Would you take Jol back now?

[joey55]

What a huge contradiction. I don't know how oldyou are EB but I'm 43 and I can't remember 2 better days than the night we stuffed arse 5-1 in a semi and the day we stuffed chelsea in the final. I was at wembley for the ManC 3-2 and I don't even think that was as sweet. The reality is we were never going to win the league last year, this year or next under Jol and were unlikely to win anything - as we had had much better chances with Jol and fucked them up. What Ramos achieved right there was probably our most memorable cup success for 40 years. Lets try not to belittle that eh ? You have no idea whether Ramos has a greater degree of control than Jol. From all the comments made it would appear none whatsoever in terms of signing autonomy otherwise we would have seen Arshavin etc here regardless of money, just a better judgement of our weakness and the ability to help attract a better quality of player than Jol.




The point was this time last year the question was exactly the same, "how far had we come under Jol". The answer was about 13 league places in reverse gear. And Jol had three years to get the hang of it. If you were not wanting Jol replaced then, why are you wanting Ramos replaced with Jol now.


The board would never ask Jol back, so why keep bleeting and whining on about him.

B-C you are getting beyond ridiculous now. We didn't stuff Chelsea, but we beat them fairly and squarely. But most importantly Jol didn't have better chances and fuck them all up. It's this kind of ignorance that has caused you such humiliation over the last year and the sting of which is evident in your ever more absurd posts regarding the Jol era. When Jol played Arsenal in the semi finals we did it without JJ, King and only had Berbatov for 20 mins of the 2 legs. When Berba was on the pitch we were 2-0 up and cruising, but he got injured. Do you really believe for a second we'd have beaten Arsenal under Ramos last season without King (who was superb) JJ (who broke brilliantly from midfield to score) or Berbatov? Of course not. In fact Jol didn't even have Lennon for the 2nd leg, so you can't compare.

It's the same with Chelsea. We went 3-1 up against a side that hadn't been beaten at home for 3 years. I don't think any other team had gone to the Bridge in that time and taken a 2 goal lead. Instead of praising Jol for coaching the team to get into such a position, certain people criticised him for not holding onto the lead. But, look at the players he had at his disposal. No matter what changes he made, Chelsea were going to throw the kitchen sink at us. FFS they were one of the best teams in Europe who simply don't lose at home. If Jol had Woodgate and King at his disposal would he not have stood a far greater chance of holding onto the lead? Actually go to some effort and bother to compare the players the two managers (Jol and Ramos) had available, before saying he fucked it up. You just come across as hugely ignorant to the facts.

And don't bother trying to hide behind what happend at the the end of Jol's reign, when he was already a dead man walking, because you wanted him out long before that.

Also, don't bother saying Ramos better identified the positons of the squad that needed strengthening as that is clearly utter bollox. In Jol's book he makes it clear he wanted an experiecned CB and CM, but was denied them. The fact we bought a CB and CM, should give you some indiction he asked for players in those positions. It's also obvious he asked for a LW, hence we tried for Nani, Young, Dowing and Petrov.

You are right in that there is no point going on about it, but at the same time, show some dignity and admit you got it hugley wrong. That should have been clear to you last Jan when we had to spend £20 million on players (in the positions jol had already requested) and would have signed more had they agreed to come. It should have been clear to you by the end of last season when we failed even to match Jol's league performance after he took over fro Santini and it should be perfeclty clear to you now. Jol's gone and is unlikley to be back, but hopefully we can correct the mistakes we made by sacking him in other ways. The club have learned a valuable lesson from this and hopefully they can learn from it. So should you. At least show some respect for the achievements during Jols period in charge. It's as if you hate the guy for taking us forward, which I just can't get my head round. He's gone now, so you might aswell not bother posting about him or if you must post, then show him the respect he deserves.

 

[Liquidator]

The question was clearly hypothetical - but that's no bad thing - we all have "what if?" discussions in the pub.

Plus you never know - we might ask MJ back in a few years time.

I would not mind at all. Always thought Mr Jol would be a great guy to have a pint with too.

 

[eddiebailey]

What Joey said.

 

[punky]

TBH, I've not really forgiven Levy for sacking him in the first place, especially with the incredibly disrespectful way it was done. It was out of order and I think we're still paying the price.

That said, I don't think big MJ could come back. Its a different team now, more suited to Ramos than MJ. Plus he wouldn't want to come back, with the way Levy treated him and the way Comoli foisted players on to him that we're unwanted and naff. Nice to see Hamburg are doing alright.

Anyways, I think all talk about replacing Ramos is crazy. We really need to get behind him and the team.

 

[eddiebailey]

Plus he wouldn't want to come back, with the way Levy treated him

Jol has actually been rather careful not to burn his bridges with Levy.

 

[punky]

Jol has actually been rather careful not to burn his bridges with Levy.

If Jol would want to come back after being sacked by SMS mid-match, after being tapping up Ramos for 3 weeks, then he's a bigger man me. All credit to him.

 

[Coyboy]

Jol has actually been rather careful not to burn his bridges with Levy.

How do you mean, Eddie?

 

[eddiebailey]

How do you mean, Eddie?

After he left he was very complimentary about Levy's performance as Chairman.

 

[Bristol Coys]

Jol was badly treated and would be insane to work for these idiots again.
Ramos has been partly stitched up by slow transfer dealings, meaning that we did not replace 2 strikers and who had already left early (Defoe & Keane) and we let ManUre arse us about over Berbs. He also seems to be showing a lack of a clear tactical plan, but we have to stick with him AND get behind him. Booing the team off is NEVER going to help the team.

Arrrghh!!! This is the worst season since I started supporting Spurs and that is amongst some very shite seasons!

 

[Coyboy]

After he left he was very complimentary about Levy's performance as Chairman.

I seem to vaguely remember that, possibly a side swipe at Comolli.

 

[LadieK]

I agree that there is no point in looking back as this scenario just isn't going to happen right now.

I didn't want Jol to go and I do hope one day he does come back, but for now I'm just hoping the current board and players can get things sorted and get us moving up the table!

 

[Bristol Coys]

Team of Ex's

Like the wedding reception table from hell, here is a team of Spurs' ex's playing in the Prem. Would this lot do better than the current mob?

--------------------Robinson (so pleased to see him doing well)

------Chimbonda --- Kaboul --Davenport -- Tainio

----------Steed ----- Marney ----- Etherington

------------Berbs ---Crouch -- Defoe

Sub: Barmby, Reid, SCumball, Pamarot, Mendes

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C you are getting beyond ridiculous now. We didn't stuff Chelsea, but we beat them fairly and squarely. But most importantly Jol didn't have better chances and fuck them all up. It's this kind of ignorance that has caused you such humiliation over the last year and the sting of which is evident in your ever more absurd posts regarding the Jol era. When Jol played Arsenal in the semi finals we did it without JJ, King and only had Berbatov for 20 mins of the 2 legs. When Berba was on the pitch we were 2-0 up and cruising, but he got injured. Do you really believe for a second we'd have beaten Arsenal under Ramos last season without King (who was superb) JJ (who broke brilliantly from midfield to score) or Berbatov? Of course not. In fact Jol didn't even have Lennon for the 2nd leg, so you can't compare.

It's the same with Chelsea. We went 3-1 up against a side that hadn't been beaten at home for 3 years. I don't think any other team had gone to the Bridge in that time and taken a 2 goal lead. Instead of praising Jol for coaching the team to get into such a position, certain people criticised him for not holding onto the lead. But, look at the players he had at his disposal. No matter what changes he made, Chelsea were going to throw the kitchen sink at us. FFS they were one of the best teams in Europe who simply don't lose at home. If Jol had Woodgate and King at his disposal would he not have stood a far greater chance of holding onto the lead? Actually go to some effort and bother to compare the players the two managers (Jol and Ramos) had available, before saying he fucked it up. You just come across as hugely ignorant to the facts.

And don't bother trying to hide behind what happend at the the end of Jol's reign, when he was already a dead man walking, because you wanted him out long before that.

Also, don't bother saying Ramos better identified the positons of the squad that needed strengthening as that is clearly utter bollox. In Jol's book he makes it clear he wanted an experiecned CB and CM, but was denied them. The fact we bought a CB and CM, should give you some indiction he asked for players in those positions. It's also obvious he asked for a LW, hence we tried for Nani, Young, Dowing and Petrov.

You are right in that there is no point going on about it, but at the same time, show some dignity and admit you got it hugley wrong. That should have been clear to you last Jan when we had to spend £20 million on players (in the positions jol had already requested) and would have signed more had they agreed to come. It should have been clear to you by the end of last season when we failed even to match Jol's league performance after he took over fro Santini and it should be perfeclty clear to you now. Jol's gone and is unlikley to be back, but hopefully we can correct the mistakes we made by sacking him in other ways. The club have learned a valuable lesson from this and hopefully they can learn from it. So should you. At least show some respect for the achievements during Jols period in charge. It's as if you hate the guy for taking us forward, which I just can't get my head round. He's gone now, so you might aswell not bother posting about him or if you must post, then show him the respect he deserves.

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact.

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

 

[joey55]

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact.

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

:rofl:

 

[Bakez]

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact.

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl:

Maybe we would never progress into 'top 4' with Jol. But we fucking wont with Ramos. Who gives a shit about 'top 4' anyway? Who actually fucking cares about winning anymore? I want to go to each game and come away with a smile, I would rather we lost 6-5 than won 1-0. Jol gave everyone this, and most of the time we won aswell, and let's face it Ramos is a Grade A wanker and apart from 5-1 against Arsenal (and I didn't even really give a shit about that seeing as the nature of the competition) I never left the game with a smile or looked forward to each press conference like it was an Xmas day

 

[senseispab]

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact.

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

Nobody likes a smartass.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact.

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

'The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.' Bertrand Russell

 

[striebs]

Maybe we would never progress into 'top 4' with Jol. But we fucking wont with Ramos. Who gives a shit about 'top 4' anyway? Who actually fucking cares about winning anymore? I want to go to each game and come away with a smile, I would rather we lost 6-5 than won 1-0. Jol gave everyone this, and most of the time we won aswell, and let's face it Ramos is a Grade A wanker and apart from 5-1 against Arsenal (and I didn't even really give a shit about that seeing as the nature of the competition) I never left the game with a smile or looked forward to each press conference like it was an Xmas day

Don't hear much Juande Ramos blue and white army these days .

Wouldn't cost him any of the dizzying sums he's being paid to occassionally acknowledge the dumb suckers who make sacrifices to go to matches .


Success (and it doesn't look imminent) at what cost ?

 

[joey55]

Humiliated ? Stung ?

Hmmm lets see.....

I told you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough two years ago. You disagreed. Continuously. At length. As usual.

You’ll have to point me in the direction of the threads where I defended Robbo and Dawson at length. I think I pretty much stayed out of the Robbo argument and as for Dawson said he’d be better with an older defender to marshal him and he isn’t a leader. But still, you seem to think if the board think something then it must be right. I believe they just gave Dawson a new contract. I probably wouldn’t have.

I told you that it was Jol who didn't want a CB replacement for Dawson. You argued continuously. "he didn't get what he wanted blah blah". Read his own words about the recruitment of Kaboul.

I think you’ll find Jol did want new CB. Hence we asked for Kaboul, tried to buy Vlaar, and Jol’s attempts to buy Mathijsen from AZ were blocked by our board. Also in the words of Jol:
“The truth is that I needed another Ledley King in central defence. The Club’s policy of buying players for the future was a sound one, but there are occasions when you need a bit of experience, when you need a leader in certain areas of the pitch, like we needed Ledley at the back and didn’t have him due to injury this season, so we needed an experienced central defender.”
I’ll be very interested to see the quotes you have spoken about regarding what Jol said about the signing of Kaboul. Though, I suspect they don’t exist or don’t say whatever you are implying.

I told you that he was making mistakes and among that not having the bollocks to drop players like Dawson and Robinson would cost him. They Did.

Or perhaps the clubs inability to buy the CB and CM Jol needed cost him, in the same way similar events aren’t helping Juande now!

I told you that one of the problems recruiting quality players was Jol.

Berbatov? Davids? Jenas?


I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

Oh and how right you all were. I'm glad some people can see the positive side of our plight.

I told you that given the opportunity the board would step outside certain parametres and they have. You argues. For about 12 pages.

I think if you bothered to read Jol’s book that the boards refusal to step out of parameters were what cost him the players he wanted. Juande’s stark squad assessment is what changed things, not a long term willingness of the board to do so.

I told you that our spending would increase as a result of increased profitability. You argued for days. It did.

As much as I’m sure you like to delude yourself into thinking the crux of our argument was whether having more money meant having more spending power, I’m afraid it wasn’t. The point being made was that if you are making a £30 million profit, it suggests you are spending well within your means and if this could be preventing you from acquiring a certain type of player (ie Martin Petrov) and this could be detrimental to the team. Seeing what has happened since that argument, I think it’s safe to say I had a point! Especially given that this year it was announced that we had the lowest salary to turn over ratio in the Prem and that since the start of this year only 1 team has picked up less Prem points than us. My point was that having £30 million in the bank wasn’t going to have much impact on our spending and that we'd have been better off making less profit but spending more on wages. I think since the argument we’ve spent about net £15 million. That’s about the same as the last couple of years. But apart from those minor points – well done!

These are just a few of the many things I've told you that have been born out by fact. Bollocks!

Oh and I told you to change your avitar (it sort of gives away which one of us was actually humiliated and stung and a little bit bitter about the whole Jol thing)...

Ultimately anything you say on this subject is worthless. You made your call on what you saw as the problem and at the centre of it was Martin Jol. Well the last 10 months have proved you utterly wrong. He’s gone and we are no nearer challenging the top 4 than doing his time at the club. In fact we are further from it. You remind of the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, who despite having all his limbs and body cut off, he still wants to fight on. Give it a rest B-C. Hopefully the board can now see where the problems were and in the coming year or two fix them. In the right circumstances I think Juande can be successful, but he’s struggled terribly and had to deal with similar problems to Jol. You might have no respect for what Jol achieved here, but you can bet your life that over the lat 10 months Juande Ramos has come to respect Martin Jol immensely. You’d think you hate Spurs, the way you constantly snipe at the man that restored our pride. The trouble is the last 10 months have dented your pride and now you seem to hate him more than ever because of it. As I said before, I think you’d be better served not posting in Jol threads. I think you’ll enjoy the forum a lot more.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Ultimately anything you say on this subject is worthless. You made your call on what you saw as the problem and at the centre of it was Martin Jol. Well the last 10 months have proved you utterly wrong. He’s gone and we are no nearer challenging the top 4 than doing his time at the club. In fact we are further from it. You remind of the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, who despite having all his limbs and body cut off, he still wants to fight on. Give it a rest B-C. Hopefully the board can now see where the problems were and in the coming year or two fix them. In the right circumstances I think Juande can be successful, but he’s struggled terribly and had to deal with similar problems to Jol. You might have no respect for what Jol achieved here, but you can bet your life that over the lat 10 months Juande Ramos has come to respect Martin Jol immensely. You’d think you hate Spurs, the way you constantly snipe at the man that restored our pride. The trouble is the last 10 months have dented your pride and now you seem to hate him more than ever because of it. As I said before, I think you’d be better served not posting in Jol threads. I think you’ll enjoy the forum a lot more.

I disagree with some of this.