Would you take Jol back now?

[General Levy]

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Ultimately anything you say on this subject is worthless. You made your call on what you saw as the problem and at the centre of it was Martin Jol. Well the last 10 months have proved you utterly wrong. He’s gone and we are no nearer challenging the top 4 than doing his time at the club. In fact we are further from it. You remind of the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, who despite having all his limbs and body cut off, he still wants to fight on. Give it a rest B-C. Hopefully the board can now see where the problems were and in the coming year or two fix them. In the right circumstances I think Juande can be successful, but he’s struggled terribly and had to deal with similar problems to Jol. You might have no respect for what Jol achieved here, but you can bet your life that over the lat 10 months Juande Ramos has come to respect Martin Jol immensely. You’d think you hate Spurs, the way you constantly snipe at the man that restored our pride. The trouble is the last 10 months have dented your pride and now you seem to hate him more than ever because of it. As I said before, I think you’d be better served not posting in Jol threads. I think you’ll enjoy the forum a lot more.

I refer you to my earlier post which you couldn'r have read:

And you say I am not objective where Jol is concerned ?

Ramos took over a worse situation than Jol did from Santini. Fact.
The rest of the EPL was far poorer (financially and in player quality). Fact

You seem incapable of accepting that Jol made any mistakes. Making huge whaffling posts defending his every blunder. he never got his team, tactics wrong and never failed to motivate. Our fitness could never be questioned. You were still defending things like his refusal to drop Dawson and Robinson at the end of last year. Detaching yourself completely from the reality that both were huge liabilities that ultimately contributed to Jol's demise.

I have never said he was shit. If you look back far enough you will find me defending him - SS57 will bear this out - saying that although he is making some mistakes he is fundementally pretty good and on a learning curve and all managers make some - but he didn't learn from those mistakes and in fact compounded them.

The really weird thing is Joey that my opinion of Jol appears to have been shared by those that matter at our club. Also by those at the big four (or 5 including ManC), none of which decided to replace their managers with the uber points averaging (with King) Jol. How strange.

If you have read my posts last season or this you will know that I have criticised some of Ramos's teams and tactics too. Unlike you I don't let emotions cloud my assessment of any player or manager or owner. I just want the best for this club. Ramos may turn out not to be that but I completely understand the decision to go after him.

Perhaps in the interest of objectiveness you should sidestep Jol themed debates and leave them for those of that support spurs and not Martin Jol.

 

[rez9000]

I didn't want to get involved in this, but there was one thing you said BC that I really have to take issue with.

I told you that Jol ultimately wasn't good enough. Seems the board and the other top 4 teams agree with me.

Sorry, but which of the Top Four teams were looking for a manager when Jol was sacked?

 

[matjcole]

Didn't SAF want him as a number two back in the day?

 

[rez9000]

Didn't SAF want him as a number two back in the day?

Yes, he did. He was being considered by Man U, and he then took the job with us instead.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't want to get involved in this, but there was one thing you said BC that I really have to take issue with.

Sorry, but which of the Top Four teams were looking for a manager when Jol was sacked?

Chelsea were looking for a manager when Jol was out of work weren't they.
And I don't think having a manager precludes a board from going after a better one does it ?


JOEY

I refer you to an interview Jol gave where he spoke about the process of buying Kaboul. He actually went with Comoli to France to watch him and meet him. It was Jol who spoke to him in person and wanted to sign him.
If I have a few minutes I will try and dig it out.

Where did you get the information that our board bocked the signing of Mithijsen ?

 

[rez9000]

Chelsea were looking for a manager when Jol was out of work weren't they.

No. Avram Grant was installed on the 11th October, 2 weeks before BMJ was sacked by Spurs.

And I don't think having a manager precludes a board from going after a better one does it ?

Yes and no. The Top 4 have had excellent managers in place already. Martin Jol would have had to be significantly better than those in place for them to fire their incumbents and hire him. I don't think that side of your argument holds water.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Couldn't find the thread where someone posted the stuff about Comoli and it included Jol talking about going to buy Kaboul yet. But did find this quote from Jol from the mail which quotes Jol as saying Kaboul was the best young CB in Europe. Mail dated 15.08.2007.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-475376/Spurs-spanked-Jol-gamble-backfires.html

I'll keep looking for the other thing. I'm sure it was a thread on here that someone posted more in relation to Comolli - could have been Yanno.

 

[Rackybear]

Indeed rez.

Wenger and Ferguson were never going to be replaced by Jol were they, perhaps neither Benitez as he hasn't done too badly bar the league for liverpool. Chelsea were always going to go after a big name manager after mourinho's departure, and lets face it...scolari is better then Jol. But that does not make him a bad manager because the top 4 did not go after him. Jol is still very much a decent manager (ofcourse he has his flaws), but their are obviously better managers out their (ramos I believe one of them).

 

[joey55]

Chelsea were looking for a manager when Jol was out of work weren't they.
And I don't think having a manager precludes a board from going after a better one does it ?


JOEY

I refer you to an interview Jol gave where he spoke about the process of buying Kaboul. He actually went with Comoli to France to watch him and meet him. It was Jol who spoke to him in person and wanted to sign him.
If I have a few minutes I will try and dig it out.

Where did you get the information that our board bocked the signing of Mithijsen ?

So your reffering to the interview I posted here that Comolli gave and not Jol. I posted that interview as a condemnation of our transfer policy, not a vindication. Comolli used the example of kaboul, and by doing so admitted Jol had only seen him play once. A manager wouldn't sign a player he'd only seen play once and this doesn't tell him enough. You'd watch that player on several occassions. But in our sysytem the coach relies heavily on the opinion of the D of F. When kaboul first signed everyone had nothing but praise for the guy. So we all know he's capable of having a very good game. But we surely wouldn't want a manager to sign him on the strength of one good game would we?

I got the Mathijsen info from Glory Glory. A Hamburg itk posted some stuff about KPB and named some players that HSV were able to sign after initialy being told they were going to Spurs. I didn't post it here as it wasn't worth opening a whole new can of worms. The players in question were Mathijsen, De Jong, Castelan and Petrov (didn't go to HSV either). Basically their Dutch players. This was apparently one of the reasons why Biersedorf (sp?) wanted Jol as coach as he new they shared similar appreciation of players. I actually remember Castelan and De Jong being linked with us at the time.

 

[rez9000]

Indeed rez.

Wenger and Ferguson were never going to be replaced by Jol were they, perhaps neither Benitez as he hasn't done too badly bar the league for liverpool. Chelsea were always going to go after a big name manager after mourinho's departure, and lets face it...scolari is better then Jol. But that does not make him a bad manager because the top 4 did not go after him. Jol is still very much a decent manager (ofcourse he has his flaws), but their are obviously better managers out their (ramos I believe one of them).

True.

What you said about Ramos made me think of something. If certain players aren't good for certain clubs or playing in certain countries, could that not also be true for managers?

Perhaps Ramos, although a good manager, isn't a good manager for Spurs or not effective at the English game (I'm not subscribing to that view, merely postulating a hypothesis). What if it's not a question of getting a better manager, but rather a question of getting the right manager?

 

[joey55]

Couldn't find the thread where someone posted the stuff about Comoli and it included Jol talking about going to buy Kaboul yet. But did find this quote from Jol from the mail which quotes Jol as saying Kaboul was the best young CB in Europe. Mail dated 15.08.2007.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-475376/Spurs-spanked-Jol-gamble-backfires.html

I'll keep looking for the other thing. I'm sure it was a thread on here that someone posted more in relation to Comolli - could have been Yanno.

He aslo described Taarabt as "unbelievable." But it doesn't mean they were the players he wanted to take us forward. He saw potential in our sqaud but was aware that we wouldn't progress quickly with these players. he kept stressing the need for time, as though talented they were young and inexperienced. There is a big difference between recognising a players talent and potential and thinking that this is the player to help us here and now. You must know this, yet here you are still desperately trying to lay the blame at Jol's door. Give it up B-C! We aren't where we are now because of Jol.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Couldn't find the thread where someone posted the stuff about Comoli and it included Jol talking about going to buy Kaboul yet. But did find this quote from Jol from the mail which quotes Jol as saying Kaboul was the best young CB in Europe. Mail dated 15.08.2007.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-475376/Spurs-spanked-Jol-gamble-backfires.html

I'll keep looking for the other thing. I'm sure it was a thread on here that someone posted more in relation to Comolli - could have been Yanno.

The fact you use the daily mail as a source diminishes your rather argument.

 

[craig4589]

Never would have got rid of Jol in the firstplace, but at the end of the day he has gone and Ramos is here so we should get behind the current manager and have some faith.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So your reffering to the interview I posted here that Comolli gave and not Jol. I posted that interview as a condemnation of our transfer policy, not a vindication. Comolli used the example of kaboul, and by doing so admitted Jol had only seen him play once. A manager wouldn't sign a player he'd only seen play once and this doesn't tell him enough. You'd watch that player on several occassions. But in our sysytem the coach relies heavily on the opinion of the D of F. When kaboul first signed everyone had nothing but praise for the guy. So we all know he's capable of having a very good game. But we surely wouldn't want a manager to sign him on the strength of one good game would we?

I got the Mathijsen info from Glory Glory. A Hamburg itk posted some stuff about KPB and named some players that HSV were able to sign after initialy being told they were going to Spurs. I didn't post it here as it wasn't worth opening a whole new can of worms. The players in question were Mathijsen, De Jong, Castelan and Petrov (didn't go to HSV either). Basically their Dutch players. This was apparently one of the reasons why Biersedorf (sp?) wanted Jol as coach as he new they shared similar appreciation of players. I actually remember Castelan and De Jong being linked with us at the time.

Right, so you have no idea whatsoever whether our board blocked the signing of Mathijsen. I've said this before Joey but bullshit baffles fools.
You really should refrain from presenting bullshit as fact it discredits other things you say.

As far as the Kaboul thing goes it was someone elses post and Jol himself talked about the recruitment process regarding kaboul. How Comolli (amongst other EPL, Spanish etc) had watched him several times and shown Jol footage. Then Jol went over to watch and meet him.
He talked about how "they" decided that what was needed was a young "King" not an experienced CB as he felt Dawson had been his player of the year the previous season.

here are two stories which Jol and Kaboul talk about it (Jol calling him the new King)(Kaboul saying Jol was the major reason he came and also saying that Comolli spoke very highly of Jol):

http://www.eyefootball.com/news/1385/Kaboul:-I-joined-Spurs-for-Jol/

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_2728120,00.html

 

[joey55]

Right, so you have no idea whatsoever whether our board blocked the signing of Mathijsen. I've said this before Joey but bullshit baffles fools.
You really should refrain from presenting bullshit as fact it discredits other things you say.

As far as the Kaboul thing goes it was someone elses post and Jol himself talked about the recruitment process regarding kaboul. How Comolli (amongst other EPL, Spanish etc) had watched him several times and shown Jol footage. Then Jol went over to watch and meet him.
He talked about how "they" decided that what was needed was a young "King" not an experienced CB as he felt Dawson had been his player of the year the previous season.

here are two stories which Jol and Kaboul talk about it (Jol calling him the new King)(Kaboul saying Jol was the major reason he came and also saying that Comolli spoke very highly of Jol):

http://www.eyefootball.com/news/1385/Kaboul:-I-joined-Spurs-for-Jol/

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_2728120,00.html

I'd still like to see the interview you are talking about. I suspect you wont be able to find it. These two links show nothing other than Jol had met the player and thinks he has real potential. You must realise this in no way suggests this is the type of player Jol thought we needed. There has to be a disticntion between buying players for the future and buying them for now. They should be treated as seperate issue's. It dosn't mean Jol doesn't like the player or wnat himin his squad, but neither does it mean he didn't also want a different type of player. I've provided a quote that says he did.

I'll be honest and cut to the chase. i think you are lying about this Jol interviev in which he:
"talked about how "they" decided that what was needed was a young "King" not an experienced CB as he felt Dawson had been his player of the year the previous season.

I think you've just done a search for Kaboul stories and plucked bits out of each, mixed them together, so your story about Jol's interview sounds more convincing.

I'm sorry in advance if I'm wrong, but I do think you are lying.

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up plenty of quotes from Jol praising Kaboul, saying what a talent he is and how pleased we are to have him. But, that is Jol's way. Jol always spoke of the club as "we" and was prepared to work within the clubs strategy. That doesn't mean it's what he thought was best for the team. If you do find this elusive interivew where Jol says they thought they needed a young palyer, not an experienced player, then I again apologise. I suspect the closest thing you'll find is Jol reffereing to the clubs policy of buying youth rather than experience. But I just think you are trying to lay the blame for our problems at the wrong door and going to whatever lengths you can to do so. Also, I suspect you believe the Mathijsen story. It's just not exactly hard to belive that a Dutch coach would want to sign a Dutch International defender.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So because I expose your bullshit about our board blocking us signing Mathijsen you now retaliate by calling me a liar.

I'll keep trying to find the exact article but here is a quote from Jol calling Dawson his player of the season 2006-7

http://www.football.co.uk/tottenham_hotspur/spurs_extend_dawson_stay_246114.shtml

You already accept the existance of the article where Jol talks about going to see Kaboul.
I may have read two articles about Dawson being player of the season and Jol talking about the process of signing Kaboul but neither are lies and I'm sure he mentioned both factors together in the piece I originally referred to.

 

[joey55]

So because I expose your bullshit about our board blocking us signing Mathijsen you now retaliate by calling me a liar.

I'll keep trying to find the exact article but here is a quote from Jol calling Dawson his player of the season 2006-7

http://www.football.co.uk/tottenham_hotspur/spurs_extend_dawson_stay_246114.shtml

You already accept the existance of the article where Jol talks about going to see Kaboul.
I may have read two articles about Dawson being player of the season and Jol talking about the process of signing Kaboul but neither are lies and I'm sure he mentioned both factors together in the piece I originally referred to.

:rofl: Or alternatively you are just trying to scrape together different parts of interviews to give your fantasy interview some credibility.

B-C don't waste your time. None of it matters. Jol left 10 months ago. I think we had enough time to see if it was him holding us back or other factors. I'm sure given time the club can sort things out. Levy would have learned alot in the last year. Though he must carry the can to a large extent, the experiences he has gained could be pricless and should actually make him a much better chairman. I think the aim now has to be getting back to where we were during Jol's period in charge and then build from there. As long as we claim a UEFA Cup spot this season we should be alright. That is what games like tonight are vital, as Cups can save a season. But seriously, stop you anti Jol nonsense. It's boring and surely your focus should be elsewhere. If you are going to relive the Jol era concentrate on what it was he/the club was doing right, that we aren't doing now. That is where you'll find more answers to our problems.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I am no more anti-jol than you are pro Jol Joey. And I believe you know that. Whilst I accept he did things right you seem to refuse to accept he did things wrong.
If people are going to continue to opine that Jol was wrongly sacked I'm going to argue that point. He would have been wrong to be sacked if we had replaced him with many coaches but in my opinion Ramos was one of the few coaches realistically possible that made it correct. In my opinion. I think our trophy cabinet reflects this. You may argue the point but your argument would be complete hypothasis. The fact is Ramos did achieve something Jol couldn't. Anything in the future is guesswork. Would Jol have been better in 2 years time, would we have signed the players we did this year, will it all go tits up and we go down ?

I hope levy learns as he goes along but I think we differ in our views as what his mistakes are thats all.

I will try to find the newspaper article that someone posted on here, but if you put together the fact that Jol catagorically said Dawson was his player of the season and that he went with Comolli to watch and talk to Kaboul it is pretty clear that despite various soundbites Jol actually was very proactive in the signing of Kaboul. Which is actually what I suggested at the time based on the fact that Jol's first choice CB was always Dawson (after King).

I think if you are honest Joey you know I have never bullshitted on here, never claimed some piece of spurious gossip as fact. And I, unlike you with Jol, Dawson & Robinson have never put adulation before realism.

 

[Bristol Coys]

Are you 2 still bickering.
I think you should settle it once and for all with a spot of Cornish leg wrestling.