Will there ever come a day when people are allowed to dislike players?

[Spurger King]

It's a difficult one. On one hand I can understand the view that people who pay their money feel that they have the right to express their feelings however they want. Football is above all things an emotional experience, and often incredibly cathartic. I can imagine that many see it as a release, which can come out in the form of celebrating a goal, supportive chanting, or if frustrated, in aggression/abuse.

On the other hand I'd never dream of shouting abuse when actually at a game. Sunday will be only the 4th game of the season I'll be able to attend, and for me it's still a special feeling just being at the Lane, let alone having the opportunity to support my team in person. I'll be cheering on and supporting every one of our players from beginning to end (which is not to say I won't criticise some of them on places like this forum after the game).

It's depressing being surrounded by small groups of people that hurl vile abuse at some of our players from kick-off to final whistle. I was at the Norwich game when boos were ringing out, and I was there when we lost to Wigan in a game that was heavy with a maudlin atmosphere.

I understand the abuse, but I'll never agree with it. And when I'm fortunate enough to watch Spurs in person, I'll certainly never be a part of it.

 

[Lufti]

Afaiac, any criticism is valid as long as it is well reasoned - the problem is, a lot of it is not well reasoned.



What do you base this on? I would be interested to know. My perspective on it is that he is a squad player, and should be judged as a squad player. He should be judged on what his role is on the team, not who others imagine he is, or should be, replacing. The prime example was at the start of the season: he was played in a midfield with Sandro. Folk automatically assumed that Sandro was playing the midfield enforcer role and, therefore, blamed Livermore for not being creative like Modric. But trhe midfield enforcer suited to him than the Modric role. Or on Sunday, he was included as part of a 3 man midfield (and almost certainly wouldn't have been had Sandro been fit), with the intention of locking the midfield down in order to prevent Liverpool from feeding their creative attack. The tactic worked - he played his part in that, as a squad player, while a better player is injured. That's it, nothing else.
He shouldn't be judged harshly for not being Modric.
He shouldn't be judged harshly for not being Ghoddle.
He shouldn't be judged harshly for not being a 1st teamer.
He is a squad player, who has never openly complained about being one, who is reasonably versatile. He came through our youth system and fulfills home grown criteria. Who do you think we could get who is substantially better than him, who will accept being a squad player, on similar wages, who will help us meet our quotas?

I look at him on the basis that he is a premiership football playing for one of the top teams in one of the top leagues in the world and is being paid thousands of pounds a week. What he contributes doesn't live up to that description and as Greenspur stated, I would rather see Carroll in that role. You see Livermore as versatile while I see him as not really having a strength to his game. He can follow instructions to a certain degree and has good athleticism and physicality to him but that is about it. The games against Inter and Liverpool, which, although are only 2 games, are his most recent games and his only starts for a fairly long time meaning it's therefore fair that he should be judged to an extent on these. Against Liverpool, yes, he followed instructions and closed down and marked the opposition fairly well. But this is a skill which can be found in literally any defensive midfielder in the premiership. More noticeably, he showed that he's quite worryingly inept at passing, even very simple short passing. The worst case which comes to mind was against Inter when, after the ball was thrown to him, under little pressure he played the ball over the touchline in a poor attempt at passing the ball back to whoever took the throw. While, as you stated, he's only a squad player, if you look at it from the perspective of him being a player at a supposed top 4 team who will play a part during the course of the season, is he really good enough?

Though he is young, at the same time, in modern football by the age of 23 players are expected to be able to offer a bit more to a match than he does I would say. I wouldn't be surprised nor saddened if he left the club in the summer, and I think our defensive midfield options look brighter as Dembele, Sandro, Parker, Holtby and Carroll rather than with Livermore. Either way, I'm not the type to boo him or turn against him, so long as he's a Spurs player he has my support, I just think that even as a squad player, he's not really a great option..

 

[Berbatonghen]

One of the most common reasons you would find a few clowns (funny enough could be myself too) ranting about a player on here could simply be within the heat of the moment.

With me i am so passionate whilst watching a game i do tend to swear at a player when he would make a mistake (livemore and parker killed me against inter) that i would automatically come back on this beautiful web site to vent out my fustrations.

But saying that, that does not mean at all that i dislike the player/human. Whoever plays for our club will always get my backing but it is totally fine to have a view of a player and think "you know what, i honestly dont think his good enough to play at this level/team, but i hope he proves me wrong".

Its like when ade scored. Being totally honest im not his greatest of fans and would like us to most definitely replace him next season, but when he slid that ball into the back of the net i was like "ohhhhh thank youuuuuu god, now please ade i hope you can kick on from now on mate" i was genuinely happy for him.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinions and should take it on the chin if your opinion will be disagreed with especially during match days where most people will passionately observe the game with anger if a player plays badly.

Now please dont target my name during match days lol

 

[BK007]

There are many people on here who will accuse others of skewering some players because they are "home grown".

That's a bloody riot, after all, we can't have objective opinions and figure out they just don't make the cut, wherever they might come from, only you can.

 

[Gassin's finest]

The fuck? I quite deliberately and clearly stated "it's not fair to give them direct abuse" and i would assume the connotations of the thread would have covered that i don't agree with blaming it on their past history.

The fuck? I think if you read it back again I don't actually mention you at all. If anything I'm agreeing with you. And I'm the one unable to interpret basic english?

 

[tototoner]

I do not dislike any of our players but there are a few of them I think are very average

I do not agree with booing at games at all, it only helps the opposition

 

[StartingPrice]

Carroll? Let Parker hold.

TBH, I don't really see what you are saying with these comments.
I referred to the start of the season, when Parker was injured and Dembélé was unavailable. I didn't say I, personally, wouldn't have preferred Carroll playing - anyone who reads the U-21s thread, or more generally, discussions of the younglings, would know that I have been beating on about Tommy Carroll for a few years, now, as I rate him massively. And I have given evidence of things I have seen that suggest AVB rates him as well. But neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on these forums is privvy to the inner workings of the training centre, or of just how well players are performing on the training pitch. My comment was specifically related to the fact that, having played both Sandro and Livermore (so naming possible alternatives is irrelevant, AVB played them, we are dealing with that), many members of the forum immediately criticised Livermore for not being creative enough, and made no comment at all of whether Sandro was remotely creative or not, or not creative enough. As seen as we all know that they would both fulfill the more defensive roles in the game, and neither was a Modric replacement, and that AVB never, at any stage, put said he was putting Sandro in to fulfill the defensive role and Livermore to fulfill the creative role, that seems somewhat harsh to me. The purpose of my post was to highlight ways that he is being unfairly criticised without a great deal of reason - so as to distinguish it from when a player, Livermore or any other player, is worthy of heavy criticism.
I also mentioned the Liverpool game, on Sunday: Parker was playing the holding role. Again, I never mentioned whether I would have preferred Carroll to have played or not. What I said was that he was drafted in to fulfill a specific function - AVB wanted three combative players in midfield to shut down the centre of the pitch and prevent Liverpool feeding their creative attack. It worked - so Livermore fulfilled his function. What on Earth is the point of criticising a player for fulfilling his function? You or I or Mohammad-I'm-Hard-Bruce-Lee might think it Carroll would have been a better option, but Livermore fulfilled his function and we lost that game due to two defensive cluster-fecks, neither of which was down to Livermore.

I'm not saying that no-one is allowed to criticise Livermore, or that AVB should be forced to play him until the end of his playing career - we all know he is slightly limited and wouldn't get near our first team, even if we played a three man midfield, if all our players was fit. And that is the whole point - he is a squad player. Just who do you think we should have taking up his squad place, who would be significantly better, not cost a lot of money, and be happy to be so far down the pecking order? Would I be happy if someone better came through the youth ranks who could fulfill all of those criteria - well, of course I bluddy-well would*, but the last player we had who did that was O'Hara and we all remember that he was not prepared to be a squad player. All I am asking is for a bit of realism about what his function is and anything that doesn't appreciate that he is just a relatively low-level squad player and judges him based on the standards of Sandro or Parker just is not judging him fairly IMHO.
*And, again, referencing the U-21s thread and the youth set-up, I think we have better players than Livermore coming through - but, again, I am just not sure that any of those better players would be prepared to stay in such a long-term limited role (3rd/4th choice for any given role?), as long as he has/will.

 

[StartingPrice]

1) I look at him on the basis that he is a premiership football playing for one of the top teams in one of the top leagues in the world and is being paid thousands of pounds a week.
2) What he contributes doesn't live up to that description and
3) as Greenspur stated, I would rather see Carroll in that role.
4) You see Livermore as versatile while I see him as not really having a strength to his game.
5) He can follow instructions to a certain degree and has good athleticism and physicality to him but that is about it.
6) The games against Inter and Liverpool, which, although are only 2 games, are his most recent games and his only starts for a fairly long time meaning it's therefore fair that he should be judged to an extent on these. Against Liverpool, yes, he followed instructions and closed down and marked the opposition fairly well. But this is a skill which can be found in literally any defensive midfielder in the premiership.
7) More noticeably, he showed that he's quite worryingly inept at passing, even very simple short passing. The worst case which comes to mind was against Inter when, after the ball was thrown to him, under little pressure he played the ball over the touchline in a poor attempt at passing the ball back to whoever took the throw.
8) While, as you stated, he's only a squad player, if you look at it from the perspective of him being a player at a supposed top 4 team who will play a part during the course of the season, is he really good enough?

9) Though he is young, at the same time, in modern football by the age of 23 players are expected to be able to offer a bit more to a match than he does I would say.
10) I wouldn't be surprised nor saddened if he left the club in the summer, and
11) I think our defensive midfield options look brighter as Dembele, Sandro, Parker, Holtby and Carroll rather than with Livermore.
12) Either way, I'm not the type to boo him or turn against him, so long as he's a Spurs player he has my support,
13) I just think that even as a squad player, he's not really a great option..

Please read in conjunction with reply to Greenspur, above - save me repeating too much, ta

1) And I look at it on the basis that he is 3rd/4th choice, we are not a rich club, and anyone that believes even United, Citeh or Chelsea has some kind of Maradonna-Pele-Sandro being 3rd/4th choice and happy with that status is just simply delusional. Realism is all I ask. I doubt he is being paid a huge amount - a considerable upgrade, even one happy to be 3rd/4th choice (if you can find such a thang ), willing to be paid his wages, at a club like ours and who doesn't cost much - if you can find him, I, personally, will mail Dan Levy and tell him to get the guy

2) Dispute - and that is the whole point. I think he does, and the critique of him is based on unreal expectations. Evidence would suggest that anyone who works with him, including AVB, agrees with me. I believe Defoe would fit your description better

3) Please see my response to Greenspur, above

4) ?Que?

5) Would be better if he was also Bale-Ronaldo-Messi-esque, I agree

6) Then where is the problem? Any other midfield who could do that against Liverpool who would be happy to be 3rd/4th choice for us?

7) You mean...like Scotty Parker is being constantly accused off on these very forums? Hell, I can remember pass-maestro (and alround ****y rat-boy) Luka Modric completely fecking up passes. And that is my fear, is that folk who are being Uber-critical and not accepting his status as a squad player, 3rd/4th choice for his position, are storing away memories of a stray pass or two, and using it to confirm a prior conclusion, where a better player would be forgiven and remembered for the passes that don't go astray. I would expect him to make more mis-passes than, say, Sandro, that is why Sandro is 1st choice and Livermore 3rd/4th.

8) Please see my response to Greenspur, above

9) Well, yeah, especially if he was 1st, 2nd, maybe even 3rd choice.

10) Neither would I - I am always happy for us to upgrade on players, as long as you can find someone cheap and significantly better who will be happy to be 3rd/4th choice. I never said I wouldn't be happy with an upgrade, I never even said he should be immune from criticism, I said some of the criticism is unfair and, often, irrational.

11) So do I - see response to Greenspur, above (Apart from carroll, are you really suggeting we play Tommy Carroll as a defensive midfielder? ).

12) Good stuff.

13) I agree...I'm just not so sure as you that we can get better who will be cheap and happy to be 3rd/4th choice.

Fundamentally, I think you have totally misunderstood what I was saying - I'm not saying he is great, or a preferred option, or better than Carroll, or beyond criticism. Just saying that criticism should be realistic, reasonable and fair

C,mon, now, Lewis...we all know you want his place

 

[Ionman34]

The mind boggles.

 

[Col_M]

about 3-5 seasons ago i really didn't like the majority of players or management at Spurs. that'd has changed gradually but there are still a couple who i wish we'd sell on or release. they hold us back

 

[Lufti]

C,mon, now, Lewis...we all know you want his place

Foiled again. I think ultimately it's a difference of opinions. I understand where you coming from with regards to him being only a squad player, a youngster and someone willing to warm the bench for the majroity of the season which is pretty hard to come by. (P.S. when I say Carroll as a defensive midfielder I mean more of a Deep Lying Playmaker, alongside a DM similar to where Modric played).

Still, and it's not easy for me to say this, geniunely, despite Livermore having youth on his side, Jenas could probably have been a more effective squad player, had he been happy to sit on the bench. I'd be interested to know the last time we won a game against Premiership or European opposition in which Livermore had played 45 minutes or more in. Off the top of my head, this season, he's played at least 45 against Newcastle Away, West Brom Home, Norwich Home, Liverpool Away and Inter away. Out of those we have 2 draws (the 2 games at home) and 3 losses. Just saying..

 

[StartingPrice]

Foiled again. I think ultimately it's a difference of opinions. I understand where you coming from with regards to him being only a squad player, a youngster and someone willing to warm the bench for the majroity of the season which is pretty hard to come by. (P.S. when I say Carroll as a defensive midfielder I mean more of a Deep Lying Playmaker, alongside a DM similar to where Modric played).

Still, and it's not easy for me to say this, geniunely, despite Livermore having youth on his side, Jenas could probably have been a more effective squad player, had he been happy to sit on the bench. I'd be interested to know the last time we won a game against Premiership or European opposition in which Livermore had played 45 minutes or more in. Off the top of my head, this season, he's played at least 45 against Newcastle Away, West Brom Home, Norwich Home, Liverpool Away and Inter away. Out of those we have 2 draws (the 2 games at home) and 3 losses. Just saying..

I'm watching you, Holtby

Seriously, I'm not saying Livermore is a particularly good player, and I certainly believe Carroll is far more talented than him I'm not even arguing that anyone should not want someone else in the line-up. All I am saying is that there seems to be a lot of spite directed at him, and some of it is just seems plain illogical. So, for instance, with the Liverpool game, AVB chose the formation, he did so for a reason, it worked, Livermore functioned fine within it, and we lost due to our own profligacy and two defensive cluster-fecks, none of which actually involved Livermore. So it just plain doesn't make any sense to whinge about him being in the team for that match.

I was never as anti-Jenas as some on here, and I did say that it was a disgrace that he was booed when coming onto the pitch at the start of the season, after AVB had said that every player was getting a fresh start. AVB (y'know, the guy who, like, understands the game far better than us and actually makes the decisions) might have felt that Jenas would be a decent squad member (and could have got him playing at something close to what he is capable of) - but some boo-boys decided they knew better, and made it absolutely impossible for AVB to play him again.

 

[Lufti]

I'm watching you, Holtby

Seriously, I'm not saying Livermore is a particularly good player, and I certainly believe Carroll is far more talented than him I'm not even arguing that anyone should not want someone else in the line-up. All I am saying is that there seems to be a lot of spite directed at him, and some of it is just seems plain illogical. So, for instance, with the Liverpool game, AVB chose the formation, he did so for a reason, it worked, Livermore functioned fine within it, and we lost due to our own profligacy and two defensive cluster-fecks, none of which actually involved Livermore. So it just plain doesn't make any sense to whinge about him being in the team for that match.

I was never as anti-Jenas as some on here, and I did say that it was a disgrace that he was booed when coming onto the pitch at the start of the season, after AVB had said that every player was getting a fresh start. AVB (y'know, the guy who, like, understands the game far better than us and actually makes the decisions) might have felt that Jenas would be a decent squad member (and could have got him playing at something close to what he is capable of) - but some boo-boys decided they knew better, and made it absolutely impossible for AVB to play him again.

Yeah and I agree with the majoirty of what you say Likewise, I'm not saying that it was Livermore's fault that we lost against Liverpol, but I'm just suggesting that perhaps we could have won some of these matches had someone else, ehem, like Holtby been selected

 

[Syn_13]

Yeah and I agree with the majoirty of what you say Likewise, I'm not saying that it was Livermore's fault that we lost against Livermore, but I'm just suggesting that perhaps we could have won some of these matches had someone else, ehem, like Holtby been selected

 

[StartingPrice]

Beat me to it...maybe we should cut Lewis some slack, after all, English is only his third language, after German and Scouse

Yeah and I agree with the majoirty of what you say Likewise, I'm not saying that it was Livermore's fault that we lost against Livermore, but I'm just suggesting that perhaps we could have won some of these matches had someone else, ehem, like Holtby been selected

I think you slightly misconstrued my original post, Lufti, I wasn't using yours as an example of a horribly unbalanced and irrational attack on Livermore, just using the fact that you made a post on Livermore to answer the question of the OP - that it is okay to be peeved with a player as long as the criticism is rational and fair. I think the only difference between us is that I am basing my assessment of him on the fact that, with all players fit, he is something between third and fourth choice, and there has to be a certain realism about the quality of player we can get to play that role

If there is a player ATM who truly deserves the ire of Spurs fans, IMVHO, it is Jermaine Defoe, not for being in a barren run, but for persisting in being ridiculously selfish and greedy, no matter what. But even that, as demonstrated in the current threads concerning him and Adebayor, is unacceptable to some, who leap to his defence (somewhat bizarrely, IMVHO).

 

[Lufti]

Beat me to it...maybe we should cut Lewis some slack, after all, English is only his third language, after German and Scouse



I think you slightly misconstrued my original post, Lufti, I wasn't using yours as an example of a horribly unbalanced and irrational attack on Livermore, just using the fact that you made a post on Livermore to answer the question of the OP - that it is okay to be peeved with a player as long as the criticism is rational and fair. I think the only difference between us is that I am basing my assessment of him on the fact that, with all players fit, he is something between third and fourth choice, and there has to be a certain realism about the quality of player we can get to play that role

If there is a player ATM who truly deserves the ire of Spurs fans, IMVHO, it is Jermaine Defoe, not for being in a barren run, but for persisting in being ridiculously selfish and greedy, no matter what. But even that, as demonstrated in the current threads concerning him and Adebayor, is unacceptable to some, who leap to his defence (somewhat bizarrely, IMVHO).

Hm, yeah, but I think Defoe's goals at the start of the season when no one else was up to much, and the fact he's been a great servant for us over the years allows him some slack to be given. Though I do find it annoying when he tries to shoot at every given opportunity, I also think if he gets 1 goal he'll go on a bit of a streak, and we desperately need a few goals from the strikers. Adebayor though, is a renowned mercenary (in footballing terms, he doesn't kill for money... erm, as far as I'm aware), and it seems a bit more than a coincidence that this season he isn't playing as well as last. But anyway, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and to be honest I don't care who scores the goals up front, just as long as someone does. Heck, Lloris said he used to play as a striker as well as a goalkeeper, put Friedel between the sticks and let's see what he can do

 

[Syn_13]

If there is a player ATM who truly deserves the ire of Spurs fans, IMVHO, it is Jermaine Defoe, not for being in a barren run, but for persisting in being ridiculously selfish and greedy, no matter what. But even that, as demonstrated in the current threads concerning him and Adebayor, is unacceptable to some, who leap to his defence (somewhat bizarrely, IMVHO).

I think this, more than anything, is the most frustrating sight on the pitch. More than Walker's mishaps, more than Adebayor's inability to score or look enthusiastic around pitch, more than Parker's tilt-a-whirl and shit passing, more than Friedel being rooted on his line, more than Dawson's Hollywood balls, more than Gallas' high line mishaps, more than Caulker's deafness, more than Dempsey's disappearing acts, more than BAE's Cruyff turns in his own area and silly penalty giveaways, and more than Bale's diving. (Have I missed anything? )

Every player has their weaknesses, the better players have less weaknesses, and a lot of fans here get fed up with a myriad of the above things I've mentioned. Some I'm bothered about, others not so, just commenting on what I've noticed from posters. But by far the most frustrating thing is that fucking shift and shoot that Defoe persists in doing. He gets the right hump when players don't pass to him, and fair enough because he is the striker. But perhaps if you were to pass yourself at crucial times instead of blindly smashing it into the defender 2 feet in front of you then maybe team mates might trust you a bit more! And to think, I'm not even a Defoe-hater. He has his uses and I liked how he was a bit of a super-sub last year when Ade was on form.

When he's on a purple patch then fine, I don't mind him going for it as he seems to have that confidence and ability to find the back of the net. But when he's in a rut he should know, as an experienced player of 30 years of age, to mix things up a bit and try a different approach.

 

[Lufti]

I think this, more than anything, is the most frustrating sight on the pitch. More than Walker's mishaps, more than Adebayor's inability to score or look enthusiastic around pitch, more than Parker's tilt-a-whirl and shit passing, more than Friedel being rooted on his line, more than Dawson's Hollywood balls, more than Gallas' high line mishaps, more than Caulker's deafness, more than Dempsey's disappearing acts, more than BAE's Cruyff turns in his own area and silly penalty giveaways, and more than Bale's diving. (Have I missed anything? )

Every player has their weaknesses, the better players have less weaknesses, and a lot of fans here get fed up with a myriad of the above things I've mentioned. Some I'm bothered about, others not so, just commenting on what I've noticed from posters. But by far the most frustrating thing is that fucking shift and shoot that Defoe persists in doing. He gets the right hump when players don't pass to him, and fair enough because he is the striker. But perhaps if you were to pass yourself at crucial times instead of blindly smashing it into the defender 2 feet in front of you then maybe team mates might trust you a bit more! And to think, I'm not even a Defoe-hater. He has his uses and I liked how he was a bit of a super-sub last year when Ade was on form.

When he's on a purple patch then fine, I don't mind him going for it as he seems to have that confidence and ability to find the back of the net. But when he's in a rut he should know, as an experienced player of 30 years of age, to mix things up a bit and try a different approach.

More than Parker's pirouettes and sideways passes?

 

[Syn_13]

More than Parker's pirouettes and sideways passes?

Tilt-a-whirl and shit passing covers that.

And yes, more than that. Parker at least brings something to the game at times, whereas Defoe doesn't if he isn't scoring. Hell, at least Adebayor brings more to the game than Defoe even if not scoring and not in form and that's saying something!

 

[Lufti]

Tilt-a-whirl and shit passing covers that.

And yes, more than that. Parker at least brings something to the game at times, whereas Defoe doesn't if he isn't scoring. Hell, at least Adebayor brings more to the game than Defoe even if not scoring and not in form and that's saying something!

Ah bugger, I thought you hadn't written about Parker. Even read it twice. Hold on, let me just phone my opticians!

Okay, I'm going to add Walker's crossing/corners and Dempsey's touch to the list .