for that was a decade at the top table.

What's incredible in that context is that we have got to where we have got to.

Our books are balanced, we have a world-class training facility coming on line in the summer, plans for a new stadium (albeit unfunded), our turnover (income) has tripled in five years, and we possess a squad capable of finishing above at least two of our six better funded rivals, two years out of three. A squad moreover, worth many multiples of what we invested in it.

Atm our first team and squad is better than Arsenal's, the key players are signed to long contracts (which is not the case at the Emirates), we have a group of exciting players in their early to mid-twenties coming into their full powers, augmented and mentored by a sprinkling of experience which we picked up for virtually nothing. It is a very good balance and something that the Arsenal team lacks.

Our first team and squad cost far less than Arsenal's, indeed we spend something like £30m a year less than them each year on our player's wages (which is double our average annual transfer expenditure.).

So despite spending less, starting from much further back, not benefiting from a decade of CL revenues, being less profitable with a far smaller turnover, we have overhauled them.

Which is the reality.

You make an interesting point about the sustainability of our success without the income stream a larger stadium guarantees. And you are also correct to point out that it's far from certain we'll be able to balance the investment required to keep the squad competitive as well as find the finance for the new stadium. This will be a challenge, and it is one that Arsenal have met with aplomb.

Their long-term prospects therefore, are better than ours.

But they were better in each year we've been chasing them down. They were better last year and the year before, and they were better this year, the year in which we surpassed them.

We may not succeed in over-taking them over the longer-term, we may well look back at this period as a high water-mark.

But we may not.

I think it's that which you've failed to grasp and which has skewed your OP.

hahaha you know what you all win....

I give up trying to get my point across....

The positive bandwagon is so much fun even it is wrong.... Let’s all just pretend and be happy (Occasionally) we have for the last how many years...

Just a quick post-script, you could have written and titled your piece far less provocatively. I understand why you didn't. It was supposed to be provocative and by being so it got us all talking. But therefore it's pretty disingenuous of you to get all sensitive when funnily enough it does provoke, isn't it?

 

[StartingPrice]

I agree with some of what you say. Last week in the Darren Lewis thread I said:

"Their defence and more accurately how they defend is their Achilles heel. But if we are spending all our time in out half we aren't going to test it enough."

But I also pointed out that they still generally press and close down better than we do, and IMO play a better endemic brand of football than we do - in as much as it is based on an intrinsic belief in playing with the ball, passing and intelligent movement and they manage to apply it more frequently than we do.

I agree that they/Wenger does not pay enough attention to the tactics of defending - but I think some of the problems they have had has been about the injuries and unavailability of players who play defensive roles like Sagna, , Cliche, Vermalen, Song, Diaby etc. We look bloody fragile at times, imagine if we lost Kaboul, King, Parker, Sandro, Walker all at the same time.

A few years ago they became the only side to go unbeaten through a season. Hardly suggests the bloke is a complete defensive dimwit.

The OP was a bit hyperbolic. In terms of personnel we are pretty much there, maybe even marginally better off. In terms of playing we have hit their quality on several occasions in spurts and on at least 3 full games.

But we are a very, very long way from being close to achieving what they have in terms of consistency of ethos & consistency of performance and footballing achievement or trophies - just recently.

In terms of off the field we are also a very long way behind them in terms of Stadium & revenue and all relating facets.

But we are extremely well run, possibly more shrewdly than any other club and hopefully when the stadium arrives we shall be very close to Arsenal in all facets "off field". But until that happens, the OP makes a reasonably valid point, that in many ways, Arsenal are superior to us.

They bought Cliche back :shrug:

No, but going through a season unbeaten does suggest that Whinger inherited (possibly) the top back 4 in the country and were still benefitting from that that season.

They only managed to achieve consitency of ethos by stealing ours - bunch of hoofing numpty no-marks :wink:

The OP makes some valid points - but, as I explained in my response, he way overplays it, as he doesn't mention developments and intiiatives like out training complex and our Strategic Club Relationships, etc. He ignores the fact that Levy has expressely learned from their errors - especially in the way to translit atmosphere in a stadium. He also persists in accepting that we will have no money for transfers, even though Levy has made it clear several times that we do, and has expressely stated that the money for the stadium is hedged and, therfore, has no bearing on transfer funds.

In short, he has grossly overstated his argument, in order to turn a general observation about the Goons acumen into a bizarre diatribe about how far ahead of us (he believes) they are.

 

[StartingPrice]

Hahaha, well i guess you could take it that way. However, my post on page 2 was one of the longest in this thread and the fact i sat and took the time to put it together when before then, nobody had really given him a decent reply, for him to ignore it wound me up.

I enjoy your long winded italicised hyphenated-posts :grin:

:up:

I was gonna add BC and Sloth-Boy (who's just come outta the woodwork ^^^), but thought they might go into a huff...or summit.

 

[Coyboy]

I agree with some of what you say. Last week in the Darren Lewis thread I said:

"Their defence and more accurately how they defend is their Achilles heel. But if we are spending all our time in out half we aren't going to test it enough."

But I also pointed out that they still generally press and close down better than we do, and IMO play a better endemic brand of football than we do - in as much as it is based on an intrinsic belief in playing with the ball, passing and intelligent movement and they manage to apply it more frequently than we do.

I agree that they/Wenger does not pay enough attention to the tactics of defending - but I think some of the problems they have had has been about the injuries and unavailability of players who play defensive roles like Sagna, , Cliche, Vermalen, Song, Diaby etc. We look bloody fragile at times, imagine if we lost Kaboul, King, Parker, Sandro, Walker all at the same time.

A few years ago they became the only side to go unbeaten through a season. Hardly suggests the bloke is a complete defensive dimwit.

The OP was a bit hyperbolic. In terms of personnel we are pretty much there, maybe even marginally better off. In terms of playing we have hit their quality on several occasions in spurts and on at least 3 full games.

But we are a very, very long way from being close to achieving what they have in terms of consistency of ethos & consistency of performance and footballing achievement or trophies - just recently.

In terms of off the field we are also a very long way behind them in terms of Stadium & revenue and all relating facets.

But we are extremely well run, possibly more shrewdly than any other club and hopefully when the stadium arrives we shall be very close to Arsenal in all facets "off field". But until that happens, the OP makes a reasonably valid point, that in many ways, Arsenal are superior to us.

If you felt the OP was so full of shit, why not reply to that post, instead mine ? I thought you were all for "pathetic vendetta variation" ?

Because I didn't want to and specifically agreed with your point about coaching.

Getting ready to leave for the game but I never said he was a defensive dimwit but has become very weak and, I think, stubborn in not addressing key defensive areas of the pitch like a pivot midfielder, centre backs and keeper.

Even the most ardent Arsenal fan will tell you that.

 

[vegassd]

So if someone said to you for let’s say 6-7 years we too wouldn’t win a trophy but get to a few finals, and qualify for the champions league every season but at the end of it have a club/business in the same position as them now would you take it?

I would snap their hand off…….

So Arsenal have gone from being a team that won the league in an unbeaten season to be a one-man team who are hoping for 4th place. I see the points you are making, but however you cut it thy have been in steady decline for the past 6/7 years.

They play nice football but take away the 25 league goals that RvP has scored and they would start to look like QPR.

Stick a more solid manager into the Chelsea team this year or have either Carroll or Suarez get a decent goal return and Arsenal would not have much of a chance at qualifying for the CL.

 

[Spurrific]

Because I didn't want to and specifically agreed with your point about coaching.

Getting ready to leave for the game but I never said he was a defensive dimwit but has become very weak and, I think, stubborn in not addressing key defensive areas of the pitch like a pivot midfielder, centre backs and keeper.

Even the most ardent Arsenal fan will tell you that.

Well... Will you tell us that... Antlesh?

[yt]y8Kyi0WNg40[/yt]

 

[Spurger King]

:lol: