What has gone wrong?

[Sevens]

The footballing fashionista would no doubt disagree but the game isn't about "systems". It's about people. It's about utilising a person's existing strengths rather than trying to get them to do something they aren't good at. It's about having a team that is balanced and cohesive because the players are playing their natural game in their natural positions.

The difference, at club level, between successful managers and unsuccessful managers isn't a system or formation. It's usually that the successful manager has better players and plays to those players strengths. It's because the better manager identifies gaps in the team and plugs them by purchasing new players that fit better (not necessary better players either).

What's gone wrong is that recent managers are more obsessed with their systems than actually playing to the players strengths. AVB's biggest downfall was a total and utter lack of flexibility (both on and off the pitch it would seem). I am becoming increasingly worried that Poch falls into the same category.

 

[Hotspur33]

The footballing fashionista would no doubt disagree but the game isn't about "systems". It's about people. It's about utilising a person's existing strengths rather than trying to get them to do something they aren't good at. It's about having a team that is balanced and cohesive because the players are playing their natural game in their natural positions.

The difference, at club level, between successful managers and unsuccessful managers isn't a system or formation. It's usually that the successful manager has better players and plays to those players strengths. It's because the better manager identifies gaps in the team and plugs them by purchasing new players that fit better (not necessary better players either).

What's gone wrong is that recent managers are more obsessed with their systems than actually playing to the players strengths. AVB's biggest downfall was a total and utter lack of flexibility (both on and off the pitch it would seem). I am becoming increasingly worried that Poch falls into the same category.

I agree completely. If you cast your mind back to when AVB first took charge, he started out trying to play his way, then when is wasn't working he went to a 442 and got a few results. Then for no apparent reason he then went back to his 4-2-3-1 and stuck with it regardless.
Now his points talley tells us he wasn't completely terrible, but he could still be here now if he could learn to be a bit more flexible.

 

[raf18]

I'm not sure but this rot needs to stop and stop now. I cannot take any more embarrassment with these disgraceful results. We, as fans deserve to know what the hell is going on at our club and deserve performances to improve

We, as fans dont deserve anything if we can't even support our own team.

 

[shelfmonkey]

I think Levy has created a culture of transience, players (or their agents) recognise that Levy wants to buy young emerging talent, this marks us as a 'stepping stone club'. Also you have the ridiculous turnover of managers/coaches, none has an influx of players that are of their choosing, allowing the development of their own style and philosophy which inevitably ends with what we are seeing happen again. Add to this Levy's seemingly maniacal desire for CL qualification, which, IMO, is purely a financial and global profile quest and you end up with the annual disasters we're witnessing. I believe that unless the manager is allowed control of transfers AND given the time to implement his ideas and create a successful formula then Levy's system is always doomed to fail!!

 

[CheeseGromit]

Van Gaal has a history of success and over time whilst he might have a philosophy and a certain preferred style he's always been prepared to change things to accomodate strengths or mitigate weaknesses or lack of players to do fill certain roles. Good managers are not chained to dogma, Fergie certainly wasn't. Mourinho certainly isn't and Ancelotti will always look for what works.Even Pep has changed things to accommodate a different squad of players at Bayern. Good managers are pragmatic, they may have preferences but all accept that players dictate the tactics rather than the other way, if you don't have the players to make your preferred way work you adapt and adjust until you do

You may not turn big clubs round in 5 minutes and that may have been fair enough had we been languishing in mid table, but we have been among the top four and five clubs for most of the past 9 years, there was no need to turn things around just to improve. We have turned round but unfortunately not in the direction we want to go. Poch's biggest problem is that he is an inexperienced manager with a couple of seasons where he's taken a lower table team to a middle table team and one of those he took back down lower. Steve Clarke was getting lots of kudos the season before last with WBA, they finished 8th too, but you either have to be that rare really good inexperienced manager or an experienced manager that has gained enough knowledge to know what to look for in players, in building a balanced team, in motivating players, in finding the right tactics, in making the right decisions. Poch is out of his depth. no point blaming the players that managed 6th last season in what was a disappointing season, we were looking for a manager to get more not less. We made a mistake, picked a guy who flattered to deceive and we are struggling

Van Gaal just said it will take 3 years to turn Manure around. I am not so sure as you that Maureen and Fergie is/were as flexible as you are making out. Maureen certainly copped stick at RM for his style of play. He also bought players tosuit how he plays and Fergie dumped players who didn't do what he wanted

Judging Poch after 11 games against them or even last year is more than a little premature. And your illustrations are from some of the very best in the game.

Sure Clarke example is true but that was second season with the same club

When judging Spurs over 9 years it less than open not to highlight that there were a high number of players in their prime sold for a lot of money without direct replacements

Last season was not a success and some of the worst results for many a long year. I am not saying Poch is right or the club but he deserves more time to prove his capability or not Last year was 38 games and so far we have played 11 league games

Is Wenger a bad manager because he does not compromise his style ?

 

[CheeseGromit]

i wonder if a similar thread was doing the rounds on the Newcash web site a few weeks ago.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

i wonder if a similar thread was doing the rounds on the Newcash web site a few weeks ago.

It's a sticky. Pinned right at the top of the forum and has been since Ashley took over

 

[arunspurs]

This Darren Lewis article, hits the nail on the head.

Every single thing mentioned here is reflective of my view (& almost all fans)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mauricio-pochettino-isnt-problem-tottenham-4605502

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

I've always been fairly positive about levy when it comes to finances. But it is difficult to look past him to identify where the club is going wrong. The article above, even if it was the mirror, is reasonable in many respects.

Sometimes one should look at ones organisation, wonder why it has such a negative culture, rip it up and restructure it. Levy persists in repeating his ideal. If he can admit defeat in the whole DOF bullshit and get a decent scouting network up and running, we may start getting somewhere. Levy, why don't you stick to the finances and let someone with some people skills take over the rest of it!

There is no quick fix IMO. We are once again, on a road to recovery like a relapsing crack head.

 

[Barry Mead]

Van Gaal just said it will take 3 years to turn Manure around. I am not so sure as you that Maureen and Fergie is/were as flexible as you are making out. Maureen certainly copped stick at RM for his style of play. He also bought players tosuit how he plays and Fergie dumped players who didn't do what he wanted

Judging Poch after 11 games against them or even last year is more than a little premature. And your illustrations are from some of the very best in the game.

Sure Clarke example is true but that was second season with the same club

When judging Spurs over 9 years it less than open not to highlight that there were a high number of players in their prime sold for a lot of money without direct replacements

Last season was not a success and some of the worst results for many a long year. I am not saying Poch is right or the club but he deserves more time to prove his capability or not Last year was 38 games and so far we have played 11 league games

Is Wenger a bad manager because he does not compromise his style ?

Why would you assume I'm judging Poch on 11 games? apart from the fact that he's been in charge 19 games for us, something it seems those that make this argument about judging him prematurely seem to have trouble in grasping, but he was at Soton and at Espanyol and he was hardly great at either. People say that he did well to get Soton to 8th but we often see lower teams manage a highish place as a one off, it doesn't always mean they can sustain it. Indeed he had an early run at Espanyol that lifted them only for them to follow back downward in the next couple of seasons and end up rock bottom of La Liga when he was sacked.

As for Steve Clarke the previous season Hodgson was in charge, by comparison Poch had the previous half season to settle in as he joined in the January of the previous season so actually Poch had had more time

In judging Spurs over the last nine years there have been a lot of prime players sold and a lot of prime players bought. We might not have Bale now or Modric yet they weren't the same major players that left the club than say when Harry achieved CL, other players played more games it's using players or not. We have good players now, I'd say we have a better squad than the one Jol got us within a dodgy lasagna of 4th place 9 years back, but we are not getting the same kind of performances. It's not just about players, it's selection, shape and style, motivation and that where we are struggling

Last season was not a good season for us we finished sixth, Poch at Soton finished 8th so what does that tell you? You say he deserves more time but based on what? The tactics he has shown? the selections? the transfer dealings? the captaincy
choices? if there was anything to support giving him more time then no one would be arguing, but there is nothing to suggest he is anything but totally out of his depth, so how will more time help. He's an inexperienced manager with no track record of any tangible success, you can't blame him for wanting to try at a bigger club, but he's clearly too inexperienced at this stage

As for Wenger whilst he has an entertaining philosophy he has changed style and emphasis to suit the players he has had and can get. You don't see a Thierry Henry or a Patrick Viera in the current squad, he changes his play to accomodate as best he can he can. He doesn't always get it right but he doesn't try to force players to play roles not suited

 

[Barry Mead]

This Darren Lewis article, hits the nail on the head.

Every single thing mentioned here is reflective of my view (& almost all fans)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mauricio-pochettino-isnt-problem-tottenham-4605502

No doubt Levy has to take a lot of the blame-but that includes hiring Poch. It seems the article is trying to excuse bigging up Pochettino's arrival earlier. It's nonsense to suggest that Poch had little choice but make Kaboul captain, He had a captain with far better credentials, far greater leadership and far greater character and he forced him out the door. Likewise he was happy to let Sandro go another strong character on the pitch and in the dressing room. Too many poor decisions combined with too many poor performances. Yes Levy has a lot to answer for including appointing Pochettino

 

[SydneySpur]

We are missing Scott Parker and characters of his ilk. Plain and simple. We are a soft touch again and teams know it.

 

[whl_yid1982]

Seems Levy is in for a bit of stick in the media this morning

Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...hettino-is-the-one-who-could-pay-9852411.html

Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...plans-to-meet-squad-to-discuss-poor-form.html

And as has already been posted the Darren Lewis Mirror article.

Seems they have cottoned on to the growing displeasure for Levy amongst us Spurs fans.

 

[mill]

No doubt Levy has to take a lot of the blame-but that includes hiring Poch. It seems the article is trying to excuse bigging up Pochettino's arrival earlier. It's nonsense to suggest that Poch had little choice but make Kaboul captain, He had a captain with far better credentials, far greater leadership and far greater character and he forced him out the door. Likewise he was happy to let Sandro go another strong character on the pitch and in the dressing room. Too many poor decisions combined with too many poor performances. Yes Levy has a lot to answer for including appointing Pochettino

was it him that sold them players though? Itk suggested there was more going on with sandro than we know, the lengths of their contracts was probably decisive as anything else

 

[CheeseGromit]

Why would you assume I'm judging Poch on 11 games? apart from the fact that he's been in charge 19 games for us, something it seems those that make this argument about judging him prematurely seem to have trouble in grasping, but he was at Soton and at Espanyol and he was hardly great at either. People say that he did well to get Soton to 8th but we often see lower teams manage a highish place as a one off, it doesn't always mean they can sustain it. Indeed he had an early run at Espanyol that lifted them only for them to follow back downward in the next couple of seasons and end up rock bottom of La Liga when he was sacked.

As for Steve Clarke the previous season Hodgson was in charge, by comparison Poch had the previous half season to settle in as he joined in the January of the previous season so actually Poch had had more time

In judging Spurs over the last nine years there have been a lot of prime players sold and a lot of prime players bought. We might not have Bale now or Modric yet they weren't the same major players that left the club than say when Harry achieved CL, other players played more games it's using players or not. We have good players now, I'd say we have a better squad than the one Jol got us within a dodgy lasagna of 4th place 9 years back, but we are not getting the same kind of performances. It's not just about players, it's selection, shape and style, motivation and that where we are struggling

Last season was not a good season for us we finished sixth, Poch at Soton finished 8th so what does that tell you? You say he deserves more time but based on what? The tactics he has shown? the selections? the transfer dealings? the captaincy
choices? if there was anything to support giving him more time then no one would be arguing, but there is nothing to suggest he is anything but totally out of his depth, so how will more time help. He's an inexperienced manager with no track record of any tangible success, you can't blame him for wanting to try at a bigger club, but he's clearly too inexperienced at this stage

As for Wenger whilst he has an entertaining philosophy he has changed style and emphasis to suit the players he has had and can get. You don't see a Thierry Henry or a Patrick Viera in the current squad, he changes his play to accomodate as best he can he can. He doesn't always get it right but he doesn't try to force players to play roles not suited

So the whole discussion is based on 8 forgotten games that were played in cup competitions both here and in Europe with a largely different side.

There are a lot of differences between Clarke and Poch but then that is not the point and not a comparison of note.

I do question your view about the 9 previous years and that quality of squad of jow vs then. Redknapp certainly inherited a more experienced squad and had all but 8 games without much expectation to bed in. For me and |I await the derision from the Redknapps fans is that he did not make enough of the quality of the squad he had. Current players like Eriksen and Lamela have little real experience and Paulinho and Chadli were new to the prem. and previous managers have struggled with those problems But I do agree absolutely it is about the bigger picture and your point is that he has had long enough. Experience comes with doing and Poch will have learned things from previous appointments and not being granted it for some magical reason.

To make such a major statement that he is too inexperienced and out of his depth after a limited number of games suggest that he was on a loser to begin with. I am not somebody who had Poch as my first choice but I can see harm done in the negativity of constantly keep changing managers because they are not an instant hit. Rogers is getting canned at Liverpool at present. Does selling Saurez make him a bad manager or having him in his side a great manager. Does Pardews run of wins suddenly make him a good manager Fortunes at Newcastle this season show it is to easy to make decision too quickly.

The turmoil of managers and star players is significant in the current situation. Patience is thin on the ground and that puts Poch and the players in a difficult position as little latitude is given.

Your points about Wegner using Henry and viera are cherry picking an point. He Wegner has not changed his stye that much in his time but that is not the point; it is about Spurs and what can be done and writing off Poch already is not the best way forward. He needs longer, he needs support but he has got to get it right. How long is he given depends on how much progress over how long .

Dont think I am a happy bunny but I feel some patience and opportunity to prove whether he can do it or not is the order of the day

 

[longtimespur]

I've always been fairly positive about levy when it comes to finances. But it is difficult to look past him to identify where the club is going wrong. The article above, even if it was the mirror, is reasonable in many respects.

Sometimes one should look at ones organisation, wonder why it has such a negative culture, rip it up and restructure it. Levy persists in repeating his ideal. If he can admit defeat in the whole DOF bullshit and get a decent scouting network up and running, we may start getting somewhere. Levy, why don't you stick to the finances and let someone with some people skills take over the rest of it!

There is no quick fix IMO. We are once again, on a road to recovery like a relapsing crack head.

I thought I read recently that the club are redressing their scouting policy, so maybe they are looking at it.
In my mind it won't matter one iota who they scout if a manager isn't given time to utilise them.

 

[Barry Mead]

was it him that sold them players though? Itk suggested there was more going on with sandro than we know, the lengths of their contracts was probably decisive as anything else

We'll always have this did he want to buy this player or sell that player. Daws never wanted to go and was on a pretty new contract after AVB admitted making a mistake in trying to sell him. Levy was happy having Dawson around for years but then Poch arrives and he's out the door, itk suggested Poch didn't think he could play the high line but then Poch apparently wanted Fazio and that kind of contradicts suggestions that he felt Daws couldn't. I mean how could anyone think Fazio could play a high line well
Then we have to look at what attempts were made to replace the character and leadership lost by their departures. We can of course blame Levy but what self respecting manager worth his salt would join a club where he has no say on transfer dealings unless he felt the squad was so good anyway.
Now I come to think of it Poch did say he thought he had inherited a great squad and was very happy with it

 

[The Scarecrow]

We are missing Scott Parker and characters of his ilk. Plain and simple. We are a soft touch again and teams know it.

Yup. Time to bring in some experienced 30+ players in January. Too bad Mark van Bommel is retired, as he's a Spurs fan.

 

[FinnYid]

I know there are a heap of threads here betting that Poch wont be here by Christmas etc and venting spleens and so on.

I'd prefer to look at things a little more constructively. The issue is:

1. Poch is not a bad manager - look at Southampton. Its not all Koeman you know!
2. He has a very good supporting group of coaches.
3. This is not a poor squad by any means - most of these players have been successful elsewhere and some of them have real potential.
3. We are not a club lacking the infrastructure to support a team in the PL.

What has gone wrong? Or better still....how could it possibly go so badly wrong?

Are the players still recovering from being mentally scarred after being thrashed last season? Were 3 managers in 18 months too much to take? Well four in three 1/2 years if you count Harry! Are these simply the wrong playrs for Poch's style? Are the players simply giving up on the field because of lack of leadership? Or is there something really not quite right with THFC and its simply rotten to the core?

It's not about having good manager with good coaches alongside with good bunch of players. It's just not enough. It's about having good goach and good material that are compatible. If they aren't, coach won't be there long enough to make material compatible to his needs and he will probably lose the dressing room and job before wholesale changes can be made. Coach must be compatible with existing material AND club culture. Sure latter changes over time and should change over time, but there has to be ability to work in current environment to be able to make changes. By now and given our history, people should understand that success of managers isn't that easily transferable from one environment (ie. Ancelotti has won here and there, he will be huge for Spurs - it just doesn't work that way) to another.

 

[brasil_spur]

Explain Lamela then.

We had a load of money burning a hole in our pocket and desperately needed a big signing to replace Bale, otherwise us fans would have truly rioted. Lamela and Soldado both looked good enough on paper to justify their fees.

Lack of patience and understanding from the fans + AVB's squad is the issue.

Not sure what AVB's squad has to do with it. AVB clearly had very little, if any, impact on who we signed, otherwise we'd have Moutinho and Hulk in our squad right now.