*** DERBY v SPURS *** Official Match Thread

[yanno]

I thought Ramos made a rare mistake today. I won't bash Boateng, but he was the wrong player imo, to partner a newly resurgent Jenas, it's no surprise when we saw the entirely more pragmatic and disciplined O'Hara take the field that the team and the front five (in which I include JJ) begin to cause real problems. Of course Berbatov had a lot to do with it too, but I think it was the over all balance which improved as much as anything.

I agree. I wrote before kick off that I didn't see Prince as a natural partner for JJ in CM. I too think it was a case of Ramos giving KPB a chance, but he sure didn't take it.

On the plus side, I think we now have two players in Teemu and O'Hara who can play the disciplined holding CM role. And both can dish it out a bit to show the opposition they can't take physical liberties with us. Once O'Hara had put his foot in a couple of times, Derby backed off and we could outplay them through good football.

I'd still want to sign Lucho for the CM mix, but Tainio and O'Hara's recent form means I don't think we desperately need a Poulsen type any more.

 

[Legend10]

I agree. I wrote before kick off that I didn't see Prince as a natural partner for JJ in CM. I too think it was a case of Ramos giving KPB a chance, but he sure didn't take it.

On the plus side, I think we now have two players in Teemu and O'Hara who can play the disciplined holding CM role. And both can dish it out a bit to show the opposition they can't take physical liberties with us. Once O'Hara had put his foot in a couple of times, Derby backed off and we could outplay them through good football.

I'd still want to sign Lucho for the CM mix, but Tainio and O'Hara's recent form means I don't think we desperately need a Poulsen type any more.

And now Zokora is back.

O'Hara's emergence and the Hudds form in his absence makes the midfield selections very interesting.

Asuming that JJ is a nailed on starter when fit and required we are left with...

Zokora, Huud, TT, KPB & O'Hara effectively fighting for 1 starting place although we may see quite alot of Hudd at CB.

 

[KeaneIsKeane]

I forgot what watching Zokora in a CM position is like. Could be scary.

 

[yanno]

Asuming that JJ is a nailed on starter when fit and required we are left with...

Zokora, Huud, TT, KPB & O'Hara effectively fighting for 1 starting place although we may see quite alot of Hudd at CB.

I'll be pretty surprized if we see a lot of Zokora in CM alongside JJ. For the CC Final, I think we need a genuine holding C/DM just as we did against the Goons, and Teemu has to be first choice to partner JJ. If Tainio's unfit (always a fair bet), then personally I'd play either O'Hara or the Hud there (assuming King and Woodgate are fit at CB).

Before the ANC, I would have expected to see more of Zokora as a defender between now and June. But with the signings of Hutton, Woodgate, Gilberto & Gunter, the Hud's emergence as a CB, and Kaboul's decent performance at Derby, there may be even more competition in defence than in midfield. So, maybe Juande will play Zokora in CM again. I can't believe he sees Zokora as anything more than a deep squad player in midfield though, and I'm not sure Zokora will put up with being a long way down the pecking order.

 

[Legend10]

I'll be pretty surprized if we see a lot of Zokora in CM alongside JJ. For the CC Final, I think we need a genuine holding C/DM just as we did against the Goons, and Teemu has to be first choice to partner JJ. If Tainio's unfit (always a fair bet), then personally I'd play either O'Hara or the Hud there (assuming King and Woodgate are fit at CB).

Before the ANC, I would have expected to see more of Zokora as a defender between now and June. But with the signings of Hutton, Woodgate, Gilberto & Gunter, the Hud's emergence as a CB, and Kaboul's decent performance at Derby, there may be even more competition in defence than in midfield. So, maybe Juande will play Zokora in CM again. I can't believe he sees Zokora as anything more than a deep squad player in midfield though, and I'm not sure Zokora will put up with being a long way down the pecking order.

Our CC final line-up is going to be very interesting.

Will the Chavs go with 3 in midfield or will they go with Drogba & Anelka up front? I'm not to sure but I think that they will go with 3 central players with Drogba up and Cole left with Anelka right at the expense of SWP. If they do do this can and will Ramos expect 2 central midfield players to cope? It would seem unlikely to me that he would risk the Hudd in such circumstances?

I think that if the Chavs do go with the 3 we will go with a lop sided side and play JJ & TT/O'Hara in the middle and bring Steed right in to join them and leave our left midfield position more or less vacant.

I think whoever plays LB might just be our most important player in this game.

 

[yanno]

Will the Chavs go with 3 in midfield or will they go with Drogba & Anelka up front? I'm not to sure but I think that they will go with 3 central players with Drogba up and Cole left with Anelka right at the expense of SWP. If they do do this can and will Ramos expect 2 central midfield players to cope? It would seem unlikely to me that he would risk the Hudd in such circumstances?

I think that if the Chavs do go with the 3 we will go with a lop sided side and play JJ & TT/O'Hara in the middle and bring Steed right in to join them and leave our left midfield position more or less vacant.

I think whoever plays LB might just be our most important player in this game.

Like you, I suspect they'll play Drogba and Anelka, but probably in their 4-3-3 formation rather than a 4-4-2. Which almost certainly means Anelka starting wide (instead of SWP), and looking to drift in behind. So, as you say, Malbranque is likely to come inside to help out the CM 2, and LB becomes crucial.

Our LB wildcard is Gilberto. Will he be fit? How good is he defensively?

Otherwise, based on his recent performances, Chimbo matches up pretty well against Anelka. He's certainly a good enough athlete to do the job. And if he keeps his concentration levels up, he's good enough defensively. As you suggest, our LB's primary role against Chelski will be defensive, so the fact that Chimbo offers us little going forwards from LB isn't really a problem.

 

[KeaneIsKeane]

Doubt Gilberto will be thrown into this game, but we're going to need someone who's disciplined at LB like you say. Chimbonda has been playing well there, but we all know he's prone to wander, not sure if the whole him being on the left is the reason he hasn't wandered recently or not. I can't see Ramos starting Lee if Gilberto and Chimbonda are available though. I imagine their three CMs will be Lampard, Ballack, Essien. Which is good for us I think, its better than seeing Mikel, Ballack, Essien. Though I hope I don't live to regret typing that.

 

[Legend10]

I'm going to post a hunch and suggest if everybody is fit and available that our starting line up will be this....


...............................Cerny..............................

Hutton...........Woodgate.....King...........Chimbonda

............................TT/Hudd............................

.....................JJ...................Steed..................

Lenon.......................................................Keane

.............................Berbatov..............................


I honestlty think we are going to see something different from Ramos, I believe that he thinks we need to match up in midfield.

 

[yanno]

I honestlty think we are going to see something different from Ramos, I believe that he thinks we need to match up in midfield.

I see the logic of your team, but I've never seen the point of Keano at ALM. It was Jol's standard substitution: Defoe/Bent on for Steed, and stick Keano out wide - where he was always hopeless. Whereas when Ramos has played with three strikers, he's usually dropped Berba into the hole and played the other two centrally, right up top.

Lennon at pace can skin Cashley or Bridge. But the real weak link in Chelski's defence is Belletti. He's genuinely poor defensively. There was one CL game I watched where he'd completely lost the plot. Plus he's cynical enough to foul a player that goes past him, so I'd want one of our players to run at him over and again. Maybe Robbie could do the job, but as above, I've never seen him be effective in that wide left position.

 

[sloth]

I think DZ will be number one choice to partner JJ. Not sure he's the right choice mind you, but I think he will be.

 

[yanno]

I think DZ will be number one choice to partner JJ. Not sure he's the right choice mind you, but I think he will be.

If he's not the right choice, why would he be Juande's choice? :wink:

 

[sloth]

If he's not the right choice, why would he be Juande's choice? :wink:

Good point :grin:

But to clarify, I'm a big fan of DZs, but he's sometimes too keen to come forward when what is required is for him to sit and that doersn't bring the best out of JJ. If ramos can get him playing disciplined then he's by far the best option. I reckon Ramos really rates him and will think he get get DZ to play DM properly. I hope he can because i think with the players we have there now we've got a midfield that can potentially rival any in the PL.

 

[haxman]

I hope he can because i think with the players we have there now we've got a midfield that can potentially rival any in the PL.

Can't say I agree with this, imo our midfield is our weakest area, we're nowhere near as strong as Man Utd's or for that matter Chelsea's midfield, this is the one area I think Chelsea could overpower us in the cup final, which will put a lot of pressure on our defence.

Potentially yes, but right now, no.

 

[sloth]

Can't say I agree with this, imo our midfield is our weakest area, we're nowhere near as strong as Man Utd's or for that matter Chelsea's midfield, this is the one area I think Chelsea could overpower us in the cup final, which will put a lot of pressure on our defence.

Potentially yes, but right now, no.

Yeah, I kind of mean potentially too, but if DZ can be persuaded to just play the agressive DM role and if JJ, Lennon and Steeeeed carry on like they have lately and if O'Hara and Thudd continue to progress like they have we've got a midfield comparable to anyone's, imo.

And even though they're allifs they're not massive ones.

That said I know I'm in the minority on this and if I'm honest the results thus far back the other argument, however I still think I'm right :grin:

 

[haxman]

That said I know I'm in the minority on this and if I'm honest the results thus far back the other argument, however I still think I'm right :grin:

We'll see on the 24th. I hope I'm wrong. :up:

 

[yanno]

But to clarify, I'm a big fan of DZs, but he's sometimes too keen to come forward when what is required is for him to sit and that doersn't bring the best out of JJ. If ramos can get him playing disciplined then he's by far the best option. I reckon Ramos really rates him and will think he get get DZ to play DM properly.

It would be great if Ramos could turn Zokora into a top quality DM. But I have my doubts and examining the key skills of Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora, here's why:

i) passing ability - both Tainio and O'Hara are far superior short, quick passers of the ball to Zokora;

ii) reading of the game - both Tainio & O'Hara read the game much better than Zokora in a CM/DM position. After Ramos switched him, Zokora played very well as a spare or main CB, but it's easier to read the game and step out to break up play when you're playing in the back four. Tainio's display against Fabregas in the 2nd semi final was a masterclass in reading the game as a disciplined C/DM. I've never seen Zokora show anything like this ability when he's played in CM;

iii) speed and athleticism. Here Zokora is absolutely the winner. But as outstanding C/DMs like Carrick and Makelele have proven, speed of foot is far less important than speed of thought in the position. If you can read the game, you can be in the correct position to nick the ball or close down the opposition. Whereas I think Zokora's speed is far more useful when he plays in defence: it means we can play a high line, because he's not going to get beaten by the ball over the top, and it's the reason why he was so effective stepping up to break up play.

So, in short, the reason I believe Tainio and O'Hara are better bets for the C/DM position alongside JJ is because they're better short passers of the ball and superior readers of the game. And whilst I hold Juande in very high regard, I don't think passing and reading of the game can be coached on the training ground in a few weeks.

 

[rich75]

I see the logic of your team, but I've never seen the point of Keano at ALM. It was Jol's standard substitution: Defoe/Bent on for Steed, and stick Keano out wide - where he was always hopeless. Whereas when Ramos has played with three strikers, he's usually dropped Berba into the hole and played the other two centrally, right up top.

Lennon at pace can skin Cashley or Bridge. But the real weak link in Chelski's defence is Belletti. He's genuinely poor defensively. There was one CL game I watched where he'd completely lost the plot. Plus he's cynical enough to foul a player that goes past him, so I'd want one of our players to run at him over and again. Maybe Robbie could do the job, but as above, I've never seen him be effective in that wide left position.

except against chelsea , when he crossed for lennons goal :wink:

 

[yanno]

except against chelsea , when he crossed for lennons goal :wink:

Well remembered! :up:

Maybe I'm wrong and Legend10 is correct: Robbie should play wide left against Chavski....

 

[sloth]

It would be great if Ramos could turn Zokora into a top quality DM. But I have my doubts and examining the key skills of Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora, here's why:

i) passing ability - both Tainio and O'Hara are far superior short, quick passers of the ball to Zokora;

ii) reading of the game - both Tainio & O'Hara read the game much better than Zokora in a CM/DM position. After Ramos switched him, Zokora played very well as a spare or main CB, but it's easier to read the game and step out to break up play when you're playing in the back four. Tainio's display against Fabregas in the 2nd semi final was a masterclass in reading the game as a disciplined C/DM. I've never seen Zokora show anything like this ability when he's played in CM;

iii) speed and athleticism. Here Zokora is absolutely the winner. But as outstanding C/DMs like Carrick and Makelele have proven, speed of foot is far less important than speed of thought in the position. If you can read the game, you can be in the correct position to nick the ball or close down the opposition. Whereas I think Zokora's speed is far more useful when he plays in defence: it means we can play a high line, because he's not going to get beaten by the ball over the top, and it's the reason why he was so effective stepping up to break up play.

So, in short, the reason I believe Tainio and O'Hara are better bets for the C/DM position alongside JJ is because they're better short passers of the ball and superior readers of the game. And whilst I hold Juande in very high regard, I don't think passing and reading of the game can be coached on the training ground in a few weeks.

I hear you, but I disagree.

I think O'Hara's one for the future, but also have a sneaking suspicion that he hasn't much more development in him (probably totally wrong on that though). A player in the Tainio mould.

Tainio's also very good.

I think DZ is better at short and medium distance passing and loses out to O'Hara on the longer balls. He's good at keeping the ball moving and almost never concedes possession. He also reads the game exceptionally well when facing towards it, however when he has his back to the game he too often gets caught out and he needs to work on this aspect of game awareness (especially in and around our box).

His biggest failing though is the discipline or lack thereof he brings to his assigned role. I don't know whether this is due to him or because the previous regime failed to define what they wanted (I suspect mostly him), but I'm encouraged by JJs comments in the press about Ramos' clear instructions regarding what he expects each player to do. I'm also encouraged by the teams new found ability to keep their shape.

In short then, I rate O'Hara and Tainio but not as highly as you. On the other hand I rate DZ more highly than you do, in fact if he can pull all the strands together I believe he can be one of the best in the Premiership.

I do know where you're coming from though.

 

[sloth]

I'm going to post a hunch and suggest if everybody is fit and available that our starting line up will be this....


...............................Cerny..............................

Hutton...........Woodgate.....King...........Chimbonda

............................TT/Hudd............................

.....................JJ...................Steed..................

Lenon.......................................................Keane

.............................Berbatov..............................

I know it's only a hunch, but I think it's a wrong hunch.

I think he'll go with Woodgate and King at CB with Hutton and Chimbo or Gilberto taking the FB positions.

Midfield will be JJ and DZ with Lenon and Steed on the flanks. Up front will be Berbatov and Keane.

Nothing surprising in that I know but I think it's what Ramos has in his head as his strongest line-up. I think the surprises may come with the substitutions.