What ambition & winning mentality can also mean

[Spurs_Bear]

I want the league cup just so these lot get that winning feeling and they push on.

Hope it's not like last time where our best players decide to push on to other clubs.

 

[Shadydan]

After the last few games I think it's really clear that Mourinho wants us to play in a certain way. That style doesn't suit our squad options and turns almost every game into a coin flip. Coin flips are not a bad way to go against the like of Liverpool and City but it's terrible against sides with weaker squads.

This isn't a temporary measure, it's clearly the way Mourinho wants to play. He values midfielders with the attributes of Sissoko and Winks over midfielders with the attributes of Lo Celso and N'dombele. If we sign another creative player, they won't be getting a start over the likes of Winks or Sissoko. They'll compete with the other creative midfielders for that single creative midfield slot.

This is clear from the way the midfielders are clearly being coached, his comments on Alli's passing, his choice of starting line-ups and substitutions from the options available and especially from his post-match comments.

The mentality of the side once we score a goal is defensive and negative. Our defensive players are not good enough to consistently keep clean sheets, no matter how many of them you put on the pitch, and therefore becoming negative and defensive after going ahead will regularly backfire on us. The more negative and defensive we get, the more impossible it becomes for us to score again and the more confident opposing teams get to commit players to our box. Even if you defend perfectly you can still concede through bad luck and the odds get worse and worse the longer the game goes on.

Well Firstly it isn't though really though is it, the last few games have been poor granted but do you really think that Jose is happy to cede that much possession only to not have any bite going forward? Do you really think that Jose is happy to play on the counter attack and is happy to have not many counter attack technicians in the squad?

Secondly if the style doesn't suit our squad then you imagine that we'd most probably look to mould the squad to what he wants which means buying the players he wants and selling the players he doesn't want. Considering he's only had 2 windows so far you'd like to think that Levy will most probably give him time to strengthen, I mean despite the last couple of weeks where we've regressed admittedly we've generally progressed as a team since he's been here so I see no reason to think that Levy or the players will have many if any concerns just yet.

But let's not turn discussion about Jose because I'm bored of it - the point was about Kane and whether he sees tangible progress and IMO despite the latest results which is down to bad form we are.

 

[al_pacino]

Definitely not the best squad we've had in years.

The peak Poch of 16/17 was a step above this current squad. The best CB pairing in the league, a strong midfield, Eriksen and Dele at the top of their game and Kane and Son not so far off what they are now. That team performing like they did would be champions this season.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I didn’t know where to put it so I started a new thread instead

Couldn’t it have gone in the Mourinho thread with all the other knives out stuff?

Jose has imo the best squad we’ve had in years and he’s been backed, but now a league cup win would mean he’s done his job and has done more for us than Poch?

This just isn’t true.

​

Yes he didn’t win anything but he showed ambition and he dared to believe.

where have you seen that Jose isn’t ambitious or doesn’t think he can win things with us? Plus, the issue with Pochettino was nothing to do with that, it’s that for an extended period of time he couldn’t get a tune out of the team, and everyone he looked like turning a corner we’d revert back to the stuff that wasn’t working. Only reason he had so much time to address it was because he’d want that goodwill, but it was fast going the way Ramos our Avb in the end.

With Jose it’s like winning the League cup would be enough when it shouldn’t.

Has he said this? Or are you making it up?

Also I don't know where people get this thing about the lack of quality in this league, why do people only count the top 6 when they make this argument and ignore the rest of the league where the majority have obviously improved which is why you're getting some of the midtable teams being able to mix it with the top traditional top teams.

You must be new here ? rhetoric gotta rhetoric, don’t you know that?

Honestly, this place says all the things it criticises the press and pundits for saying, but worse.

 

[Shadydan]

The peak Poch of 16/17 was a step above this current squad. The best CB pairing in the league, a strong midfield, Eriksen and Dele at the top of their game and Kane and Son not so far off what they are now. That team performing like they did would be champions this season.

The first eleven was great but the squad was average.

 

[hellava_tough]

The first eleven was great but the squad was average.

Especially the attacking options.

We had a chance to push on with the squad around that time, but we brought in squad players that were simply not good enough.

It was the beginning of the end of the Poch era, tbh.

 

[dagraham]

We can debate Jose’s tactics all day long ( and this is literally what is happening already in multiples threads), but if anyone thinks the players we have are better than in Poch’s peak years then they need to give their head a wobble.

Poch deserves tremendous credit for what he did ( particularly steering us through the Wembley transition and keeping us competitive) and also getting us to an unlikely CL final while that superior team/squad was on the wane.

However, we won fuck all and went out with a whimper in that final. You could flip things on their head and say if Jose was our manager we would have converted some of those big games into tangible success ( i.e. trophies). You could also muse though on whether Jose would have created a team like Poch did in the first place. Nobody knows.

What I do know is that we won’t be winning the league/CL etc unless Lewis/Levy change their M.O. on the recruitment side, no matter who the manager is. I also know Jose ain’t going anywhere for a while and the season isn’t half way through. We have to accept it won’t be pretty, but his tenure could bring us several trophies before it goes tits up.

And then we can all go back to “daring to believe” ( whatever the fuck that even really means), playing nice football and being every neutrals favourite team, whilst ultimately failing and everything will be right with the world again.

 

[SpursD22]

Poch did have chances to write himself into spurs folklore, he got to two cup finals and the team was poor in both, three other semi finals again the same plus weird decisions from himself contributing.
He also had two attempts at winning the league but folded in both, so the opportunities were there but never taken.

League Cup final 2015 against Chelsea: Poch first season, Walker scored an OG and we got beat by the team that won the league

“Title Challenge” 15/16: We never ever was expected to challenge for the title, the fact that we got to top 4 was huge for us

FA Cup semi 2016 against Chelsea: We were the better team but Chelsea scored freak goals. Also Chelsea brought on Fabregas, Hazard and Costa. Do you know who we brought on? Kyle Walker and Nkoudou. A RB and Nkoudou. Do you see what Poch had to compete with

Title challenge 16/17: We was really good that season, scored the most, conceded the least and got 86 points which would win the league in a couple of others seasons. Chelsea broke the record for most wins in a row with 13, they had the squad depth and we didn’t. Also they didn’t play in Europe that season

FA Cup semi 2018 against United: Okay that one we should’ve won

league cup semis 2019 against Chelsea: We lost on penalties

CL final 2019 against Liverpool: First of all look at the team we had, it’s a miracle we got to the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE final in the first place, and then to concede a penalty after 1 minute against that amazing Liverpool team really made it difficult for

 

[SpursD22]

All subjective I know but to counter that do you think the likes of Harry Kane is gonna give a fudge about that when he's lifting the trophy or do you think he's gonna be proud that we won the runners up trophy to add to his 2016/17 collection when it comes to negotiation time?, Same way do you think anyone is gonna remember that Spurs got a bye and beat Championship fodder in 10 years time when they see our name next to the Carabao Cup winners?

Kane told Jose he wanted to be up there with Messi & Ronaldo. That means he must win the biggest trophies and I can imagine he won’t be very patient for much longer. Of course he and we would be happy to Win the league cup but he wants to win the biggest trophies

 

[Shadydan]

League Cup final 2015 against Chelsea: Poch first season, Walker scored an OG and we got beat by the team that won the league

“Title Challenge” 15/16: We never ever was expected to challenge for the title, the fact that we got to top 4 was huge for us

FA Cup semi 2016 against Chelsea: We were the better team but Chelsea scored freak goals. Also Chelsea brought on Fabregas, Hazard and Costa. Do you know who we brought on? Kyle Walker and Nkoudou. A RB and Nkoudou. Do you see what Poch had to compete with

Title challenge 16/17: We was really good that season, scored the most, conceded the least and got 86 points which would win the league in a couple of others seasons. Chelsea broke the record for most wins in a row with 13, they had the squad depth and we didn’t. Also they didn’t play in Europe that season

FA Cup semi 2018 against United: Okay that one we should’ve won

Yeah I don't he can be blamed for a few of these but the Chelsea 2016/17 match he messed up, this is the infamous match where we played Son at wing back when we had Ben Davies on the bench, we also left Walker on the bench but we should have done better or at least been better prepared, I was at that match and we looked so nervous. Also the Man Utd match in the following season where he started Vorm which was stupid in hindsight because he was at fault for the 2nd goal.

Going out to Gent in the EL was ridiculous, that never should have happened, Utd won the comp that season and they were shit and also getting completely schooled by Allegri in the CL against Juve when we were in control of the tie, in both situations we should have done better.

 

[Shadydan]

Kane told Jose he wanted to be up there with Messi & Ronaldo. That means he must win the biggest trophies and I can imagine he won’t be very patient for much longer. Of course he and we would be happy to Win the league cup but he wants to win the biggest trophies

Again why are you trying to push this either/or scenario so desperately when there's nothing to suggest that we can't compete for both, it's such a tedious/pointless argument.

 

[SpursD22]

Again why are you trying to push this either/or scenario so desperately when there's nothing to suggest that we can't compete for both, it's such a tedious/pointless argument.

There’s no way we will compete playing like this. No way. We will drop more points if Jose don’t learn, look at his United team

 

[shelfboy68]

League Cup final 2015 against Chelsea: Poch first season, Walker scored an OG and we got beat by the team that won the league

“Title Challenge” 15/16: We never ever was expected to challenge for the title, the fact that we got to top 4 was huge for us

FA Cup semi 2016 against Chelsea: We were the better team but Chelsea scored freak goals. Also Chelsea brought on Fabregas, Hazard and Costa. Do you know who we brought on? Kyle Walker and Nkoudou. A RB and Nkoudou. Do you see what Poch had to compete with

Title challenge 16/17: We was really good that season, scored the most, conceded the least and got 86 points which would win the league in a couple of others seasons. Chelsea broke the record for most wins in a row with 13, they had the squad depth and we didn’t. Also they didn’t play in Europe that season

FA Cup semi 2018 against United: Okay that one we should’ve won

league cup semis 2019 against Chelsea: We lost on penalties

CL final 2019 against Liverpool: First of all look at the team we had, it’s a miracle we got to the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE final in the first place, and then to concede a penalty after 1 minute against that amazing Liverpool team really made it difficult for

Title challenge 15/16 the rest of the top five had a season off an opportunity presented itself, but instead a team that was almost relegated the previous year was allowed to win it, I think the team had no belief in itself.
Both the FA cup semi finals we had beaten both of them in the league, but again big game pressure got to the team along with son playing LB which was ridiculous.
CL final again didn't turn up along with no real belief within the club.
No one can expect to win everything but we achieved nothing and that was underachievement in my book.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Kane told Jose he wanted to be up there with Messi & Ronaldo. That means he must win the biggest trophies and I can imagine he won’t be very patient for much longer. Of course he and we would be happy to Win the league cup but he wants to win the biggest trophies

Hmmm, if we are talking about that snippet from All or Nothing that was clearly contrived bollocks, look at how uncomfortable Kane looked to even mention Messi & Ronaldo. We cant use that as proof in my view.

 

[Lumiere]

“Title Challenge” 15/16: We never ever was expected to challenge for the title, the fact that we got to top 4 was huge for us

Yes it was huge getting top 4 that year, but when you consider that Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool and Man Utd all had poor seasons, it was probably the best chance we'll have for a long time to win the league.

league cup semis 2019 against Chelsea: We lost on penalties

That's not painting the full picture at all. We went into that game with a 1-0 lead and proceeded to gift them 2 goals, and were pretty fortunate that Giroud missed a sitter right at the end. Chelsea were easily the better team over both legs.


Under Pochettino we were knocked out of the cups by Gent, Crystal Palace (twice), West Ham and Colchester. As much as I love him, the cups clearly weren't his strong point.

 

[Shadydan]

There’s no way we will compete playing like this. No way. We will drop more points if Jose don’t learn, look at his United team

We were literally 'competing' up until 2 weeks ago and 6 pts from the top

This is quite literally a thinly veiled moan thread about Jose, the more you post the more you expose yourself lol

 

[Ionman34]

@SpursD22 , that’s a great post.

I believe if you aim to be the best you possibly can be as a football team, trophies will come as a result of that. Provided you’re good enough.

Making trophies the sole object is aiming slightly lower. It‘s not aiming to be as good as possible. It’s aiming to be good enough.

The arguments occur because for far too long we haven’t been good enough, so it sounds to some people as though aiming to be as good as possible is aiming too low.

But if you look at the best teams ever, Barca or Real Madrid at their peak for example, they didn’t just aim to win trophies. They aimed to be as good as possible, better than last year, every year, knowing that trophies would be the automatic and inevitable result.

Thsts where we want to get to. Carabao cups and the like are not our target, and nor are the biggest trophies of all. They are all stepping stones if we are really aiming for the very top.

And we should be aiming to reach the very top, and that means being better than the last team that was the best. Trophies are just signs of how good you are.

I’m sorry, aiming to win trophies is a step down in terms of ambition?

Are you for real?

Trophies are the end game. Trophies are the tangible items that show you were the best in the competition they represent.

First time I’ve ever heard that aiming to win trophies showed a lack of the ‘required’ ambition. I mean, I’ve heard some absolute pearlers in my time, used as a stick to beat both manager and board with, but this is on another level.

In a nutshell, we’re lacking ambition by aiming to win things.

I have truly heard it all now.

 

[Stamford]

League Cup final 2015 against Chelsea: Poch first season, Walker scored an OG and we got beat by the team that won the league

“Title Challenge” 15/16: We never ever was expected to challenge for the title, the fact that we got to top 4 was huge for us

FA Cup semi 2016 against Chelsea: We were the better team but Chelsea scored freak goals. Also Chelsea brought on Fabregas, Hazard and Costa. Do you know who we brought on? Kyle Walker and Nkoudou. A RB and Nkoudou. Do you see what Poch had to compete with

Title challenge 16/17: We was really good that season, scored the most, conceded the least and got 86 points which would win the league in a couple of others seasons. Chelsea broke the record for most wins in a row with 13, they had the squad depth and we didn’t. Also they didn’t play in Europe that season

FA Cup semi 2018 against United: Okay that one we should’ve won

league cup semis 2019 against Chelsea: We lost on penalties

CL final 2019 against Liverpool: First of all look at the team we had, it’s a miracle we got to the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE final in the first place, and then to concede a penalty after 1 minute against that amazing Liverpool team really made it difficult for

Some of these we could have won if his in game management was better. I love Poch but he was absolutely terrible in this area

 

[popstar7]

I would sacrifice winning the League Cup if it meant qualifying for the CL next season.

The first FA Cup Final I remember was 1976 and I could tell you the result of every final not just from then on but from the early 60s up to the early 2000s. Probably most of the players who scored too in the 70s and 80s. But I haven't seen a league or FA cup final in years - couldn't even tell you who played or won for most of them (other than 2009 and 2015 obviously).

The best teams haven't taken those competitions seriously since the Champions League expanded in the early-2000s so inevitably winning them means less. And I don't buy that winning one of them instills some mythical 'winning mentality' either. Arsenal's decline over ten years has been marked by four (I think) cup wins. No instilling of 'winning mentality' there in the competitions where it really counts.

It's a shame but it's just reality. The league and CL are the apex of football now; win or do well in those and that's the true measure of success and ambition at the top of the game. The League and FA Cups - nice if you win them but basically a sideshow to the main events.

 

[dontcallme]

I didn’t know where to put it so I started a new thread instead

I’m writing this post because I want some people to see what ambition & winning mentality can mean from a different angle
As usual there’s been a lot of talks about our title drought and winning mentality and that Jose was hired to fix these problems, and a lot of people have debated on what winning a title would mean to us. I could be very wrong but I thought Levy sacked Poch and got Jose was to take us to the next level. And for me that means winning the biggest trophies (PL & CL). With Poch we got to a CL final and a title race. Jose has imo the best squad we’ve had in years and he’s been backed, but now a league cup win would mean he’s done his job and has done more for us than Poch? For me that’s taking a step back, tell me this, If Poch had won the League Cup final in 2015 but never taken us to CL final or even top 4, would his legacy for us been better? If Poch wins trophies except the CL at PSG has he done a better job than he did for us? If we won the League cup this season but finished outside top 4 would you take it? Arsenal have won the FA Cup a couple of times these last few years and also got in to the top 4 but their fans was still unhappy, now with Arteta they’ve won the Cup but he’s clearly not done a good job. I’m not saying I wouldn’t be happy if we won the League cup, of course I would but that doesn’t take the club to the next level. We even won it in 2008 but it did nothing for us as a club. I understand that we’re tired of not winning anything and tired of others laughing at us for not winning anything but winning a league cup won’t drastically make us a better team and bigger club

For me Poch perfectly fitted in in our club motto ‘To Dare Is To Do’ he pushed the club as far as he could, even though we didn’t have the squad for it he still tried to win the biggest trophies and also came close. Yes he didn’t win anything but he showed ambition and he dared to believe. With Jose it’s like winning the League cup would be enough when it shouldn’t. Even the Europa League (which I would love for us to win) we shouldn’t even be in the competition in the first place. Jose always talks about winning mentality and we all know what he’s won in the past but for me he’s not acting like a winner. The way he sets us up is like we’re the underdog in every game. I don’t feel like opponents fear us like they should do. We’re acting like every team we play is Bayern Munich and show them so much respect. Players like Son & Kane who are 2 of the best attacking players in the world, doesn’t that make them feel worse as a player instead of trusting their abilities and play to their strengths, and make the opponent fear us instead we play them like regular players, hearing Jose always talks about the other team and what great players they have when them 2 is one of the best in the world?

For me showing ambition means trying to be the best you can possibly be, go toe for toe against the best even if you fail. That to me is winning mentality, even if you’re not as good as the opponent, play you’re heart out and try to beat them. This season in terms of quality has to be top 5 worst in a very long time. Liverpool has so many injuries, City isn’t as good as they was, United, Arsenal and Chelsea have managers who isn’t good enough, everyone is dropping points. This is the best chance at winning the league in a long time but we won’t take it. We have a very good keeper who has won the World Cup, Finally a DM again, Ndombele who is absolute class, 2 of the best attackers in the world, a manager who is one of the best of all time. So why aren’t we seriously challenging, why aren’t we approaching every game like we’re the one who’s trying to win the league? I’m not saying we should win it but you need to show that you will do every thing you can to try and win it. Conte won the league in his first season in a country he’s never been in before so there shouldn’t be any excuses to why we can’t be at least close to winning it

Even last season I remember how incredibly disappointed I was in Jose. We’re 3-0 down in total away to Leipzig at halftime without Son & Kane. Instead of trying your absolute best and believe we can turn it around he decided to park the bus and keep the numbers down. The season before that we were almost in the same situation, 3-0 down in total away to Ajax. Without Kane and couple of other players. Instead of keeping the numbers down we went for it and believed and it paid of. I don’t want to see my club ever not believe, and with someone like Jose I was very disappointed to see that. I just want to see Jose & the team really believe we can win the league, play to our strengths, make the opponent fear us. To be the best you need to win the biggest trophies not a “regular” cup. We built a big stadium to match the team we want to be

Btw I just want to make it very clear that of course I would be happy if we won any trophy but I’m just saying imo being ambitious is to go for the biggest trophies


And also one last thing I’m tired of seeing people like Windy get abused and called a fake fan on social media because he looks at the sport football differently from others. I think he said something in the lines of he would rather see us play peak Poch football than playing boring and winning a league cup. I’m not saying I agree with him but to call him a fake fan because he has a different opinion is ridiculous. And many agrees with him, I’ve seen a lot of people say that they’ve either stopped watching the game or will stop if we continue to play like this. People forget that this sport is meant to entertain us and if people isn’t getting entertained they have the right to say so. If I’m being honest I enjoy football much less than I used to, with social media everything has become toxic and football has become win at all cost instead of the beauty of it. People on social media moaning about everything and it’s like everyone needs to have the same opinions or else you’re a fake fan or stupid.

Last game against Wolves I complained about how boring the game is and my sister told me why do you even watch it then? Why are you wasting your time on something you find boring? And in reality it’s true even though there’s more to that, tbh I might just follow the scores instead of watching the game and torturing myself. But yeah what I wanted to say is that people have different opinions and look at things differently from others, that doesn’t mean they’re a less fan than others



Please comment what you think of what I said, your thoughts on this whole trophy thing and how you feel about football today



To Dare Is To Do. COYS

Thanks for the post. Always a bit daunting starting a thread like this as you will have people agreeing and disagreeing so fair play for writing it.

I could be very wrong but I thought Levy sacked Poch and got Jose was to take us to the next level. And for me that means winning the biggest trophies (PL & CL). With Poch we got to a CL final and a title race. Jose has imo the best squad we’ve had in years and he’s been backed, but now a league cup win would mean he’s done his job and has done more for us than Poch?

I disagree with the above statement as you are comparing the end of Poch's time to the beginning of Jose's. Poch inherited a talented squad of players. If he won a domestic cup in his first season we would have seen this as a success. To truly get to the top you need to compete in the CL and for the top honours. So in the long run competing at the top of the league was his aim.

Jose has inherited a talented squad of players. Like Poch if he won a domestic cup in his first season I would be very happy. But in the long run he will need to get the team performing to a higher level and that means challenging at the top of the table. So I disagree with your assertion that what is considered a success for Jose is different than for Poch.

I agree with you that domestic cups are nice but there is a bigger picture.

Poch's style of football was great at its best. I certainly understand fans not being all over Jose's. But ultimately Poch stagnated as outside of instilling a playing style he didn't achieve elsewhere, notably the transfer market.

I know many are feeling down right now but lets not forget that Jose has won major honours. He did so as the underdog for Porto. When he had a great team at Real Madrid they broken goalscoring records. So I am not without hope that in time we will see better results and performances.

We have to remember Jose took over a team that had been on really awful form for an entire calendar year. There was a lot to sort out and it was never going to be done within 2 transfer windows.