Xenophobia = Tottenham Hotspur??

[Stoof]

I did just create a very articulate and well thought out post, but it didn't post, so here's a quick retort with little bits of my original post:

I'm black and regularly attend the lane. I've never felt uncomfortable in the crowd, and I don't believe the chant to be racist in any way. i think people are analysing this way too much instead of accepting it for what it is, a dig at a player who we hate, well I hate him anyway, as I do anyone associated with AFC.

When songs are sung about scousers being bindippers, thieves, dole merchants etc, no one bats an eyelid. Is it any less offensive?

I agree. It's a cultural reference towards a black player - not a reference to him being black. I think it's a distinguishable line - and a point that I think some have taken in.

The problem I have with the song, like I did with Campbell one, was that we sing it all day long, when we're not playing the club associated with the player! Surely we've got enough in our repetoire to sing at different clubs?

I think it was the Sunderland game where I noticed it was going round all the time. Didn't enjoy it really, because it just felt a bit stupid with no target audience to sing at. :-(

 

[Rocksuperstar]

I agree. It's a cultural reference towards a black player - not a reference to him being black. I think it's a distinguishable line - and a point that I think some have taken in.

The problem I have with the song, like I did with Campbell one, was that we sing it all day long, when we're not playing the club associated with the player! Surely we've got enough in our repetoire to sing at different clubs?

I think it was the Sunderland game where I noticed it was going round all the time. Didn't enjoy it really, because it just felt a bit stupid with no target audience to sing at. :-(

But the only reason it's got this kind of play is because of the fuss surrounding it :shrug:

If no-one had said anything it'd have died off within a few days as it's, in my opinion, a really shit song, racial insults aside. Now we have a section of our fans who probably only heard it because of the fuss it kicked up and, like those who sing "stand up if you hate <insert random rival club here>!" when at a completely irrelevant game, they're too stupid to understand why it's lame.

For those who do sing songs just for the sake of showing the world how much they hate a player/a club, i wonder if to them it's more about the success of our team or the failure of others.

Personally, i prefer to see the half full glass and hope that it's only a minority who sing this crap, and at least half of them don't actually know any better and are just sheeping it up like kids who want to be "in"

 

[walworthyid]

No, it's meant to take a pop at Adebayor, which I don't have a problem with at all (although why it has to be sung when we're not playing Arsenal beats me). But in doing so it carries the implication that black Africans are a backward bunch, so let's have a laugh at them. That may not have been the intention of the anonymous songsmith, but that is the effect, and denying it is just plain obtuse.

The people who are being over-sensitive are those who are trying to find ever more ridiculous explanations to excuse it, and themselves .

But surely the only people that believe that ALL Africans are backwards and wash elephants for a living are ignorant, stupid and beyond help?

You keep on repeating that the only people being over sensitive are those trying to argue that it is not overly offensive/racist in order to excuse themselves? I am one of those and I am half black, am I excusing myself? What of? Not being offended by a silly song about a gooner player?

Somebody suggested earlier that anybody caught singing it should be banned for life, is that not being overly sensitive?

If we go over the top about such things we will live in a society where free speech and thought will be dead.

Freedom is a 2 way street!

 

[dynamoSpurs]

Why complain about PC? Without PC progression, the slave trade might still exist. or not, but you get my point.

ALL Tottenham supporters should refrain from taking part in such stupid chants and we should be ashamed for the minority who sing these chants.

The point is:

WE ALL KNOW IT'S NOT THE MOST RACIST CHANT/STATEMENT IN THE WORLD, BUT THE FACT IS - IF WE ACCEPT THIS, THEN WHAT COMES NEXT??

That's the point.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think you've been saying you don't find it offensive, and I very much doubt that Adebayor does, either, at least the 'washing elephants' bit. It's too stupid to be offensive in itself. I'm hardly appalled by it. Compared to a lot of chants that we've had (Mkkid mentioned the Cyrille Regis one that was sung at the Lane in the 80s in the other thread—or was it this one? I've lost track) it's pretty innocuous.

That doesn't alter the fact that some people have been twisting logic into pretzels in order to justify themselves, and generally getting ultra-defensive about it. And if I didn't know better, I'd think Stoof had been training as a Jesuit, not a lawyer. It does, like it or not, have racist overtones, even if they're the kind you can laugh off because they're idiotic. It's the refusal to recognise or accept that which worries me, along with excusing it by claiming it's no worse than calling Southenders pikeys or singing that Scousers universally live off the dole or by flogging nicked hubcaps; it's not the same at all.

And OK, as WS says, you can argue there's a line between stuff like this that's too trivial to get worked up about and the stuff that is seriously offensive, but where do you draw that line? How high does your tolerance go?

For the record, I think an instant lifetime ban for singing it is way OTT. But I do think a warning's in order.

 

[Paxtonite]

Everyone has made reasoned and fair comment i am sure in this thread (without reading all the posts in full). And whilst any form of racism is abhorrent, can it not just be that some so and so in an attempt to make a 'counter song' to that sung by gooners praising adebayor, merely looked for words that rhymed?

What rhymes with adebayor......"oh whore will do let's use that, maybe about his mum"......"yeh but what about his dad?"...."maybe he washes elephants, cos Ivory Coast are known as the Elephants ain't they?" ..."yeh that'll work"................

All i am trying to say is that it is a football chant that is no better or no worse than we can get to hear on the terraces and which is quickly forgotten about once a stadium is emptied, and i personally don't believe that skin colour or race was the motive behind it (or really referred to in the song).

OK it has fuelled an argument in an overly PC environment that in fact makes these types of things far worse than they are and we should in any case stop singing it.

While we are at it we should stop singing about dirty northern bastards; people signing on in Liverpool; Fat bastards that eat all the pies; yiddos only buying pints for themselves etc etc.

Next we will be claiming that playing like Brazil is derogatory to the rest of footall as it implies that everyone else is crap!

We just need a little perspective i think.

Just a thought and SS57 is probably right about dealing with it by issuing a warning.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Stupid song on various levels. There is a very slight racial undertone. Lyrically It's not exactly bert bacharach. The bloke's dad is dead. It also seems to be Ok to call his mother a whore. And we have an african who plays for us.

I'm no fucking prude, but I really don't think the song does us us proud.

 

[Paxtonite]

Stupid song on various levels. There is a very slight racial undertone. Lyrically It's not exactly bert bacharach. The bloke's dad is dead. It also seems to be Ok to call his mother a whore. And we have an african who plays for us.

I'm no fucking prude, but I really don't think the song does us us proud.

Didn't realise the guy's dad is dead (which is sad) but then again i sadly doubt that this much thought or research goes into football chants.

 

[General Levy]

Everyone has made reasoned and fair comment i am sure in this thread (without reading all the posts in full). And whilst any form of racism is abhorrent, can it not just be that some so and so in an attempt to make a 'counter song' to that sung by gooners praising adebayor, merely looked for words that rhymed?

What rhymes with adebayor......"oh whore will do let's use that, maybe about his mum"......"yeh but what about his dad?"...."maybe he washes elephants, cos Ivory Coast are known as the Elephants ain't they?" ..."yeh that'll work"................

All i am trying to say is that it is a football chant that is no better or no worse than we can get to hear on the terraces and which is quickly forgotten about once a stadium is emptied, and i personally don't believe that skin colour or race was the motive behind it (or really referred to in the song).

OK it has fuelled an argument in an overly PC environment that in fact makes these types of things far worse than they are and we should in any case stop singing it.

While we are at it we should stop singing about dirty northern bastards; people signing on in Liverpool; Fat bastards that eat all the pies; yiddos only buying pints for themselves etc etc.

Next we will be claiming that playing like Brazil is derogatory to the rest of footall as it implies that everyone else is crap!

We just need a little perspective i think.

Just a thought and SS57 is probably right about dealing with it by issuing a warning.

What has the Ivory Coast got to do with Adebayour?:think:

 

[walworthyid]

I think you've been saying you don't find it offensive, and I very much doubt that Adebayor does, either, at least the 'washing elephants' bit. It's too stupid to be offensive in itself. I'm hardly appalled by it. Compared to a lot of chants that we've had (Mkkid mentioned the Cyrille Regis one that was sung at the Lane in the 80s in the other thread—or was it this one? I've lost track) it's pretty innocuous.

That doesn't alter the fact that some people have been twisting logic into pretzels in order to justify themselves, and generally getting ultra-defensive about it. And if I didn't know better, I'd think Stoof had been training as a Jesuit, not a lawyer. It does, like it or not, have racist overtones, even if they're the kind you can laugh off because they're idiotic. It's the refusal to recognise or accept that which worries me, along with excusing it by claiming it's no worse than calling Southenders pikeys or singing that Scousers universally live off the dole or by flogging nicked hubcaps; it's not the same at all.

And OK, as WS says, you can argue there's a line between stuff like this that's too trivial to get worked up about and the stuff that is seriously offensive, but where do you draw that line? How high does your tolerance go?

For the record, I think an instant lifetime ban for singing it is way OTT. But I do think a warning's in order.

Ironically enough Cyrille is my cousin! I remember being teased by the family after the 87' cup final because nI was the only yid! I have said on this forum before how I was at a the Nottingham derby (at the County Ground) with Cyrille's younger brother Dave in the mid-90's when Collymore was getting the worst racist abuse I have ever heard in a public place. He had been giving the 2 finger salute to the county fans all afternoon and when he scored at their end he really gave some back. At the same time Dave and I were sitting among them being treated like celebs!

As I have said I do not suggest that we condone such behaviour, far from it, but it does need to be kept in context.

My earlier posts were actually directed at those who seem to feel that if we allow football chanting we will suddenly descend into anti-semitism on a par with 30's Germany. It should not be seen as a reflection on society in general but more as a reflection of human nature in general.

Clamp down by all means but don't make it more than it is, silly chanting that is designed to wind players and fans up!

 

[rich75]

I have to disagree SS57.

You say the difference is one of degree not of kind but it must always be by degree, everything can be pigeon holed into a catagory somewhere but you cannot carry that on adinfinitum.

Somewhere you have to draw the line otherwise any disagreement with an african can be put down to your streotypical view of him being beneath you and so not fit for you to agree with and any correction of an Irishman is indicative of your contempt for his ignorance.

Stereotypically childish connections with elephants are, as I said, infantile but not enough to be racist, a view may be infantile and even wrong but that don't make it racist.

You say washing elephants is a backward simple thing, is it simple and backward? I wouldn't know and wouldn't begin to assume, now I know you aren't Racist but do you see how easy and silly it is.

Even if we accept your point that it betrays and attitude towards Africans and therefore is racist, my point is that it is so childish and laughable that it isn't offensive and by making such a fuss you reduce the enormity of truly offensive racist actions.
There has to be a limit at which it is unreasonable for a man to become offended.

the opposing side to that argument is that if you let the small things past then the big ones find it easier to germinate. If you come down on hard on all forms of racism no matter how small they may appear to be then you make it clear that no form of racism should be tolerated

 

[walworthyid]

the opposing side to that argument is that if you let the small things past then the big ones find it easier to germinate. If you come down on hard on all forms of racism no matter how small they may appear to be then you make it clear that no form of racism should be tolerated

Great idea, would you like to be the person who decides what is racist and what is not?

 

[rich75]

Great idea, would you like to be the person who decides what is racist and what is not?

I don't have to be, the club has already decided it is racist, and thats pretty much the end of it really, if you want to chant it at the ground you run the risk of being chucked out and banned

 

[jondesouza]

Great idea, would you like to be the person who decides what is racist and what is not?

I'll consider doing it but first of all I need to know what the pay is and how much annual leave I'd get.

 

[walworthyid]

I don't have to be, the club has already decided it is racist, and thats pretty much the end of it really, if you want to chant it at the ground you run the risk of being chucked out and banned

You said ALL forms of racism! I was speaking generally.

Besides, I would love to see them ban 5 or 10 thousand fans!

 

[rich75]

You said ALL forms of racism! I was speaking generally.

Besides, I would love to see them ban 5 or 10 thousand fans!

I meant all forms as in "Small" or "big", though personally I find it hard to distinguish between a bit racist and a lot racist, if its racist its racist. It's like journos who write things like " she fell over on the hard pavement".. I mean what the hell is that?, of course the pavements hard, its a fucking pavement for christs sake..or "he cut himself with a sharp knife".. oh really? I thought he'd sliced his arm off with a really blunt knife and a lot of determination

 

[Mullers]

I did just create a very articulate and well thought out post, but it didn't post, so here's a quick retort with little bits of my original post:

I'm black and regularly attend the lane. I've never felt uncomfortable in the crowd, and I don't believe the chant to be racist in any way. i think people are analysing this way too much instead of accepting it for what it is, a dig at a player who we hate, well I hate him anyway, as I do anyone associated with AFC.

When songs are sung about scousers being bindippers, thieves, dole merchants etc, no one bats an eyelid. Is it any less offensive?

But surely the only people that believe that ALL Africans are backwards and wash elephants for a living are ignorant, stupid and beyond help?

You keep on repeating that the only people being over sensitive are those trying to argue that it is not overly offensive/racist in order to excuse themselves? I am one of those and I am half black, am I excusing myself? What of? Not being offended by a silly song about a gooner player?

Somebody suggested earlier that anybody caught singing it should be banned for life, is that not being overly sensitive?

If we go over the top about such things we will live in a society where free speech and thought will be dead.

Freedom is a 2 way street!

Ok so you two are black and not offended what is that meant to prove? That no black, white or any other person should find it offensive just because you don't? A song about scousers/ fat old people etc is not the same as a song with racist overtones.

unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who believe black people aren't as intelligent as white people and believe that black Africans in particular are stupid. Books like the Bell Curve are best sellers trying to put forward that arguement in a legitimate, academic and subtle way to the masses.

The punishment is excessive and its not the most racist chant by far but it is racist and certainly offends, there have been a number of good arguments put forward to show how it is racist and the club agrees that it is a racist chant. If people are dumb enough to continue chanting the song even though they've be warned then serves them right.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Stupid song on various levels. There is a very slight racial undertone. Lyrically It's not exactly bert bacharach. The bloke's dad is dead. It also seems to be Ok to call his mother a whore. And we have an african who plays for us.

I'm no fucking prude, but I really don't think the song does us us proud.

Well put - can't rep you apparently though

 

[DOX]

Stupid song on various levels. There is a very slight racial undertone. Lyrically It's not exactly bert bacharach. The bloke's dad is dead. It also seems to be Ok to call his mother a whore. And we have an african who plays for us.

I'm no fucking prude, but I really don't think the song does us us proud.

Must agree, Mr. Bus.

 

[worcestersauce]

Good News everybody.

Never heard it once at the game last night so let's hope that's the end of it.