Yids chants

[Spurrific]

Because it is dumb to believe that anybody can be born of a certain religion. Sure, they can have views imposed upon them by their parents and society, but people are born human, not religious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism

 

[bigturnip]

A quote from your article:

A Jewish identity is automatically bestowed on babies of Jewish mothers (according to Orthodox and Conservative Judaism) and of Jewish mothers or fathers (according to Reform Judaism). This Jewish identity stays with them throughout life even if they don't actively practice Judaism

"Bestowed upon" does not mean "born as". Just because some crackpot religion (and this isn't anti-jewish, I think all religions are crackpot) has decided to bestow an identity on a baby does not make it factually correct.

 

[Mattspur]

Fair enough. I think the main point is that there is no single Jewish genetic trait as people from completely different genetic backgrounds can be born into Jewish families - though obviously there are clear Jewish visual characteristics in some people.

I never said there was.

 

[Spurger King]

"Bestowed upon" does not mean "born as". Just because some crackpot religion (and this isn't anti-jewish, I think all religions are crackpot) has decided to bestow an identity on a baby does not make it factually correct.

It's true. I'm 1/8th Australian but I don't consider myself to be a convict.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

You might be brought up as a Jew, but not born as one and you are free to renounce it at any time you choose, you can't renounce being black or disabled.

I'm sorry but you are wrong, ignoring the issue of whether Judaism considers you to be Jewish by birth the history of anti-semitism is that anti-semites persecute Jews regardless of whether they renounce their religion. The most obvious proof of this was the Nazis who treated as Jewish anyone with at least 1 Jewish grandparent, didn't matter if they baptised themselves or said they were atheists. So your original statement is wrong because the people who hate won't allow a born Jew to no longer be a Jew in just the same way as a person can't change their skin colour.

 

[bigturnip]

Go educate yourself.

I like to educate myself in science and reason, not in fairy tales.

If you can honestly tell me that you believe these people are of the same race or ethnicity I will go away and educate myself on Judaism, until then I will continue to hold my view that Judaism is a religion:

 

[bigturnip]

I'm sorry but you are wrong, ignoring the issue of whether Judaism considers you to be Jewish by birth the history of anti-semitism is that anti-semites persecute Jews regardless of whether they renounce their religion. The most obvious proof of this was the Nazis who treated as Jewish anyone with at least 1 Jewish grandparent, didn't matter if they baptised themselves or said they were atheists. So your original statement is wrong because the people who hate won't allow a born Jew to no longer be a Jew in just the same way as a person can't change their skin colour.

Just because there are some idiots out there who persecute people based on a person's religion or even the religion of their grandparents doesn't make them correct. Also, the vast majority of Semites are not Jewish.

 

[Skye Sauces]

I suspect that Mr Peter Herbert and his Society of Black Lawyers have their own agenda in stirring things up. Raising your own profile by whatever means, particularly at a time when there are calls for 'Black' players to be represented separately is an astute move.

Their 10 point plan published before their meeting tomorrow with the FA, PFA, Premier League and 'Kick It Out' trustees includes;

a minimum six to nine-month ban for racial abuse, rising to a five-year ban for a third offence

the creation of representative associations for black players, managers and coaches

a 20% quota at all levels of the FA, PFA, clubs as well as football agents and referees

I dare say the Society of Black Lawyers would ensure it is in the forefront should any legal representation be required in the courts or FA, plus the representation of the 1 in 5 quota they're demanding at all levels of the FA, PFA, Clubs, Agents and Referees.
2009 Census figures state that 12.5% of the population is non-white and only 2.9% is Black or Black-British, whereas 6% is Asian or Asian-British so it'll be interesting to see exactely how 'representative' of the population they think football should be!

To a cynic this would seem to be a potential 'nice little earner'.

The debate over the use of the 'Y' word goes back at least six years, it's nothing new.

 

[jj87]

bigturnip - As a non-believing secular person of Jewish background, I would kindly remind you that it is not your place to tell someone how they should define themselves. Seeking to find some biological 'truth' to 'race/ethnicity' in any context is bound to fail - they are all identities and as such, social constructs. If one seeks to define themselves as 'born Jewish' according to centuries of tradition, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

 

[Mattspur]

I like to educate myself in science and reason, not in fairy tales.

If you can honestly tell me that you believe these people are of the same race or ethnicity I will go away and educate myself on Judaism, until then I will continue to hold my view that Judaism is a religion:

I don't care if you think they are fairy tales or not. I am Jewish but I don't practise and am not what you would call a believer.

My whole discussion with you came about because you said that Jews are not born as Jews and I said we are. For some reason you have decided to persist with his view even though a quick search would show you that you are wrong.

You seem to be argumentative just for the sake of it and to be honest, a bit of a prat.

 

[MattyP]

If anyone wants to email Peter Herbert, here's his details

http://www.peterherbert.net/contact.html#

 

[Teemu]

No, you are born a Jew. End of.

Well, no, you are born a Jew only in the eyes of Jews. My maternal greatgrandmother died in a concentration camp so I guess according to the rule I'm Jewish but the only person who's ever tried to claim that is my great aunt whose (Jewish) family fled Lithuania to France as a child to escape persecution. Unsurprisingly, she's quite in to the whole Judaism thing. No one else cares.

 

[Mattspur]

Well, no, you are born a Jew only in the eyes of Jews. My maternal greatgrandmother died in a concentration camp so I guess according to the rule I'm Jewish but the only person who's ever tried to claim that is my great aunt whose (Jewish) family fled Lithuania to France as a child to escape persecution. Unsurprisingly, she's quite in to the whole Judaism thing. No one else cares.

I don't care either, but as you say, in the eyes of Jews you are Jewish. Mazel Tov.

 

[bigturnip]

I don't care if you think they are fairy tales or not. I am Jewish but I don't practise and am not what you would call a believer.

My whole discussion with you came about because you said that Jews are not born as Jews and I said we are. For some reason you have decided to persist with his view even though a quick search would show you that you are wrong.

You seem to be argumentative just for the sake of it and to be honest, a bit of a prat.

I think you need to reread this thread as your memory of how this discussion started seems to be somewhat hazy. If you honestly believe that you have to be born a Jew and be of a certain race or ethnicity to be a Jew then I would suggest you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Whether this is just a misplaced notion or a deeper bigotry I don't know, but I will certainly not be subscribing to the doctrine that only a certain race or ethnic group can call themselves Jewish.

 

[Spurger King]

If anyone wants to email Peter Herbert, here's his details

http://www.peterherbert.net/contact.html#

Does that say 'conacting Peter Herbert' on his website?

Says it all really.

 

[Mattspur]

Ohhh is that a mobile number?

07973 794946

 

[kevinfish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20244204

Has this been posted yet? When I read it I actually felt so pissed off. Why don't they sort out some proper racists instead of poking around looking for 'trouble' and I use that term very loosely.

 

[Spurrific]

How has this Herbert guy managed to get himself to the level of a barrister? He is clearly a fucking moron.

 

[Spurger King]

How has this Herbert guy managed to get himself to the level of a barrister? He is clearly a fucking moron.

He must have good conacts.

 

[Misfit]

I'm not Jewish but I have sung that word with pride often in the past. Not because it represents anything special to me. The opposite in fact. It has bonded people of all religious background and races for as long as I've been following Spurs. We are all "Yids".

If Jews are offended by it then that is their right and if the decision is made in the future to discontinue its use then they'll get no argument from me but in this case I really feel that instead of being a step forward to inclusiveness it would actually be yet another case of humans differentiating themselves. In the context of Spurs it would only serve to reinforce - in the big old universe of ours - what should ultimately be trivial differences.