WW formation

[philip]

One of Poch's best moves IMO was when he had Dier playing as a DM-Sweeper in line with two attacking FBs (in effect wing-backs).

That allowed us to either drop into a flat back five, or if one FB was stuck upfield, for Dier to drop in and everyone shifted across to create a flat back 4.
When attacking, the system had Dier and the FBs to pushing into midfield to overwhelm the opposition.

Now we again have Dier in the middle and two extremely attacking FBs, IMO doing this again would be perfect for our squad.



-----------------------------------Lloris----------------------
-------Alderweireld/Skriniar ---Sanchez-------
Doherty----------------------Dier---------------Reguilon
-----------------PEH/GLC-------NDombele/Winks-
Son/Moura--------------Kane---------Bale/Lamela

 

[spurs9]

No, Dier doesn't have the same mobility he did back then.

 

[spids]

Højbjerg actually did this against Newcastle. Playing Dier there would be counter productive now.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Dier's ability to play sweeper and double pivot was certainly a unique strength of that side. But as mentioned, appendicitis has left him unable to do that anymore. Jose's early games where he put Dier in DM showed that painfully.

CB is where his future is now.

 

[C0YS]

I don't see it, and it goes more than just Dier not being as mobile any more. But what was Poch about and what is Jose about.

So Poch used to use Dier as a CB and DM hybrid, and he would essentially be a DM out of possession and a CB in Possession.

Now Poch loved building from the back, it's how he created attacks. Full backs are also super important for poch, as they would be out balls and a way to move the ball into the attack or build through the midfield. An extra man in defence means two things, an extra player for build up and allowing the fullbacks wider, and higher.

Now in possession, when the ball is with the goalkeeper, we looked like this under poch.

GK
CB---------- DM-----------CB
FB-------------------CM--------------------FB
AM-------AM--------AM
ST​

Now the fullbacks was our main out ball from the back three, the fullback would then try to find an AM, often Eriksen dropping deep, or into the CM. Sometimes we could also use Dembele and he could turn out of the press. We have three players to play out of the press here as well, and when play moves forward the DM also has play in front of him and can step out when he needs to. The other function of the FB was to stretch the play and create space for our attacking players who tended to play very close to each other. The idea was that inviting players onto our back three and playing wide would create a lot of space and overloads for our front four to do their magic. Once it reached our AMs the formation looked more like this

GK


CB ---------------------CB
DM
----------CM
FB--------AM---------AM----------AM---------FB
ST
​

The fullbacks would get very high often interchanging with the other attacking midfielder, and the front 4 would also fluidly interchange, making it very difficult to mark. The DM would push out from defence and into midfield to press the space in case of a counter attack or to provide and option if needed, often restarting from the back if needed. The CBs would push very high, sometimes actually over the half way line, make the pitch as small as possible.

The issue is if you stopped us playing from the back, you stopped everything and we would become slower and more ponderous. In time we moved to three at the back to help with this, which also gave greater responsibility to our CBs to move higher up the pitch with the ball, but that, in the end was also found out (not just us btw, 3 at the back was a line up everyone copied from Conte when he first came and it worked really well, until people learnt how to press onto it and now it isn't so popular) and then we tried to adapt further in a 4-2-3-1 or a diamond or 4-3-3 without the DM joining the back three and with the fullbacks playing a little deeper but that never fully worked.

Now how does Mourinho play? In a completely different way. Poch's attacks were built from the back, almost all our possession would be in our own half (and the Keeper was very important for this), once we reached the opposition half we'd have a very good chance of creating an attack, the hard work of building the attack was done before. Mourinho's CB are not there to patiently create space to move the ball forward, they are there to principally defend and often clear their lines without any attempt to play the ball forward, this rarely happened under Poch. Sometimes, Mourinho does create a back 3 out of a fullback or sometimes a midfielder, but with a different function. Namely, we would do this when the ball goes high up and principally to have the numbers in case of a counter attack, rarely, in build up from the back (maybe if the CBs are in particular need for help but). We also play with wide midfielders, wingers. Moura (though sometimes this is the other attacking fullback) and Son play much further wide under Jose who uses wide attacking players to stretch defenders rather than focusing on creating attacking overloads. In other words we don't need an extra player to construct from the back, because we now build attacks from either long balls, or (well we try) through the midfield, or at least in that area of the pitch.

This is actually just a very long way to say, we don't play that way anymore. We don't need someone to do a Dier role in that way anymore, because Dier took that position to help us build on the ball, not for 'extra cover' or anything like that, and how we play the DM role now is probably more suited to a PEH or even a Harry Winks, both players much more able to turn into space and do typical midfielder ball stuff, which is something that peak Dier never really had to do because of the specific nature of his role. We don't have a need for that anymore.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I don't see it, and it goes more than just Dier not being as mobile any more. But what was Poch about and what is Jose about.

So Poch used to use Dier as a CB and DM hybrid, and he would essentially be a DM out of possession and a CB in Possession.

Now Poch loved building from the back, it's how he created attacks. Full backs are also super important for poch, as they would be out balls and a way to move the ball into the attack or build through the midfield. An extra man in defence means two things, an extra player for build up and allowing the fullbacks wider, and higher.

Now in possession, when the ball is with the goalkeeper, we looked like this under poch.

GK
CB---------- DM-----------CB
FB-------------------CM--------------------FB
AM-------AM--------AM
ST​

Now the fullbacks was our main out ball from the back three, the fullback would then try to find an AM, often Eriksen dropping deep, or into the CM. Sometimes we could also use Dembele and he could turn out of the press. We have three players to play out of the press here as well, and when play moves forward the DM also has play in front of him and can step out when he needs to. The other function of the FB was to stretch the play and create space for our attacking players who tended to play very close to each other. The idea was that inviting players onto our back three and playing wide would create a lot of space and overloads for our front four to do their magic. Once it reached our AMs the formation looked more like this

GK


CB ---------------------CB
DM
----------CM
FB--------AM---------AM----------AM---------FB
ST
​

The fullbacks would get very high often interchanging with the other attacking midfielder, and the front 4 would also fluidly interchange, making it very difficult to mark. The DM would push out from defence and into midfield to press the space in case of a counter attack or to provide and option if needed, often restarting from the back if needed. The CBs would push very high, sometimes actually over the half way line, make the pitch as small as possible.

The issue is if you stopped us playing from the back, you stopped everything and we would become slower and more ponderous. In time we moved to three at the back to help with this, which also gave greater responsibility to our CBs to move higher up the pitch with the ball, but that, in the end was also found out (not just us btw, 3 at the back was a line up everyone copied from Conte when he first came and it worked really well, until people learnt how to press onto it and now it isn't so popular) and then we tried to adapt further in a 4-2-3-1 or a diamond or 4-3-3 without the DM joining the back three and with the fullbacks playing a little deeper but that never fully worked.

Now how does Mourinho play? In a completely different way. Poch's attacks were built from the back, almost all our possession would be in our own half (and the Keeper was very important for this), once we reached the opposition half we'd have a very good chance of creating an attack right, the hard work of building the attack was done before. Mourinho's CB are not there to patiently create space to move the ball forward, in fact they are their to principally defend and often clear their lines without any attempt to play the ball forward, this rarely happened under Poch. Sometimes, Mourinho does create a back 3 out of a fullback or sometimes a midfielder, but with a different function. Namely, we would do this when the ball goes high up and principally to have the numbers in case of a counter attack, rarely, in build up from the back (maybe if the CBs are in particular need for help but). We also play with wide midfielders, wingers. Moura (though sometimes this is the other attacking fullback) and Son play much further wide under Jose who uses wide attacking players to stretch defenders rather than focusing on creating attacking overloads. In other words we don't need an extra player to construct from the back, because we now build attacks from either long balls, or (well we try) through the midfield, or at least in that area of the pitch.

This is actually just a very long way to say, we don't play that way anymore. We don't need someone to do a Dier role in that way anymore, because Dier took that position to help us build on the ball, not for 'extra cover' or anything like that, and how we play the DM role now is probably more suited to a PEH or even a Harry Winks, both players much more able to turn into space and do typical midfielder ball stuff, which is something that peak Dier never really had to do because of the specific nature of his role. We don't have a need for that anymore.

Have to say, enjoying your work this morning.

 

[Strikeb4ck]

I just want us to go with a full on 3-4-3 seeing how well it worked vs Chelsea and with the players we have in the squad.

GK - Hugo, Hart
LWB - Reggie, Sess
LCB - Toby, Davies
CCB - Skriniar, Sanchez, (obviously assuming Skriniar gets signed)
RCB - Dier, Tanganga
RWB - Doherty, Aurier
CM1 - GLC, Ndombele, Dele
CM2 - Hojbjerg, Sissoko, Winks
LW - Son, Bergwijn
RW - Bale, Lamela, Lucas
ST - Kane, Vinicius

I mean, this is an incredibly high quality squad to have and I think the 3-4-3 fits so well.

 

[walworthyid]

No, Dier doesn't have the same mobility he did back then.

He's in his mid-twenties not mid-thirties. Unless he has a chronic injury his mobility would be the same imo.

 

[tiger666]

He's in his mid-twenties not mid-thirties. Unless he has a chronic injury his mobility would be the same imo.

He's bulked up some since then

 

[spurs9]

He's in his mid-twenties not mid-thirties. Unless he has a chronic injury his mobility would be the same imo.

His lack of mobility is due to him putting on muscle ("filling out") as many people do in there early 20s.

 

[tiger666]

His lack of mobility is due to him putting on muscle ("filling out") as many people do in there early 20s.

I started growing tits

 

[ardiles]

I started growing tits

You should change your nick to ‘tigress666’

 

[Who’s our next manager?]

I just want us to go with a full on 3-4-3 seeing how well it worked vs Chelsea and with the players we have in the squad.

GK - Hugo, Hart
LWB - Reggie, Sess
LCB - Toby, Davies
CCB - Skriniar, Sanchez, (obviously assuming Skriniar gets signed)
RCB - Dier, Tanganga
RWB - Doherty, Aurier
CM1 - GLC, Ndombele, Dele
CM2 - Hojbjerg, Sissoko, Winks
LW - Son, Bergwijn
RW - Bale, Lamela, Lucas
ST - Kane, Vinicius

I mean, this is an incredibly high quality squad to have and I think the 3-4-3 fits so well.

The team I expect to see this season is

Hart
Aurier/Tanganga...Alderweireld....Sanchez....Davies
Winks....Sissoko
Moura........Dele........ Bergwijn
Vincinius

This is our second string though.

He’ll of a squad now and great balance.

 

[C0YS]

He's in his mid-twenties not mid-thirties. Unless he has a chronic injury his mobility would be the same imo.

I mean almost every player has some kind of chronic injury, so it wouldn't be surprising if it was the case. Dier is not slow, he just seemed to lose a fair bit of nimbleness. Centre back looks like his future to me and I think it's time for us to stick with it and go for it there.

 

[N17-77]

I don't see it, and it goes more than just Dier not being as mobile any more. But what was Poch about and what is Jose about.

So Poch used to use Dier as a CB and DM hybrid, and he would essentially be a DM out of possession and a CB in Possession.

Now Poch loved building from the back, it's how he created attacks. Full backs are also super important for poch, as they would be out balls and a way to move the ball into the attack or build through the midfield. An extra man in defence means two things, an extra player for build up and allowing the fullbacks wider, and higher.

Now in possession, when the ball is with the goalkeeper, we looked like this under poch.

GK
CB---------- DM-----------CB
FB-------------------CM--------------------FB
AM-------AM--------AM
ST​

Now the fullbacks was our main out ball from the back three, the fullback would then try to find an AM, often Eriksen dropping deep, or into the CM. Sometimes we could also use Dembele and he could turn out of the press. We have three players to play out of the press here as well, and when play moves forward the DM also has play in front of him and can step out when he needs to. The other function of the FB was to stretch the play and create space for our attacking players who tended to play very close to each other. The idea was that inviting players onto our back three and playing wide would create a lot of space and overloads for our front four to do their magic. Once it reached our AMs the formation looked more like this

GK


CB ---------------------CB
DM
----------CM
FB--------AM---------AM----------AM---------FB
ST
​

The fullbacks would get very high often interchanging with the other attacking midfielder, and the front 4 would also fluidly interchange, making it very difficult to mark. The DM would push out from defence and into midfield to press the space in case of a counter attack or to provide and option if needed, often restarting from the back if needed. The CBs would push very high, sometimes actually over the half way line, make the pitch as small as possible.

The issue is if you stopped us playing from the back, you stopped everything and we would become slower and more ponderous. In time we moved to three at the back to help with this, which also gave greater responsibility to our CBs to move higher up the pitch with the ball, but that, in the end was also found out (not just us btw, 3 at the back was a line up everyone copied from Conte when he first came and it worked really well, until people learnt how to press onto it and now it isn't so popular) and then we tried to adapt further in a 4-2-3-1 or a diamond or 4-3-3 without the DM joining the back three and with the fullbacks playing a little deeper but that never fully worked.

Now how does Mourinho play? In a completely different way. Poch's attacks were built from the back, almost all our possession would be in our own half (and the Keeper was very important for this), once we reached the opposition half we'd have a very good chance of creating an attack, the hard work of building the attack was done before. Mourinho's CB are not there to patiently create space to move the ball forward, they are there to principally defend and often clear their lines without any attempt to play the ball forward, this rarely happened under Poch. Sometimes, Mourinho does create a back 3 out of a fullback or sometimes a midfielder, but with a different function. Namely, we would do this when the ball goes high up and principally to have the numbers in case of a counter attack, rarely, in build up from the back (maybe if the CBs are in particular need for help but). We also play with wide midfielders, wingers. Moura (though sometimes this is the other attacking fullback) and Son play much further wide under Jose who uses wide attacking players to stretch defenders rather than focusing on creating attacking overloads. In other words we don't need an extra player to construct from the back, because we now build attacks from either long balls, or (well we try) through the midfield, or at least in that area of the pitch.

This is actually just a very long way to say, we don't play that way anymore. We don't need someone to do a Dier role in that way anymore, because Dier took that position to help us build on the ball, not for 'extra cover' or anything like that, and how we play the DM role now is probably more suited to a PEH or even a Harry Winks, both players much more able to turn into space and do typical midfielder ball stuff, which is something that peak Dier never really had to do because of the specific nature of his role. We don't have a need for that anymore.

Superb post