What ambition & winning mentality can also mean

[SpursD22]

I didn’t know where to put it so I started a new thread instead

I’m writing this post because I want some people to see what ambition & winning mentality can mean from a different angle
As usual there’s been a lot of talks about our title drought and winning mentality and that Jose was hired to fix these problems, and a lot of people have debated on what winning a title would mean to us. I could be very wrong but I thought Levy sacked Poch and got Jose was to take us to the next level. And for me that means winning the biggest trophies (PL & CL). With Poch we got to a CL final and a title race. Jose has imo the best squad we’ve had in years and he’s been backed, but now a league cup win would mean he’s done his job and has done more for us than Poch? For me that’s taking a step back, tell me this, If Poch had won the League Cup final in 2015 but never taken us to CL final or even top 4, would his legacy for us been better? If Poch wins trophies except the CL at PSG has he done a better job than he did for us? If we won the League cup this season but finished outside top 4 would you take it? Arsenal have won the FA Cup a couple of times these last few years and also got in to the top 4 but their fans was still unhappy, now with Arteta they’ve won the Cup but he’s clearly not done a good job. I’m not saying I wouldn’t be happy if we won the League cup, of course I would but that doesn’t take the club to the next level. We even won it in 2008 but it did nothing for us as a club. I understand that we’re tired of not winning anything and tired of others laughing at us for not winning anything but winning a league cup won’t drastically make us a better team and bigger club

For me Poch perfectly fitted in in our club motto ‘To Dare Is To Do’ he pushed the club as far as he could, even though we didn’t have the squad for it he still tried to win the biggest trophies and also came close. Yes he didn’t win anything but he showed ambition and he dared to believe. With Jose it’s like winning the League cup would be enough when it shouldn’t. Even the Europa League (which I would love for us to win) we shouldn’t even be in the competition in the first place. Jose always talks about winning mentality and we all know what he’s won in the past but for me he’s not acting like a winner. The way he sets us up is like we’re the underdog in every game. I don’t feel like opponents fear us like they should do. We’re acting like every team we play is Bayern Munich and show them so much respect. Players like Son & Kane who are 2 of the best attacking players in the world, doesn’t that make them feel worse as a player instead of trusting their abilities and play to their strengths, and make the opponent fear us instead we play them like regular players, hearing Jose always talks about the other team and what great players they have when them 2 is one of the best in the world?

For me showing ambition means trying to be the best you can possibly be, go toe for toe against the best even if you fail. That to me is winning mentality, even if you’re not as good as the opponent, play you’re heart out and try to beat them. This season in terms of quality has to be top 5 worst in a very long time. Liverpool has so many injuries, City isn’t as good as they was, United, Arsenal and Chelsea have managers who isn’t good enough, everyone is dropping points. This is the best chance at winning the league in a long time but we won’t take it. We have a very good keeper who has won the World Cup, Finally a DM again, Ndombele who is absolute class, 2 of the best attackers in the world, a manager who is one of the best of all time. So why aren’t we seriously challenging, why aren’t we approaching every game like we’re the one who’s trying to win the league? I’m not saying we should win it but you need to show that you will do every thing you can to try and win it. Conte won the league in his first season in a country he’s never been in before so there shouldn’t be any excuses to why we can’t be at least close to winning it

Even last season I remember how incredibly disappointed I was in Jose. We’re 3-0 down in total away to Leipzig at halftime without Son & Kane. Instead of trying your absolute best and believe we can turn it around he decided to park the bus and keep the numbers down. The season before that we were almost in the same situation, 3-0 down in total away to Ajax. Without Kane and couple of other players. Instead of keeping the numbers down we went for it and believed and it paid of. I don’t want to see my club ever not believe, and with someone like Jose I was very disappointed to see that. I just want to see Jose & the team really believe we can win the league, play to our strengths, make the opponent fear us. To be the best you need to win the biggest trophies not a “regular” cup. We built a big stadium to match the team we want to be

Btw I just want to make it very clear that of course I would be happy if we won any trophy but I’m just saying imo being ambitious is to go for the biggest trophies


And also one last thing I’m tired of seeing people like Windy get abused and called a fake fan on social media because he looks at the sport football differently from others. I think he said something in the lines of he would rather see us play peak Poch football than playing boring and winning a league cup. I’m not saying I agree with him but to call him a fake fan because he has a different opinion is ridiculous. And many agrees with him, I’ve seen a lot of people say that they’ve either stopped watching the game or will stop if we continue to play like this. People forget that this sport is meant to entertain us and if people isn’t getting entertained they have the right to say so. If I’m being honest I enjoy football much less than I used to, with social media everything has become toxic and football has become win at all cost instead of the beauty of it. People on social media moaning about everything and it’s like everyone needs to have the same opinions or else you’re a fake fan or stupid.

Last game against Wolves I complained about how boring the game is and my sister told me why do you even watch it then? Why are you wasting your time on something you find boring? And in reality it’s true even though there’s more to that, tbh I might just follow the scores instead of watching the game and torturing myself. But yeah what I wanted to say is that people have different opinions and look at things differently from others, that doesn’t mean they’re a less fan than others



Please comment what you think of what I said, your thoughts on this whole trophy thing and how you feel about football today



To Dare Is To Do. COYS

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I’d be happy with no top 4 but CL qualification.
I would not be super happy with no CL but league cup trophy. I’m not going to comment too much on Pochettino because I don’t see the purpose in going on and on about him a year later. But I see pluses and minuses there, not only glorification.

 

[Shadydan]

Sorry but I felt myself getting really triggered reading this, I mean fair play for going into detail but this post just typifies the kind of attitude of many Spurs fans, it's a loser mentality which is seemingly synonymous with Tottenham and manifests itself around the club and gives the club an excuse to not push on and it really pisses me off. Right about now the attitude that the club ought to be adopting is that we need to win something, anything - Carabao or Europa or even the league it really doesn't matter and to me the fans should be adopting that same mentality. Turning your nose up at the Carabao cup is just utter nonsense, the Carabao was the first trophy that Jose won with Chelsea and it set them on their way, who the fek are we to to turn that down, unbelievable.

Edit - Also I don't know where people get this thing about the lack of quality in this league, why do people only count the top 6 when they make this argument and ignore the rest of the league where the majority have obviously improved which is why you're getting some of the midtable teams being able to mix it with the top traditional top teams.

 

[SpursD22]

Sorry but I felt myself getting really triggered reading this, I mean fair play for going into detail but this post just typifies the kind of attitude of many Spurs fans, it's a loser mentality which is seemingly synonymous with Tottenham and manifests itself around the club and gives the club an excuse to not push on and it really pisses me off. Right about now the attitude that the club ought to be adopting is that we need to win something, anything - Carabao or Europa or even the league it really doesn't matter and to me the fans should be adopting that same mentality. Turning your nose up at the Carabao cup is just utter nonsense, the Carabao was the first trophy that Jose won with Chelsea and it set them on their way, who the fek are we to to turn that down, unbelievable.

Edit - Also I don't know where people get this thing about the lack of quality in this league, why do people only count the top 6 when they make this argument and ignore the rest of the league where the majority have obviously improved which is why you're getting some of the midtable teams being able to mix it with the top traditional top teams.

As I said of course I would love us to win the league cup but I’m just saying that
1) We should expect more and not say it was a great season if we win it

2) We should compete for the biggest trophies not just the cups. And again of course I would love us to win it

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

When I say that I’m not fussed about winning the league cup, I think football and most importantly continental club footie has changed since Mourinho first won it. Now, CL participation does much more for the club that winning the league cup. When we entered the competition in 2016, it propelled the club forward. So for me, getting back into CL far outshines League Cup.

 

[Shadydan]

As I said of course I would love us to win the league cup but I’m just saying that
1) We should expect more and not say it was a great season if we win it

2) We should compete for the biggest trophies not just the cups. And again of course I would love us to win it

Winning the Carabao cup is 'expecting more' than what we have ever achieved in the last 13 years, where exactly has the entitlement come from?

But who said we aren't competing with the biggest trophies as well as going for the Carabao and FA Cup? You're making this an either/or scenario just to suit your argument, I feel like I've heard this narrative being pushed my those who don't like Jose that if we win the Carabao cup it's not enough when in reality their just moving the goalposts to near impossible targets based on their agenda.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Sorry but I felt myself getting really triggered reading this, I mean fair play for going into detail but this post just typifies the kind of attitude of many Spurs fans, it's a loser mentality which is seemingly synonymous with Tottenham and manifests itself around the club and gives the club an excuse to not push on and it really pisses me off. Right about now the attitude that the club ought to be adopting is that we need to win something, anything - Carabao or Europa or even the league it really doesn't matter and to me the fans should be adopting that same mentality. Turning your nose up at the Carabao cup is just utter nonsense, the Carabao was the first trophy that Jose won with Chelsea and it set them on their way, who the fek are we to to turn that down, unbelievable.

Edit - Also I don't know where people get this thing about the lack of quality in this league, why do people only count the top 6 when they make this argument and ignore the rest of the league where the majority have obviously improved which is why you're getting some of the midtable teams being able to mix it with the top traditional top teams.

the first cup in a club with a chairman who was willing to bankroll him with the best players available in which going by your rationale is a weaker league on the whole? The Mentality starts at the top with the chairman, I love the idea it’s the fans attitude holding Daniel Levy and the gang back from winning trophies.

I would say every Tottenham fan wants us to win trophies Just that maybe some fans dont think it’s more likely doing it this way than another, but yeah something something agenda. We might win the league cup as we’ve got a favourable draw, but I’m not confident and I’m even less confident we’ll follow it up with anything else. It’s the almost certainty in people talking about him winning things here that gets me and you talk about entitlement

 

[Shadydan]

the first cup in a club with a chairman who was willing to bankroll him with the best players available in which going by your rationale is a weaker league on the whole? The Mentality starts at the top with the chairman, I love the idea it’s the fans attitude holding Daniel Levy and the gang back from winning trophies.

I would say every Tottenham fan wants us to win trophies Just that maybe some fans dont think it’s more likely doing it this way than another, but yeah something something agenda. We might win the league cup as we’ve got a favourable draw, but I’m not confident and I’m even less confident we’ll follow it up with anything else. It’s the almost certainty in people talking about him winning things here that gets me and you talk about entitlement

The same mentality that this ENIC has got us to 12 semi finals in various competitions in their time so who's fault is it for not pushing on and winning at least one of those? You're using an excuse that the owners haven't provided the platform to win or succeed when there's teams out there with nowhere near our budget (Swansea, Portsmouth, Birmingham, Leicester, Wigan) who have outperformed us in terms of picking up pots recently, it's a weak excuse and if you believe that it's kind of embarrassing and borderline delusional.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Winning the Carabao cup is 'expecting more' than what we have ever achieved in the last 13 years, where exactly has the entitlement come from?

But who said we aren't competing with the biggest trophies as well as going for the Carabao and FA Cup? You're making this an either/or scenario just to suit your argument, I feel like I've heard this narrative being pushed my those who don't like Jose that if we win the Carabao cup it's not enough when in reality their just moving the goalposts to near impossible targets based on their agenda.

100% agree with this. Under Jose, we are just 2 wins from a trophy and to me, it appears that some fans are trying to move the goalposts ("yeah its a trophy but its not a REAL trophy") lest it become apparent that in doing so, Jose would have been more successful than previous managers.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

@SpursD22 , that’s a great post.

I believe if you aim to be the best you possibly can be as a football team, trophies will come as a result of that. Provided you’re good enough.

Making trophies the sole object is aiming slightly lower. It‘s not aiming to be as good as possible. It’s aiming to be good enough.

The arguments occur because for far too long we haven’t been good enough, so it sounds to some people as though aiming to be as good as possible is aiming too low.

But if you look at the best teams ever, Barca or Real Madrid at their peak for example, they didn’t just aim to win trophies. They aimed to be as good as possible, better than last year, every year, knowing that trophies would be the automatic and inevitable result.

Thsts where we want to get to. Carabao cups and the like are not our target, and nor are the biggest trophies of all. They are all stepping stones if we are really aiming for the very top.

And we should be aiming to reach the very top, and that means being better than the last team that was the best. Trophies are just signs of how good you are.

 

[Dov67]

So many people look at this in such a binary manner - you are either 100% Poch approach or 100% Jose

in terms of success this season - winning the league cup and not getting top 4 would not be success as much as I would love to win the league cup after 13 years, the reason being that we have a team and a squad that should be in the top 4.

As far as entertaining football is concerned, I am 52 years old and I have never seen us win the title. I have have only seen us challenge for the title 4 times in my whole life (twice in the 80s and twice under Poch). If we were to shithouse our way to 38 1-0 boring wins to be crowned champions, I would celebrate so hard that I would probably do myself a serious injury. I want to win the title far more than I want to be entertained by Ginola/Gazzza/Hoddle/etc etc type football.

I have no problem playing counter attacking football, and it has worked.

HOWEVER - we shot ourselves in booth feet against palace and wolves in particular, because we are far better player for player and had we not sat back, we could and should have got the second goal. That’s all been gone over in the match thread.

So, its not a case of one approach or another.

1. Play counter attacking football when we need to as we have the players who can really hurt the opposition
2. sit back and defend a lead when we need to, all the game management stuff, but don’t do it for 85 mins FFS
3. a 1-0 lead allows absolutely no room whatsoever for any kind of error
4. practice defending set pieces for 5 hours every day until they get it
5. when playing inferior opposition 1-0 will often not be enough - see point 3 and 4 above.

PS - agree, lay off Windy. He has an opinion, and he is entitled to it. The toxic nature of some of our fans makes me sick - see also the treatment of Bergwijn after the Liverpool game.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Carabao cups and the like are not our target, and nor are the biggest trophies of all. They are all stepping stones if we are really aiming for the very top.

eh? Come again?

 

[hellava_tough]

I think this is a fair pointless discussion (no offence OP) as it's extremely rare that a coach prioritizes the league over a cup win, to the extent that a severely weakened team is selected in a cup game that has no chance of winning.

In reality, every coach aims to win every game, selects teams accordingly, and then assesses what they achieved at the end of the season.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

 

[Stamford]

We talk about the mentality of our team a lot but the mentality of our fans annoys me so much. Pochettino embodies the club mottos yet he didn't win anything? That's the problem

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

The same mentality that this ENIC has got us to 12 semi finals in various competitions in their time so who's fault is it for not pushing on and winning at least one of those? You're using an excuse that the owners haven't provided the platform to win or succeed when there's teams out there with nowhere near our budget (Swansea, Portsmouth, Birmingham, Leicester, Wigan) who have outperformed us in terms of picking up pots recently, it's a weak excuse and if you believe that it's kind of embarrassing and borderline delusional.

Is 12 semi finals in 20 years for a club of our size and revenue that amazing? and they are the one constant. So you credit ENIC for getting to 12 semis but then blame the various managers for not getting further. They obviously priorities CL money, with ENIC managers are only in trouble if the fail to qualify for CL or EL does that not tell you what Levy’s mentality is and the objectives of the managers he hires. I would call you delusional but then it would seem like my argument was not strong enough on its own.

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

Definitely not the best squad we've had in years.

 

[shelfboy68]

We talk about the mentality of our team a lot but the mentality of our fans annoys me so much. Pochettino embodies the club mottos yet he didn't win anything? That's the problem

Poch did have chances to write himself into spurs folklore, he got to two cup finals and the team was poor in both, three other semi finals again the same plus weird decisions from himself contributing.
He also had two attempts at winning the league but folded in both, so the opportunities were there but never taken.

 

[Shadydan]

Is 12 semi finals in 20 years for a club of our size and revenue that amazing and they are the one constant. So you credit ENIC for Providing the platform for getting to 12 semis but then blame the various managers for not getting further. They obviously priorities CL money, with ENIC managers are only in trouble if the fail to qualify for CL or EL does that not tell you what Levy’s mentality is and the objectives of the managers he hires. I would call you delusional but then it would seem like my argument was not strong enough on its own.

Ask yourself this question, is 12 semi finals is enough to wield more than 1 measly trophy? Of course it is!... Or to add some context we haven't even reached an FA Cup final under ENIC whilst the likes of Watford, Southampton, Millwall, West Ham, Cardiff, Portsmouth, Stoke and Hull have, so what's that telling you? I'm not just blaming the managers, ENIC have to take their fare share of the blame for that but we've all had better teams/squads than those teams so why haven't we at least equaled to what those teams have done?

 

[JCRD]

Im a guy who has seen us lift one FA Cup and two League Cups in 30 years. I want us to win a trophy but I see all this as a big picture approach. Id like us to build something, I look at Liverpool who went on to build something which then reaped trophies. Id like us to do the same.

No point in winning a league cup to only then revert back to thinking the job is done. I want progression in terms of how we are building a strong team for now and future success. Im not placing winning a trophy above us progressing and building something a bit more sustainable and sustained success. I mean Ramos won us something but i dont think of that period fondly. I dont think of Graham winning us the Worthington Cup and thinking God that was a great time.

Liverpool unfortunately is the blueprint for us.