What exactly does a DoF have to do to get sacked?

[nidge]

I am not saying that Bent is an appalling player, simply that so far this year he looks like an average Premiership striker worth £7-8 million. When you consider that Everton paid £11 for Yakubu, who has scored 62 goals in 93 Premiership appearances, it puts Bent into perspective. Yes, he's English, but we weren't obliged to buy an English striker (or any striker at all, to be fair). But this isn't about Bent.

Where did you get your stats from? Because my figures are somewhat different to yours.

Bent has scored 35 goals in 81 games. So scores a goal every 2.3 games in the prem.

Yakubu has scored 54 goals in 139 games. So scores a goal every 2.5 games.

Not much of a difference but, it is in favour of Bent.

 

[Stoof]

No Mr Stoof , it is Mr Bent who is out of his depth. Are you honestly trying to say he has been impressive in his appearances this season ? 3 goals ? Fantastic. Indications are that he is a typical example of a player that looks good in a poor team with no big name players ( hence his 32 goals ) but cannot make the step up. Think Alan Brazil, Jason Dozzell, Sean Davis , Chris Armstrong, Oyvind Leonardsen, Steffen Iversen, Wayne Routledge, Andy Reid . Big fish in small ponds. Small fry in the big world.

Those are League goals only. I don't have stats for all the cups as well. He's scored two in Europe hasn't he? Has he not scored more than Berbatov?

Is our strikeforce even the problem? No. And trying to somehow blame Bent for our position is ludicrous. It's not his fault we signed him for that fee, he didn't hold out for the money - Charlton did. We've scored amongst the most in the Premiership - the problem is at the other end. There is no problem at that end.

To say that Bent is more proven than Torres is absurd. The Premier League is not the only League in the world. It is just as hard if not harder to shine in La Liga , yet the Kanoute you scorn ( who was by far our best player in his first season with us ) has excelled in a Sevilla team now looking good in the CL. Regrets he left us ? Sure, I bet he does . Cl or a relegation dogfight ? Then there are people like you who think that he is a poor player.

In the PREMIER LEAGUE he is. It's not a difficult concept. Torres has played a handful of games, Bent has played in English leagues all his life and has Premiership goals on his stats history. Torres doesn't. The concept is simple.

Now I happen to think that at a sensible price (5-7m ) Bent was worth taking on board as 4th striker. I think it is comical how you and SS57 say it's ok, we can pay in instalments which somehow means it didn't really cost 15m ! Our outgoing transfers are also received in instalments ( Carrick, Mido etc ) but do you write that Carrick was only really sold for 3m or whatever because that was Manure's downpayment ? No of course not. Like it or not the cold hard truth is that we are in a relegation battle and that is in part down to wasting 15m on a striker who shall we kindly say has not set the Lane alight since his arrival .

Can you tell me your complicated analysis of how you reached your valuation?

See above re: blaming Bent for our position.

And yes, the point of instalments is important. Because if we sell him within that time, then no, the fee wouldn't be £16m. The structure is relevant - it doesn't detract from the overall price per se, but it's not as if we've dumped all our money at once.

Carrick's downpayment was at least £12 rising to £18. They are a bit different. And I expect we got a fair chunk for them winning the League.

Since we do not have infinite funds it is logical that his signing precluded a couple of others - an experienced central defender and a real ball winner in midfield which were much more necessary..

No it doesn't, and you can't conclude with the knowledge of a fan as opposed to one of the Magic Three, that we weren't trying for other signings in addition. There was never any indication that this was the case - and it's your own opinion, so don't try to present it as fact.

You wait til Berbatov fucks off - then what happens? If we hadn't have signed Bent when we did, someone else would have got him. The boy has scored PREMIER LEAGUE GOALS - Torres hasn't - he's scored Spanish League goals.

The leagues are completely different, as has been shown by imports regularly failing to live up to their billing.

You seem to think that I'm saying Torres isn't class? Of course not - but he's hardly a proven PL goalscorer, just because he hasn't played the games. Bent is - that's simple straight-forward fact.

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

I didn't want this thread to descend into a discussion about the merit of Darren Bent, because none of this is his fault. I happen to think he's a very average striker, but that's just my opinion.

If it's accepted that Comolli's remit is to identify potential signings, assess whether or not they are any good, decide whether they are mentally and physically appropriate to Spurs, and then negotiate with clubs to sign them, I think we have a better way of understanding whether or not he's been a success.

Comolli spent big on 4 signings over the summer. He opted for youth over experience, and spent £16.5 million on Darren Bent, £8 million on Younes Kaboul, £5-10 million on Gareth Bale and £5 million on Boateng. That comes to a total of about £34 million (that's a conservative estimate, as I've rated Bale as £5million). Now, given that DC has just spent £34 million, I think it's fair to ask whether he has spent the money wisely. We already had Keane, Defoe, Berbatov (and at that stage Mido) and were scoring goals whichever combination was in the team. Did we really need to spend £16.5 million on a striker? Man U have Rooney, Tevez and Saha. Chelsea have Drogba, Shevchenko and Kalou. Arsenal have Eduardo, Van Persie and Adebayor. It seems as though the top teams are quite content with 3 main strikers.

He also spent £8 million on Kaboul. He had a good reputation, but was young and relatively untested and games so far have indicated that he's not yet ready for the Premier League. I suspect that DC could have bought an experienced central defender for half the price.

At £5-10 million Bale was a good signing. I have no idea whether or not KPB is a good signing, but I would say that he's one for the future, rather than someone who is going to have significant impact on the team this season.

It seems to me that for £34 million quid DC could have bought a top class central midfielder (£10 million), a decent left-winger (£7 million), an experienced central defender (£5 million), a top goalkeeper (£8 million) and a young target-man striker (£4 million). What I cannot understand, given DC's remit, is that he seems to have completely ignored the needs of the team and gone out and randomly bought players (who may or may not be any good - that's another discussion) who have high resale value but don't add much to the team.

 

[devlin_adl]

And yes, the point of instalments is important. Because if we sell him within that time, then no, the fee wouldn't be £16m. The structure is relevant - it doesn't detract from the overall price per se, but it's not as if we've dumped all our money at once.

Carrick's downpayment was at least £12 rising to £18. They are a bit different. And I expect we got a fair chunk for them winning the League.

The club won't have to pay the performance related elements, but it will still have to pay the installments, which is the vast majority of the price (and the price was £16.5m, not £16m, as stated by the club in its stock exchange announcement on 29 June).

Incidentally, Torres cost £20m, not £25. He says so himself on the latest Times "The Game" podcast.

 

[devlin_adl]

He opted for youth over experience, and spent £16.5 million on Darren Bent, £8 million on Younes Kaboul, £5-10 million on Gareth Bale and £5 million on Boateng.

In the club's 2007 annual report, it states that Kaobul and Boateng cost a combined £14m, so there's an extra £1m to be added to your figures somewhere.

Incidentally, what happened to Boateng?

 

[Kurtzen]

manwhoisn'tasasleepasheclaims............agree with most of the above . Though, Man U have Rooney, Tevez and Saha. Chelsea have Drogba, Shevchenko and Kalou. Arsenal have Eduardo, Van Persie and Adebayor. It seems as though the top teams are quite content with 3 main strikers.

their threat from midfield far exceeds even the most optimistic assesment of ours?

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

Yes, exactly. We had a fairly rubbish central midfield and a good set of strikers, so I was puzzled to see DC spend £16.5 million on a striker we didn't really need and £5 million on a midfielder who isn't yet up to premiership standards. I can't see how DC can wriggle out of that one.

 

[nickspurs]

The club won't have to pay the performance related elements, but it will still have to pay the installments, which is the vast majority of the price (and the price was £16.5m, not £16m, as stated by the club in its stock exchange announcement on 29 June).

That's right. Can't believe people actually think installments means the full fee isn't realised if we sell them.

Installments is purely a cashflow thing. We 100%, absolutely have to pay the transfer fee agreed regardless of us selling him before the installments have been paid.

If there are no performance-related add-ons and we buy a player for £10M but have only paid the first £2M in installments when we then sell him on, HE STILL COST US £10M!!!! We just owe the last club for the balance. Now if we ship him on to another club there may be some transfer of the debt to the original club but I'm sure that's on a deal by deal basis.

"Rising to..." means we'd avoid that incremental cost if a player we buy doesn't meet those performance criteria before we ship them on, e.g. club winning title, caps, etc.

 

[Kurtzen]

Yes, exactly. We had a fairly rubbish central midfield and a good set of strikers, so I was puzzled to see DC spend £16.5 million on a striker we didn't really need and £5 million on a midfielder who isn't yet up to premiership standards. I can't see how DC can wriggle out of that one.

'Wriggle out'....he's a lawyer :wink:

Without diverting from the weight/balance of your assesment....i reckon that Bent's purchase was in part panic due to the possible departures of Berbatov/Defoe. By the time the dust settled they were left holding the grenade with the pin some distance away(September).

 

[SpurSince57]

I didn't want this thread to descend into a discussion about the merit of Darren Bent, because none of this is his fault. I happen to think he's a very average striker, but that's just my opinion.

If it's accepted that Comolli's remit is to identify potential signings, assess whether or not they are any good, decide whether they are mentally and physically appropriate to Spurs, and then negotiate with clubs to sign them, I think we have a better way of understanding whether or not he's been a success.

Comolli spent big on 4 signings over the summer. He opted for youth over experience, and spent £16.5 million on Darren Bent, £8 million on Younes Kaboul, £5-10 million on Gareth Bale and £5 million on Boateng. That comes to a total of about £34 million (that's a conservative estimate, as I've rated Bale as £5million). Now, given that DC has just spent £34 million, I think it's fair to ask whether he has spent the money wisely. We already had Keane, Defoe, Berbatov (and at that stage Mido) and were scoring goals whichever combination was in the team. Did we really need to spend £16.5 million on a striker? Man U have Rooney, Tevez and Saha. Chelsea have Drogba, Shevchenko and Kalou. Arsenal have Eduardo, Van Persie and Adebayor. It seems as though the top teams are quite content with 3 main strikers.

He also spent £8 million on Kaboul. He had a good reputation, but was young and relatively untested and games so far have indicated that he's not yet ready for the Premier League. I suspect that DC could have bought an experienced central defender for half the price.

At £5-10 million Bale was a good signing. I have no idea whether or not KPB is a good signing, but I would say that he's one for the future, rather than someone who is going to have significant impact on the team this season.

It seems to me that for £34 million quid DC could have bought a top class central midfielder (£10 million), a decent left-winger (£7 million), an experienced central defender (£5 million), a top goalkeeper (£8 million) and a young target-man striker (£4 million). What I cannot understand, given DC's remit, is that he seems to have completely ignored the needs of the team and gone out and randomly bought players (who may or may not be any good - that's another discussion) who have high resale value but don't add much to the team.

Because that, quite simply, appears to be Levy's policy. Jol said that we considered both Distin and Chivu, but decided that Kaboul was a better long-term prospect. I don't think we'd have had a chance of getting Chivu, but Distin was available on a free; unfortunately, he's also 30 and wanted a pretty high wage—probably something near our top whack. It seems that wage demands also put paid to Petrov. In four years neither will have any sell-on value, and that seems to be the chief factor. Let's say both would be on £40k a week. With Petrov's fee, that would be about £20m we wouldn't get back. As for the striker situation, Mido was obviously on his way out, and it's been suggested that we thought we'd succeeded in offloading Defoe. Add to that all the talk about Berbatov… And what, exactly, does £6m get you where strikers are concerned?

The club won't have to pay the performance related elements, but it will still have to pay the installments, which is the vast majority of the price (and the price was £16.5m, not £16m, as stated by the club in its stock exchange announcement on 29 June).

Incidentally, Torres cost £20m, not £25. He says so himself on the latest Times "The Game" podcast.

£20m plus Luis Garcia.

 

[Stoof]

That's right. Can't believe people actually think installments means the full fee isn't realised if we sell them.

Installments is purely a cashflow thing. We 100%, absolutely have to pay the transfer fee agreed regardless of us selling him before the installments have been paid.

... there may be some transfer of the debt to the original club but I'm sure that's on a deal by deal basis.

"Rising to..." means we'd avoid that incremental cost if a player we buy doesn't meet those performance criteria before we ship them on, e.g. club winning title, caps, etc.

I understand all this - but it was my understanding that the bold bit was true as well. Obviously not all deals, though, as you say.

And I was unaware of the divide between performance based and pure instalment in this particular transfer - I didn't realise it was 90% instalment. So apologies there.

As for Comolli - didn't Levy make it clear that he was the next one out? So if Ramos doesn't do the job he's been brought in to do, Levy has figured out which variable it is that isn't giving us success. It just might be a shame that Jol had to be sacrificed for him to figure that out - if that turns out to be the case.

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

What exactly does £6 million get you for a striker? Loads. I'm not talking about players who would start instead of Berbatov or Keane, I'm talking about players who are happy to join the club as a support striker. As I mentioned previously, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are all happy to have 3 main strikers and have players like Bendtner or Eagles coming through. I don't actually think we needed another striker at all, but if you're asking what you can get for £6 million... Well, there Olivier Kapo (£3m, 5 goals in 12 appearances for Birmingham), Roque Santa Cruz (£3.5m, 4 Premiership goals so far this season).

 

[yanno]

As for Comolli - didn't Levy make it clear that he was the next one out? So if Ramos doesn't do the job he's been brought in to do, Levy has figured out which variable it is that isn't giving us success. It just might be a shame that Jol had to be sacrificed for him to figure that out - if that turns out to be the case.

Yes he did. From the Times:

Ramos was Comolli’s choice. “He has recommended Juande Ramos, clearly he will have [to take] responsibility if it doesn’t work, but I have every confidence it will,” Levy said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/tottenham/article2951051.ece

Once Jol's book is published, we may discover that the great irony is that Jol got the bullet for having to rely on Comolli's transfer recommendations, whilst if Ramos fails as a coach (despite hopefully having more say over transfers than Jol), it will be dear Damian who gets the boot. Of course this is all speculation....

 

[Stoof]

What exactly does £6 million get you for a striker? Loads. I'm not talking about players who would start instead of Berbatov or Keane, I'm talking about players who are happy to join the club as a support striker. As I mentioned previously, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are all happy to have 3 main strikers and have players like Bendtner or Eagles coming through. I don't actually think we needed another striker at all, but if you're asking what you can get for £6 million... Well, there Olivier Kapo (£3m, 5 goals in 12 appearances for Birmingham), Roque Santa Cruz (£3.5m, 4 Premiership goals so far this season).

The school of thought behind Bent is that Berbatov won't be here after the Summer - and it was a case of buying now before we're left with Defoe and Keane, without a strike partner.

He fits all Levy criteria: young, English, overpriced. Yes?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yes he did. From the Times:

Ramos was Comolli’s choice. “He has recommended Juande Ramos, clearly he will have [to take] responsibility if it doesn’t work, but I have every confidence it will,” Levy said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/tottenham/article2951051.ece

Once Jol's book is published, we may discover that the great irony is that Jol got the bullet for having to rely on Comolli's transfer recommendations, whilst if Ramos fails as a coach (despite hopefully having more say over transfers than Jol), it will be dear Damian who gets the boot. Of course this is all speculation....

If Jol's book claims he was soley dependant on Comoli's signings then he's a liar. Either in his book or when interviewed previously claiming he had the final say on every transfer. Personally I always doubted that Jol has this "final vito" and was glad but he certainly said it and it was filmed at the charity ding dong a little while back.

 

[nickspurs]

If Jol's book claims he was soley dependant on Comoli's signings then he's a liar. Either in his book or when interviewed previously claiming he had the final say on every transfer. Personally I always doubted that Jol has this "final vito" and was glad but he certainly said it and it was filmed at the charity ding dong a little while back.

I think he had to trot out that party line as otherwise everyone would laugh at the club (as this country doesn't really believe in the DoF approach given the success of SAF and AW). Also, it would be pretty humiliating for him to say that he doesn't have the final say.

I personally think he was overruled on many things which is a great shame. I think (hope) the board have figured out that this disconnect between coach needs and DoF interpretation of needs was bad. I also suspect that Ramos will have gained assurances that he will have more of a say than BMJ but time will tell...

 

[yanno]

If Jol's book claims he was soley dependant on Comoli's signings then he's a liar. Either in his book or when interviewed previously claiming he had the final say on every transfer. Personally I always doubted that Jol has this "final vito" and was glad but he certainly said it and it was filmed at the charity ding dong a little while back.

Oh yeah, baby! BMJ's imminent musings on Kafka, Clacton-on-Sea and our beloved Spurs are going to give us endless topics for conversation, and some huge SC arguments... :up:

 

[devlin_adl]

£20m plus Luis Garcia.

Garcia's transfer to Athletico was a seperate transaction, which was concluded prior to Torres moving across. He was not a part-exchange.

 

[Stoof]

Garcia's transfer to Athletico was a seperate transaction, which was concluded prior to Torres moving across. He was not a part-exchange.

Surely that's splitting hairs?

They obviously negotiated the deals in mind of both happening - surely?

The net result was Garcia + money for Torres, whatever structure you put on it.

 

[justfookinhitit]

It seems to me that for £34 million quid DC could have bought a top class central midfielder (£10 million), a decent left-winger (£7 million), an experienced central defender (£5 million), a top goalkeeper (£8 million) and a young target-man striker (£4 million). What I cannot understand, given DC's remit, is that he seems to have completely ignored the needs of the team and gone out and randomly bought players (who may or may not be any good - that's another discussion) who have high resale value but don't add much to the team.

Agree with most of what you say except that I would have still bought Bale as a part of the £34m outlay. He is absolutely top drawer. But after him that would have still left us with £24m or so, and that buys us a bloody good CB and CM.