Who would you replace Avb with if you had the chance?

[Monkey boy]

Ancelloti at the end of the season, when he gets the inevitable chop from Madrid.

 

[talkshowhost86]

keep Ramos? Are you crazy.

Sacking him was 100% the only thing to do. I dont give a toss if he won the carling cup. We were going down in flames. That wasnt progress.

I genuinely dont think we have had much choice with our recent managers and their sackings, they werent just going through tricky patches they were absolutely all over the place.

success will be when we find a manager who can actually mould one of our squads into at the least the sum of its parts. Its a feat that we can get it wrong so consistently.

I suppose the question is though whether 12 league games is enough time for us to expect AVB to have moulded the squad.

I think last year we had the 5th best squad in the league and he got us to 5th so that can't be considered a failure.

This year he's got practically an entire new team as a result of huge spending and having his star player sold, so I think you have to wipe the slate clean and judge him as if he started in the Summer.

He's certainly not, and neither should he be, untouchable. But I think with the circumstances in the Summer he has to be given at least a season with what is, effectively, an entirely new squad.

 

[dudu]

keep Ramos? Are you crazy.

Sacking him was 100% the only thing to do. I dont give a toss if he won the carling cup. We were going down in flames. That wasnt progress.

I genuinely dont think we have had much choice with our recent managers and their sackings, they werent just going through tricky patches they were absolutely all over the place.

success will be when we find a manager who can actually mould one of our squads into at the least the sum of its parts. Its a feat that we can get it wrong so consistently.

I agree with you dude, i never wanted Ramos there in the first place as did very few of the players but its an interesting debate.

We do get it wrong all the time as do most teams with their managers. With hindsight we can look back and say so. I just dont know what the least sum of our squads parts is right now. Its certainly better than what we are currently having to endure.

 

[dudu]

I suppose the question is though whether 12 league games is enough time for us to expect AVB to have moulded the squad.

I think last year we had the 5th best squad in the league and he got us to 5th so that can't be considered a failure.

This year he's got practically an entire new team as a result of huge spending and having his star player sold, so I think you have to wipe the slate clean and judge him as if he started in the Summer.

He's certainly not, and neither should he be, untouchable. But I think with the circumstances in the Summer he has to be given at least a season with what is, effectively, an entirely new squad.

Agreed. AVB has bought himself a bit of time by at least not capitulating from the offset. We have by no means even reached 3rd gear yet but we do have a mini buffer of points which are keeping us in contact with most of the top pack of clubs.

The test for now at least will be if AVB is capable of bringing this teams spirits back up something which will happen if he can get the goals to start flowing.

The problem is that Time is a son of a bitch and he is running out of it.

 

[CowInAComa]

I suppose the question is though whether 12 league games is enough time for us to expect AVB to have moulded the squad.

I think last year we had the 5th best squad in the league and he got us to 5th so that can't be considered a failure.

This year he's got practically an entire new team as a result of huge spending and having his star player sold, so I think you have to wipe the slate clean and judge him as if he started in the Summer.

He's certainly not, and neither should he be, untouchable. But I think with the circumstances in the Summer he has to be given at least a season with what is, effectively, an entirely new squad.

There is no such thing as a clean slate. Everything that he has done before sets precedent for what he is judged on in the present.

Take an extreme example of say us somehow getting Klopp or Ferguson or Guardiola in the summer, would people be questioning them after exactly the same start to the season.. no. Because they have precedent. We all know what they can do, what sort of football they can play and what they can achieve given time. You know the end result is there.

We simply dont know with AvB. We have no evidence, certainly in english football. we have seen him fail miserably at Chelsea, struggle to forge a brand of attacking football at Spurs, which is wholly not a problem specific to this season and to these circumstances (new signings) - they are longstanding problems.

And if anything what we are seeing is not signs of progress but of regression, 1 goal in 4 games isnt a stat you can hide from.

If im being honest I dont know where this talk of give it time, once his system kicks in etc is coming from. Where have you seen him turn a club around? Where has he suffered a bad patch and come through it with flying colours, where has he built a squad from scratch implementing his own system? He hasnt done it, he hasnt earnt his stripes or taken his hits.

Its all very much a case of wishful thinking backed up with very weak evidence to me. This is a guy with a very short CV and as many failures on it as successes and yet who apparently is unquestionable.

He might well have it in him, but he needs to start to show some signs of life soon. Utd would be a good start.

 

[talkshowhost86]

There is no such thing as a clean slate. Everything that he has done before sets precedent for what he is judged on in the present.

Take an extreme example of say us somehow getting Klopp or Ferguson or Guardiola in the summer, would people be questioning them after exactly the same start to the season.. no. Because they have precedent. We all know what they can do, what sort of football they can play and what they can achieve given time. You know the end result is there.

We simply dont know with AvB. We have no evidence, certainly in english football. we have seen him fail miserably at Chelsea, struggle to forge a brand of attacking football at Spurs, which is wholly not a problem specific to this season and to these circumstances (new signings) - they are longstanding problems.

And if anything what we are seeing is not signs of progress but of regression, 1 goal in 4 games isnt a stat you can hide from.

If im being honest I dont know where this talk of give it time, once his system kicks in etc is coming from. Where have you seen him turn a club around? Where has he suffered a bad patch and come through it with flying colours, where has he built a squad from scratch implementing his own system? He hasnt done it, he hasnt earnt his stripes or taken his hits.

Its all very much a case of wishful thinking backed up with very weak evidence to me. This is a guy with a very short CV and as many failures on it as successes and yet who apparently is unquestionable.

He might well have it in him, but he needs to start to show some signs of life soon. Utd would be a good start.

If you are going with that philosophy though, who the hell are you going to want to replace him?

Someone with previous success in English football is very hard to find and if that's what you want I'd like to see your list of candidates.

I think the problem you'll have is that if you are looking at managers of the ilk of Klopp, Ferguson and Guardiola then you're going to be sorely disappointed whoever our manager is, because we'll never have anyone at that level. We have to have people with less of a track record and as such we have to give them time.

You've also completely ignored all the points about what happened to the squad in the Summer. After that sort of overhaul I don't think any manager would find it easy, and because of that overhaul you can't even talk about progress because AVB has basically had to start again.

Nobody thinks that our current form is good enough and my personal feeling is that if we don't get top 4 this year then AVB should be sacked.

But what do you honestly think would change by appointing someone else now?

 

[CowInAComa]

If you are going with that philosophy though, who the hell are you going to want to replace him?

Someone with previous success in English football is very hard to find and if that's what you want I'd like to see your list of candidates.

I think the problem you'll have is that if you are looking at managers of the ilk of Klopp, Ferguson and Guardiola then you're going to be sorely disappointed whoever our manager is, because we'll never have anyone at that level. We have to have people with less of a track record and as such we have to give them time.

You've also completely ignored all the points about what happened to the squad in the Summer. After that sort of overhaul I don't think any manager would find it easy, and because of that overhaul you can't even talk about progress because AVB has basically had to start again.

Nobody thinks that our current form is good enough and my personal feeling is that if we don't get top 4 this year then AVB should be sacked.

But what do you honestly think would change by appointing someone else now?

no no no.

I used Klopp et al as extreme examples of managers who you would absolutely warrant patience due to their undoubted history and quality. And what Im saying is AvB has no such weight of evidence neither historically nor from what we are seeing currently so I dont understand the call for patience under the assumption he is working towards something.

Hence its largely a leap of faith that he will turn it around or get it right, rather then being formed by informed opinion or prior successes .. is that not a fair point? People saying he will turn it around given time, just like ferguson did are missing the point.

I honestly dont know who, which is why im not actually jumping up and down and shouting AvB out. But I think the tipping point is coming whereby we will need to accept that perhaps he is a lame duck and think about who can take us forward.

Im sort of sticking to my ascertation that the penny was beginning to drop before the City game, Im even willing to suspend reality and accept it was a fluke of a result and too soon to expect the penny to have any impact,. But for me serious signs of addressing our issues need to be displayed over the next handful of games.

 

[Mullers]

None of our previous managers have achieved anything of note since leaving us. So I reckon we can have a decent stab at guessing how much we would have achieved with them had they remained in charge. I wasnt sad to see Ramos, Jol, Santini, Gross, Graham go when they did, and couldnt think of anything worse than 5-10 years of one them in charge of the club.

Redknapp shot himself in the foot to a degree, with england and the like.

But when does 18 months with no progress and arguably a serious argument for regression stop becoming a 'bad patch' and actually just a realistic representation of the abilities of the manager?

Its entirely to do with picking the right manager.

Jol took us to are highest league position since 1990 and gave us European football via qualification since the ban was lifted on English clubs. So he certainly was a decent manager who may have achieved a lot more, if he had stayed and been backed with the kind of cash going about now.

 

[nav007_2000]

Why would Klopp leave Dortmand, a top top team to come and manage Tottenham?

 

[worcestersauce]

Treating this as a discussion on various managers, Steve Clark's contract is up at the end of the season

 

[talkshowhost86]

no no no.

I used Klopp et al as extreme examples of managers who you would absolutely warrant patience due to their undoubted history and quality. And what Im saying is AvB has no such weight of evidence neither historically nor from what we are seeing currently so I dont understand the call for patience under the assumption he is working towards something.

Hence its largely a leap of faith that he will turn it around or get it right, rather then being formed by informed opinion or prior successes .. is that not a fair point? People saying he will turn it around given time, just like ferguson did are missing the point.

I honestly dont know who, which is why im not actually jumping up and down and shouting AvB out. But I think the tipping point is coming whereby we will need to accept that perhaps he is a lame duck and think about who can take us forward.

Im sort of sticking to my ascertation that the penny was beginning to drop before the City game, Im even willing to suspend reality and accept it was a fluke of a result and too soon to expect the penny to have any impact,. But for me serious signs of addressing our issues need to be displayed over the next handful of games.

Again though by your own standards you are effectively saying that any manager who doesn't have rock solid past experience should only get what, one season? Or even 12 games if you consider that AVB has had to start again.

If AVB had been able to keep Bale and build on that team then fair enough the current performances would be completely unacceptable, but he's rebuilt the entire squad and that, for me, gives him at least this season to prove himself.

One thing I have noticed is that nobody is getting on Baldini's case at the moment. Considering he's the one who made the decisions regarding the players we've brought in, I think he has to be under a similar amount of pressure.

 

[CowInAComa]

Again though by your own standards you are effectively saying that any manager who doesn't have rock solid past experience should only get what, one season? Or even 12 games if you consider that AVB has had to start again.

If AVB had been able to keep Bale and build on that team then fair enough the current performances would be completely unacceptable, but he's rebuilt the entire squad and that, for me, gives him at least this season to prove himself.

One thing I have noticed is that nobody is getting on Baldini's case at the moment. Considering he's the one who made the decisions regarding the players we've brought in, I think he has to be under a similar amount of pressure.

Im saying that managers should get as long as they deserve. If progress is being made, great, thats a good reason for persisting with a manager. If you have a proven world class managers thats a good reason for persisting with a manager when things are looking ropey.

If you see no signs of progress and your manager has no history of proven success, what do you gain from persisting with them?

It all comes down to whether you truly believe what you are seeing shows sign of AvB getting us where we want to be or considering the strength of the squad where we should be. If you see what is happening on the pitch, over the last 18 months/12 games/whatever and think there is something there to be optimistic about then by all means advocate sticking with him.

 

[Spurs_Q8]

1- Giovani Trappatoni and Tim Sherwood as his assistant
2- Laudrup
3- Glenn Hoddle

one of those would be good for me.

 

[dudu]

Im saying that managers should get as long as they deserve. If progress is being made, great, thats a good reason for persisting with a manager. If you have a proven world class managers thats a good reason for persisting with a manager when things are looking ropey.

If you see no signs of progress and your manager has no history of proven success, what do you gain from persisting with them?

It all comes down to whether you truly believe what you are seeing shows sign of AvB getting us where we want to be or considering the strength of the squad where we should be. If you see what is happening on the pitch, over the last 18 months/12 games/whatever and think there is something there to be optimistic about then by all means advocate sticking with him.

great points. cant really argue with any of them but i do understand what TSH is saying - its relative to the situation which i believe is what you are really saying to.... you guys just disagree on how much the current situation should allow in terms of time.

There is a precedent...

Junde and AVB had very similar situations. Both had their talisman sold, both bought a relatively new first team/squad to start a new season with.

Juande foooked it all up from the get go in his new season and was rightly dismissed for dismal displays and losing the dressing room.

AVB needs to do something quick to bring this team back to life because it is currently 1 point from 3 games and if he even comes close to mimicking the form of JR he will be shown the door so there is precedent for it.

Harry too was given a fair amount of time based on his achievements but ultimately was also shown the dorr for not really progressing us in relative terms to the years he was at the club and the players he had at his disposal.

 

[krafty007]

"Possibly" the best squad we have ever had, "probably" the worst football we have ever produced.-----I don't like when managers/coaches are unfairly sacked but AVB "DOES NOT UNDERSTAND SPURS" or english football/mentality, so if we can get Laudrop/Potchitono or a.n.other of that ilk, do it. Hindsight is a bit** but shame we didn't appoint R.Martinez at the time. Anyhooo we aint gonna be happy until we see some good football back at the Lane-COYS

 

[mill]

[quproblem"Archibald&Crooks, post: 3708549, member: 3646"]He'll know that it's a short term gig. Six months to a year or so, one sticky patch and he's up the road with a fat payoff trousered. Shrewd.[/quote]


My problem with this avb team isn't about the current results, 'one sticky patch', we've been dog shit boring the whole time apart from bale papering over the cracks last season, we don't seem to be making any progress at all and of course without bale, regressing

 

[MattyP]

"Possibly" the best squad we have ever had, "probably" the worst football we have ever produced.-----I don't like when managers/coaches are unfairly sacked but AVB "DOES NOT UNDERSTAND SPURS" or english football/mentality, so if we can get Laudrop/Potchitono or a.n.other of that ilk, do it. Hindsight is a bit** but shame we didn't appoint R.Martinez at the time. Anyhooo we aint gonna be happy until we see some good football back at the Lane-COYS

Have you been drinking?

AVB understands Tottenham just fine. Look up his quotes, you'll see it if you take your blinkers off.

Under AVB we achieved the highest points in a season in the Premier League, followed by our best start to a Premier League season. The same AVB that PSG made a couple of attempts to get over the summer and Madrid were allegedly sniffing around.

Yes, we've not been playing well and not been scoring many, and whilst he is under pressure I see no reason to sack him.

Who is out there that is available and better?

 

[Rethink]

..... Match of the day just summed it nicely. We are as wide as a young virgins fanny and devoid of any creativity, pressure and speed. ....

Blimey MOTD are getting a bit risque these days, I know its on after the watershed, but christ

 

[CowInAComa]

Have you been drinking?

AVB understands Tottenham just fine. Look up his quotes, you'll see it if you take your blinkers off.

Under AVB we achieved the highest points in a season in the Premier League, followed by our best start to a Premier League season. The same AVB that PSG made a couple of attempts to get over the summer and Madrid were allegedly sniffing around.

Yes, we've not been playing well and not been scoring many, and whilst he is under pressure I see no reason to sack him.

Who is out there that is available and better?

Im not sure 20 points from 12 games is our best start to the season is it?

Whens the bus parade anyway?

 

[shelfboy68]

Have you been drinking?

AVB understands Tottenham just fine. Look up his quotes, you'll see it if you take your blinkers off.

Under AVB we achieved the highest points in a season in the Premier League, followed by our best start to a Premier League season. The same AVB that PSG made a couple of attempts to get over the summer and Madrid were allegedly sniffing around.

Yes, we've not been playing well and not been scoring many, and whilst he is under pressure I see no reason to sack him.

Who is out there that is available and better?

Dont think psg or Madrid would come sniffing at the moment though do you plus if the club do their research I'm sure they can find someone else.