What ambition & winning mentality can also mean

[JimmyG2]

It won't be the fans that move the goalpost.
We will all be delighted but a recent blog of mine was entitled
'Obviously this one won't count'
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/3259273396080016599/232217296544549882
especially this year when so much has been disrupted by Covid,
We got a bye in the Carabao, its only single leg in the semi-final, and a very favourable draw .
The goalposts will have been removed entirely and cut up for logs for OAP's
long before whichever finals we get to
Let alone win.(I know they're metal but don't lets spoil a good image)

We have been asked a classic false dilemma question the 'Would you rather' one
like the old would you rather ' play well and lose: play poorly and win'.
Playing poorly however you define it is tedious, anti football and anti Spurs
and crucially unlikely to win anything in the long term
though with a favourable head wind we might pull off a Cup triumph
which is less demanding and therefore less prestigeous than winning a 38 game Premier League title.
or indeed the Champions' League trophy.

I recall the apocryphal Jermaine Jenas story which has the archetypal moving the goalposts template.

JJ scores a perfect hat-trick and clears two off the line as the opponents press.
He is awarded MOM and donates his match fee to charity
An old Spurs fan puffs on his fag, spits and says
'Aye but can he do it every week'

 

[13VanDerBale13]

No because we play like ?

 

[Deleted member 27995]

If you end up being happy with your lot after it's been done the same way for so long you accept it, that's fine I guess.

Personally I'd like change if it meant then getting something more than my lot as a supporter.

The fact you have ambition and winning mentality in your thread title makes me chuckle though - our most recent cup final - the biggest of them all in club football - I'd wager that a large percentage of our own had us beat before we kicked a ball.

Not sure there is a lot else to say.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Ask yourself this question, is 12 semi finals is enough to wield more than 1 measly trophy? Of course it is!... Or to add some context we haven't even reached an FA Cup final under ENIC whilst the likes of Watford, Southampton, Millwall, West Ham, Cardiff, Portsmouth, Stoke and Hull have, so what's that telling you? I'm not just blaming the managers, ENIC have to take their fare share of the blame for that but we've all had better teams/squads than those teams so why haven't we at least equaled to what those teams have done?

Is it telling me it’s the fans mentality that gives the club an excuse not to push on? No it’s not, which was your argument on the original post is based on. I don’t think Daniel Levy is being held back on his quest to win FA cups, league titles by fans who just want pretty football.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Im a guy who has seen us lift one FA Cup and two League Cups in 30 years. I want us to win a trophy but I see all this as a big picture approach. Id like us to build something, I look at Liverpool who went on to build something which then reaped trophies. Id like us to do the same.

No point in winning a league cup to only then revert back to thinking the job is done. I want progression in terms of how we are building a strong team for now and future success. Im not placing winning a trophy above us progressing and building something a bit more sustainable and sustained success. I mean Ramos won us something but i dont think of that period fondly. I dont think of Graham winning us the Worthington Cup and thinking God that was a great time.

Liverpool unfortunately is the blueprint for us.

My view as well. It was a great to beat Chelsea That year and take the cup home but I was over that league cup win the weekend after when we went up to Saint Andrews and got turned over by an awful Birmingham team. When anyone says winning a league/FA cup is going to propel us to more success I’m sceptical especially the way the team has been playing for the last year and a half.

 

[Blake Griffin]

if we win the league cup this season it will have taken us a grand total of four games, two of which coming against championship opposition. just because you get a pot at the end of it doesn't erase that it's still just four games. i'd rather see us competing at the top over the course of a 38 game season, the dire football i can just about accept if there's potential for something big at the end of it - which for me, a league cup is not.

 

[Shadydan]

Is it telling me it’s the fans mentality that gives the club an excuse not to push on? No it’s not, which was your argument on the original post is based on. I don’t think Daniel Levy is being held back on his quest to win FA cups, league titles by fans who just want pretty football.

Yeah the point I was making was that the OP's sentiments about our club needs to change because there is an air of self entitlement for a fan of a club who are general paupers when it comes to picking up pots, we should embrace the lesser competitions because to push on as a club we need to start winning and if the clubs adopts the same mentality as some of the fans we'll be going nowhere fast which is evidence of the past few years.

It's imperative that we create the culture of winning.

 

[idontgetit]

So many people look at this in such a binary manner - you are either 100% Poch approach or 100% Jose

in terms of success this season - winning the league cup and not getting top 4 would not be success as much as I would love to win the league cup after 13 years, the reason being that we have a team and a squad that should be in the top 4.

As far as entertaining football is concerned, I am 52 years old and I have never seen us win the title. I have have only seen us challenge for the title 4 times in my whole life (twice in the 80s and twice under Poch). If we were to shithouse our way to 38 1-0 boring wins to be crowned champions, I would celebrate so hard that I would probably do myself a serious injury. I want to win the title far more than I want to be entertained by Ginola/Gazzza/Hoddle/etc etc type football.

I have no problem playing counter attacking football, and it has worked.

HOWEVER - we shot ourselves in booth feet against palace and wolves in particular, because we are far better player for player and had we not sat back, we could and should have got the second goal. That’s all been gone over in the match thread.

So, its not a case of one approach or another.

1. Play counter attacking football when we need to as we have the players who can really hurt the opposition
2. sit back and defend a lead when we need to, all the game management stuff, but don’t do it for 85 mins FFS
3. a 1-0 lead allows absolutely no room whatsoever for any kind of error
4. practice defending set pieces for 5 hours every day until they get it
5. when playing inferior opposition 1-0 will often not be enough - see point 3 and 4 above.

PS - agree, lay off Windy. He has an opinion, and he is entitled to it. The toxic nature of some of our fans makes me sick - see also the treatment of Bergwijn after the Liverpool game.

Great post. Just to add some extra justification to your point #3, we simply do not have a world class back four and have to expect that even if they play their hearts out they might ship a goal. Fortunately we have world class forwards who you'd back to score a couple of goals against anyone if given the chance.

 

[HedgieSpur]

if we win the league cup this season it will have taken us a grand total of four games, two of which coming against championship opposition. just because you get a pot at the end of it doesn't erase that it's still just four games. i'd rather see us competing at the top over the course of a 38 game season, the dire football i can just about accept if there's potential for something big at the end of it - which for me, a league cup is not.

Each to their own n all that but I find this "logic" fucking barmy mate. I cant fathom how any fan, let alone a Spurts fan could have such a warped view of winning trophies.

 

[Shadydan]

if we win the league cup this season it will have taken us a grand total of four games, two of which coming against championship opposition. just because you get a pot at the end of it doesn't erase that it's still just four games. i'd rather see us competing at the top over the course of a 38 game season, the dire football i can just about accept if there's potential for something big at the end of it - which for me, a league cup is not.

All subjective I know but to counter that do you think the likes of Harry Kane is gonna give a fudge about that when he's lifting the trophy or do you think he's gonna be proud that we won the runners up trophy to add to his 2016/17 collection when it comes to negotiation time?, Same way do you think anyone is gonna remember that Spurs got a bye and beat Championship fodder in 10 years time when they see our name next to the Carabao Cup winners?

 

[idontgetit]

Yeah the point I was making was that the OP's sentiments about our club needs to change because there is an air of self entitlement for a fan of a club who are general paupers when it comes to picking up pots, we should embrace the lesser competitions because to push on as a club we need to start winning and if the clubs adopts the same mentality as some of the fans we'll be going nowhere fast which is evidence of the past few years.

It's imperative that we create the culture of winning.

I think maybe you guys aren't in as much disagreement as you think. The criticism of the League Cup is mostly because it is being used as justification for an utterly dire style of football than is actually costing us points. I'm pretty sure everyone wants to see us compete for every single cup we can and foster that wining mentality.

 

[Blake Griffin]

All subjective I know but to counter that do you think the likes of Harry Kane is gonna give a fudge about that when he's lifting the trophy or do you think he's gonna be proud that we won the runners up trophy to add to his 2016/17 collection when it comes to negotiation time?, Same way do you think anyone is gonna remember that Spurs got a bye and beat Championship fodder in 10 years time when they see our name next to the Carabao Cup winners?

in the moment i'm sure harry will be delighted but it's not a lasting feeling, it won't be enough to keep him content if we're doing fuck all in the big competitions. in 10 years time no one will remember that we got a bye, likewise though no one outside of spurs fans will remember or care that we won it or who we beat. can you remember who won the last 10 fa or league cups? do you look upon juande ramos' reign as spurs manager more favourably to pochettino's? the best feeling i've had as a spurs fan was lucas' winner against ajax, we didn't get a trophy for it but it still tops winning the carling cup in 2008 for me.

 

[idontgetit]

All subjective I know but to counter that do you think the likes of Harry Kane is gonna give a fudge about that when he's lifting the trophy or do you think he's gonna be proud that we won the runners up trophy to add to his 2016/17 collection when it comes to negotiation time?, Same way do you think anyone is gonna remember that Spurs got a bye and beat Championship fodder in 10 years time when they see our name next to the Carabao Cup winners?

Two different things.

A) Kane is going to want that trophy like a fat kid wants chips. Of course he does and of course we do and of course no one will care if it was easy when looking back in a few years time.

B) Kane is also going to want to believe that we can win trophies like the FA cup and EL and compete for the Prem and the CL. There is utterly no fucking chance of that happening if we play like we did against Wolves even though we can probably win the League Cup that way.

A is not enough without B, for the fans or the players. Yet people are justifying the approach against Wolves (and numerous other games) on the basis of winning the league cup.

 

[Dannyspur]

We are still in 3 cups and the race for the prem - even with the 'crap' we are playing.

 

[Shadydan]

in the moment i'm sure harry will be delighted but it's not a lasting feeling, it won't be enough to keep him content if we're doing fuck all in the big competitions. in 10 years time no one will remember that we got a bye, likewise though no one outside of spurs fans will remember or care that we won it or who we beat. can you remember who won the last 10 fa or league cups? do you look upon juande ramos' reign as spurs manager more favourably to pochettino's? the best feeling i've had as a spurs fan was lucas' winner against ajax, we didn't get a trophy for it but it still tops winning the carling cup in 2008 for me.

Well he did actually say that if we're not progressing in the right direction then he would most probably leave, I don't think he vales playing pretty football and having nothing to show for it as progression, he did that for the past 6 years, the next step is winning. That's a false ultimatum as well, we don't have to win the smaller cups to forsake doing anything in the bigger comps, we were leading the league a couple of weeks ago, again that's general progression to anything we've ever done previously in the Premier League era - if we can marry the both as in possibly winning a Cup and progress in the league that will show the right sign of progression.

Of course people/pundits/fans outside of Spurs will remember that we won it as it's part of history and people can no longer use the haven't won anything rhetoric. I had a great feeling watching Poch's matches and loved the CL nights like the semi final against Ajax but what I remember more is us walking past that trophy Son and Poch balling their eyes out and Liverpool lifting it, that is lodged in my memory more than anything and I want to change that.

 

[dontcallme]

The bigger picture is CL qualification and participation does more for your club.

But you have win something sometimes. In Poch’s 1st season I was happy with 5th place. IMO he outdid himself by getting us CL qualification 3 years in a row.

This is Mourinho’s first full season with us. I would love top four but I am also desperate to see the likes of Kane and Son win something.

I would be happy with top 4 or a trophy this season. Next season we have to start performing better.

 

[Shadydan]

Two different things.

A) Kane is going to want that trophy like a fat kid wants chips. Of course he does and of course we do and of course no one will care if it was easy when looking back in a few years time.

B) Kane is also going to want to believe that we can win trophies like the FA cup and EL and compete for the Prem and the CL. There is utterly no fucking chance of that happening if we play like we did against Wolves even though we can probably win the League Cup that way.

A is not enough without B, for the fans or the players. Yet people are justifying the approach against Wolves (and numerous other games) on the basis of winning the league cup.

Why can't we have both then? Is it impossible to win the Carabao Cup which IMO would essentially set us on our way to bigger and better things and to push on for the bigger trophies?

Also why have you accepted that these recent performances are gonna be the standard for Spurs?

 

[idontgetit]

Why can't we have both then? Is it impossible to win the Carabao Cup which IMO would essentially set us on our way to bigger and better things and to push on for the bigger trophies?

Also why have you accepted that these recent performances are gonna be the standard for Spurs?

After the last few games I think it's really clear that Mourinho wants us to play in a certain way. That style doesn't suit our squad options and turns almost every game into a coin flip. Coin flips are not a bad way to go against the like of Liverpool and City but it's terrible against sides with weaker squads.

This isn't a temporary measure, it's clearly the way Mourinho wants to play. He values midfielders with the attributes of Sissoko and Winks over midfielders with the attributes of Lo Celso and N'dombele. If we sign another creative player, they won't be getting a start over the likes of Winks or Sissoko. They'll compete with the other creative midfielders for that single creative midfield slot.

This is clear from the way the midfielders are clearly being coached, his comments on Alli's passing, his choice of starting line-ups and substitutions from the options available and especially from his post-match comments.

The mentality of the side once we score a goal is defensive and negative. Our defensive players are not good enough to consistently keep clean sheets, no matter how many of them you put on the pitch, and therefore becoming negative and defensive after going ahead will regularly backfire on us. The more negative and defensive we get, the more impossible it becomes for us to score again and the more confident opposing teams get to commit players to our box. Even if you defend perfectly you can still concede through bad luck and the odds get worse and worse the longer the game goes on.

 

[Thewobbler]

I want the league cup just so these lot get that winning feeling and they push on.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Yeah the point I was making was that the OP's sentiments about our club needs to change because there is an air of self entitlement for a fan of a club who are general paupers when it comes to picking up pots, we should embrace the lesser competitions because to push on as a club we need to start winning and if the clubs adopts the same mentality as some of the fans we'll be going nowhere fast which is evidence of the past few years.

It's imperative that we create the culture of winning.

I do get your point and I’d love to see us lift any trophy and especially for some of the players who have done the hard slog and fallen just short but I don’t see it as self entitlement if some fans don’t see it as the pathway to going anywhere or a sign that we’re a better side. Let’s hope we find out anyway.