Yids chants

[StartingPrice]

The thing that concerns me about this witch-hunt is that this Herbert (pun intended) seems to have jumped on the rambles of Chelsea fan David Baddiel (who seemed more concerned by Spurs fans, with their history of support and integration with the Jewish community going back to Mr Mosley and the Black Shirts and beyond, than he did with Chelsea fans making hissing sounds and hateful songs about the Holocaust), rather than actually examining the issue for himself.

I could be wrong, maybe he has - but it doesn't come across that way. There have been several lengthy and informative debates on this subject on this forum. Maybe we could send him transcripts.

And, as others have said, and I always conclude on here, the day when the majority of Jewish people, and not just a couple who are, surprise surprise, Goons or Chavs, ask that the chants be dropped, as long as it is a minor point as part of a much much much bigger points focusing on such clubs as those self-same Chavs and their hateful chants and hissing*, I will accept it.

*Someone posted a vid of a big group of Chavs in a tube station indulging in their anti-semitic chants, a while back, perhaps someone could send this Herbert this, and ask why he is focusing on Spurs fans.

 

[cozzo]

I'm saying that I am defending the right of us to call ourselves Yids as a supporting group, even if we are not Jewish. If I thought generally Jewish people were offended in any way by our use of that term then I would change my view. I do not believe it to be used in an offensive context, in fact I believe it to be the opposite. I hope that makes sense.

How could Jewish people convince you that they are offended?

 

[tototoner]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...t-claims-Peter-Herbert.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Peter Herbert has hit back at Tottenham as the row over the use of the term 'Yid' rumbles on.

Herbert, chairman of the Society of Black Lawyers, originally said that if matchday chants including the word continue, he would ask police to bring a prosecution for racism.

The club responded with a strong defence of their supporters’ use of the word but Herbert has blasted back, accusing the supporters of casual racism.

‘The argument sounds like it is 40 years old,’ he said. ‘I’m deeply saddened that a football club that represents such a diverse area has taken such a view. I don’t want to have to take my children to a football match and expect to hear anti-Semitic chants.

‘Tottenham Hotspur Football Club obviously just don’t get it. It’s almost like saying if a woman refers to another woman in a derogatory fashion then it is OK.’

Herbert added: ‘What we are trying to do is change a culture. What we are saying to Tottenham is,
“Maybe this was OK 50 years ago — but it isn’t now”.

‘Even if it comes from Tottenham supporters, it remains casual racism. We understand it is a difficult, and for some an uncomfortable, stance to take, but we feel it is the right stance.’

Tottenham have issued an impassioned defence of their fans’ right to use the term ‘Yid’ in their matchday chants.

Herbert had earlier described the north London club’s attitude as being ‘40 years out of date’.

The society claim such chants — either by opposition fans or Spurs supporters themselves — are anti-Semitic and unacceptable in contemporary society.

As part of a 10-point plan to tackle racism in football, they are threatening to report to the police any anti-Semitic chants heard at White Hart Lane unless Tottenham and the FA agree to take action.

Spurs are steeped in Jewish tradition and large sections of their support refer to themselves as ‘Yids’ in matchday songs.

Herbert also says that ‘hissing’ noises made by away fans at White Hart Lane — a reference to the gas
chambers in the Holocaust — are equally intolerable and will also provoke a complaint from his organisation.

Herbert told Sportsmail: 'In discussions with members of the Jewish community, we were made aware that this practice is still continuing and it has to come to an end.

'If neither Tottenham FC nor the FA are willing to take a stand then SBL will report the matter to the Metropolitan Police Service for investigation and, if necessary, prosecution.

'The report will be made if this behaviour does not cease by 20 November. We will have monitors in attendance to observe what occurs.'

But Tottenham said in a statement: ‘The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting.

'Our guiding principle in respect of the “Y-word” is based on the point of law itself — the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used, i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence.

'This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date. Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it as a chant among themselves.

‘The club believes that real anti-Semitic abuse such as hissing to simulate the noise of gas chambers is the real evil and the real offence.

‘We believe this is the area that requires a determined effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate.’

Former Spurs stars Gary Lineker and Ledley King have previously condemned the mimicking of the gas chambers by away supporters.

Tottenham have traditionally been well supported by members of the Jewish community. Many fans do not consider references to their faith as offensive. Others,such as comedian David Baddiel, however, do.

Last year Baddiel launched a campaign, supported by Lineker, to stamp out use of the word 'yid' in football chants which mock Jewish and Tottenham supporters.

The Society of Black Lawyers is involved in talks to create a Black Players’ Association with some
professionals, claiming the football authorities are not doing enough to represent them or to tackle racism in the sport.

The PFA recently introduced its own six-point action plan but the society says this will prove 'ineffective'.
Spurs supporters will be put under the microscope more than ever during the Europa League visit of Maribor.

But Tottenham manager Andre Villas-Boas is focusing on whether to field a double-pronged strikeforce of Jermain Defoe and Emmanuel Adebayor against the Slovenian champions.

England striker Defoe has been Tottenham’s No 1 striker this season, while Adebayor has been forced to spend most of the season on the bench.

Villas-Boas said: ‘We have had thoughts, between the technical staff, about playing them both — about changing our structure.

‘We have had success in the past with the system that we are playing. We certainly have played 4-4-2 in some games when Ade has come on. But whether the right time is tomorrow I am not sure.’

SUPPORTER COMMENT: SORRY BUT THE Y-WORD BELONGS TO US

As a youngster growing up supporting Spurs, it took me some time to realise the word 'yid' was an offensive racial slur. I'd never heard it used in a derogatory sense at White Hart Lane, only ever as a collective term - yid army - and as a positive identifier.

If a player was good, he was a yiddo.

But its significance soon became apparent. Though far from the abhorrent gas chamber hissing of some away fans, it's still sensitive. Context is important, though, and its reclamation as a positive term at the ground should not be ignored.

The Society of Black lawyers says use of the word yid, including the tone adopted by Spurs fans, amounts to casual racism. Perhaps they have a point. Perhaps simply substituting the word would be the answer. But Spurs fans are unlikely to take kindly at being told what to do by an external body, especially as it is largely considered a positive, rather than offensive, chant.

David Baddiel tried to stamp out its use by Tottenham supporters but, despite his own Jewish faith, the views of a Chelsea fan were never likely to be accepted by the Spurs majority.
If the word yid really is to be kicked out of White Hart Lane, it would need concerns to be raised from within the Spurs-supporting community, rather than outside pressures.

​

Andrew Magee, life-long Spurs supporter​

 

[Wirral Spurs]

How could Jewish people convince you that they are offended?

Good question, if Jewish Community leaders condemned it and it seemed generally supported by the Jewish population then I guess I would be convinced.

 

[sweyid]

Herbert also says that ‘hissing’ noises made by away fans at White Hart Lane — a reference to the gas
chambers in the Holocaust — are equally intolerable and will also provoke a complaint from his organisation.

Equally intolerable?! Deluded twat.

Spurs fans refering to themselves as yids - passion and pride.

Opposing fans hissing - blatantly racist neanderthal behavior.

If Herbert can't spot the difference he's (excuse me Herbie) a fucking idiot.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

All new to me.

Im a Spurs fan not a Yiddo.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I have mocked in this thread, but on a serious note I genuinely don't see how saying 'Yid Army' in the context that it is done at Spurs is anti-Semitic.

I understand that the term itself can be considered offensive if used in a derogatory way, but that is simply not the case with Spurs fans. It was a term used against Spurs fans in a derogatory way, Spurs fans reclaimed it and chanted it themselves as a badge of honour...regardless of their actual religious/racial background.

If a group of white guys were beating up a black guy and shouting 'nigger' at him, and another group came up, dispersed the racist group and started chanting 'nigger army' as a sign of support for the guy then that, to me, isn't racist. It's using a racist word but in a non-racist way.

As lots of people have said on here, context is everything. The FA's 'zero tolerance' approach to racism is slightly misguided in that they've effectively said that any use of any racial language is banned. So you should technically be banned for walking up to a black player and saying, "you are black aren't you?" Now obviously as soon as you start using that wording abusively or together with other abusive language (as Suarez and Terry appear to have done) then yes that should be punished...but it's definitely about the context.

This quote from Herbert is absolutely mind-boggling:

Tottenham Hotspur Football Club obviously just don’t get it. It’s almost like saying if a woman refers to another woman in a derogatory fashion then it is OK.’

It is completely misunderstanding the use of the word at Spurs. It's nothing like a woman referring to another woman in a derogatory fashion. It's actually like a woman saying to another woman who has been a victim of sexism, "Go get 'em bitch."

He is clearly crusading for something that is generally right...but in this instance I genuinely believe that he couldn't be getting it more wrong.

 

[Wiener]

SBL's 10-point plan must be better than the PFA 6-point plan.

Reminds me of Spinal Tap "These go to 11" "It's one louder"



Surely it's time for "This is Herbert"

 

[Misfit]

On the make lawyer. He'll stand for parliament soon enough.

 

[parklane1]

On the make lawyer. He'll stand for parliament soon enough.

And start the Society of Black Politicians"

 

[Maske2g]

This is the biggest load of bollocks ever, and is a continuing annoyance to be. It's born because that prick Baddiel thinks the word "Yid" was invented on opposition terraces.

Long before association football, the word "Yid", was an endearing term, meaning "mate", used by yiddish speaking Jew's.

My dad often refers to another Jew as "a Yiddisher boy"

Even Wikipedia can get that much right....

 

[Nocando]

Are they also going to sue 99% of American rappers too?

 

[Hoopspur]

I did post a little earlier that I encouraged my kids not to sing it, because I felt it could be borderline. Anyway this is on Newsnow giving a couple of opinions.

http://www.totallyjewish.com/football/pro_soccer/c-18948/spurs-are-told-to-end-yid-chants/?

Dan Wise, a Spurs season ticket holder of 21 years, opposes the SBL's proposal. He told the Jewish News: "It's sung purely in support of the team - I don't see it as offensive to our religion."

However, Maccabi GB Chief Executive Martin Berliner said: "Any action that helps eradicate anti-Semitism from the football terraces is welcomed by Maccabi GB and the Community Security Trust who have campaigned for over a decade to rid the game this issue".

Now I'm not Jewish myself, but the second of these quote suggests that we should stop using this term. To be beaten with a big stick though is not the way to go, but as others have said to educate from within imo.

 

[Syn_13]

It's all about context and the reason behind what you're saying. Rappers saying 'n***er' and Spurs fans saying 'Yids' has a completely different context to a bloke monkey chanting a black guy.

There's no intention of malice in the former unlike the latter. Without the irony attached to it I can understand why people would be offended. Like many things, this issue is not black and white enough to say "this word equals racist at all times regardless of context".

 

[domw001]

I dont know about the rest of you, but I feel a "90-minutes of Yid Army" might be winging its way to The Lane tonight.

Solidarity Bruders!

 

[Nocando]

I did post a little earlier that I encouraged my kids not to sing it, because I felt it could be borderline. Anyway this is on Newsnow giving a couple of opinions.

http://www.totallyjewish.com/football/pro_soccer/c-18948/spurs-are-told-to-end-yid-chants/?

Dan Wise, a Spurs season ticket holder of 21 years, opposes the SBL's proposal. He told the Jewish News: "It's sung purely in support of the team - I don't see it as offensive to our religion."

However, Maccabi GB Chief Executive Martin Berliner said: "Any action that helps eradicate anti-Semitism from the football terraces is welcomed by Maccabi GB and the Community Security Trust who have campaigned for over a decade to rid the game this issue".

Now I'm not Jewish myself, but the second of these quote suggests that we should stop using this term. To be beaten with a big stick though is not the way to go, but as others have said to educate from within imo.

People (the media, politicians) still struggle with the biggest factor re: racism anti semitism and that is context. Context context context context (even our laws allude to this as the defining factor). How many times do we need to repeat this word before it sinks in?

 

[Nocando]

It's all about context and the reason behind what you're saying. Rappers saying 'n***er' and Spurs fans saying 'Yids' has a completely different context to a bloke monkey chanting a black guy.

There's no intention of malice in the former unlike the latter. Without the irony attached to it I can understand why people would be offended. Like many things, this issue is not black and white enough to say "this word equals racist at all times regardless of context".

Damn this is the second time in this thread that I've repeated someone else's argument.

 

[beats1]

A part of me feels like going to the first game after the November the 20th and Shout Yid Army before, funny how for years we have had anti Semitic chants and now we are getting done for racisms

He said things have changed in the last 50 years yet its not far from when during the civil rights movement peaceful campaigners were getting arrested for not taking this shit and abuse at them

 

[Jaispurs]

To the society of black lawyers.

Being a Jewish man means something to me that you should understand.

Wherever I have gone in my life it has come up and ensured that through no fault of my own that I am different from the rest. I have been spat at, ridiculed, had Nazi salutes and been hissed at mocking the gas chambers. Who are you to tell me what I can say or can't say about being proud of my Jewish heritage.

I support Tottenham Hotspur because it is a traditionally Jewish club. There is no racism at Spurs due to the fans pulling together to fight the racist supporters of other clubs who scream anti semitic abuse at me and my fellow supporters.

Who are you to stop me shouting vitriolic chants from the terraces akin to you can't hurt me if I shout it myself.

I will be at White Hart Lane tonight and every game moving forward shouting Yid Army and yidio and yids.

Arrest me if you want you will be guilty of wasting police time. Before you pick on me sort your own house out with fellow black citizen calling each other the N word.

I am a yid, a hook nose, a red sea pedestrian and proud.

 

[KentuckyYid]

Tottenham have lost this argument already by referring to it as the Y word. Why would that term be used at all if there wasn't any self doubt.

I've said it before but we need senior Jewish leaders, and black Tottenham ambassadors to speak up on behalf of Tottenham and proper go on the attack of Herbert. They need to really cut him down to size.

The real target in this melee is not supporting Jewish feelings, but in fact quite the opposite. The removal of the Star of David flag and the positive support of Israel that implies is the real target. It all starts with removing the yiddish chants. Without the chants the flag becomes obsolete too.

In the meantime I recommend Tottenham fans trademark a new word 'Yit'. If the Jew hating leftists win this round we could replace yid army with yit army and keep the flags.

And no I'm not Jewish myself. I can see through all the noise of this BS. While you're all arguing over rappers using the n word you're missing the real points...