Dont fix what isnt broken..

[spurs12345]

It seems that now-a-days SOME people feel a name is bigger than the role. When people are asking about replacement for next season they are leaving out Steed and Hudd when they have played amazing this season.

Also there is a need for a 'top goalkeeper'. From what ive seen, Cerny seems to be doing a perfectly well and whilst i know his contract is running out, if he is performing for us, why not try and increase his contract. Yes granted he may be on very good form at the moment and we will need to get anouther goalkeeper in, im just saying before we get all carried away with players we've never seen before. lets reward the players who are performing with a bit of loyalty.

It's not always about the name, their status, but how well they function in the team.

 

[TrueYid]

Firstly the names you mention above are good players and are serving our club very well...

HOWEVER...

It isn't a question of not "fixing" what isn't "broken" - how do you define broken? and fixed.

At the start of the season our target was top 6 minimum, and next seasons would have been top 4 minimum.. so in that respect you could say that it is "broken" as you put it. There will be many reasons why we are "broken" this season, the whole Martin Jol/Juande Ramos saga for one, key injuries another BUT these are all reasons which don't make the status quo change.

We must be looking for top 6 minimum and breaking into the top four within the next two years, in order to do that we need to bring in top quality players. Good players are not good enough, we should never be happy with what we have Sir Alex is never happy and is always looking to bring in the very best, the same with Chelsea. If we want to compete we must improve in every area we can.

Drogba was available to come to Spurs would you turn it down because Keane is a great player? If C. Ronaldo was available? would we turn it down because Lennon is playing so well?

The whole notion of Don't break what isn't broken is a useless idea when it comes to challenging at the top of the most elite leauge in the world of football. Yes, many players are doing very good jobs for us, but we must ALWAYS look to improve in every area possible.

 

[Kyras]

It is a valid point and I agree, more so with Huddlestone, he has played really well this season, his best game in a spurs shirt came against Man Utd. and if he can keep it up he shouldn't be replaced. Steed is also having an amazing season, and I think once a left back with a left foot is behind him we won't lack any crosses coming in because Bale and Gilberto have both got great delivery.

In response to TrueYid, the points about C. Ronaldo and Drogba are valid, I know you used those two as exagerated examples, but I can see where you're coming from; however, I don't feel that there are many better right wingers than Aaron Lennon on his day (this season under Juande) and he has still got massive potential to improve - his natural asset is his pace, and all the other things can be taught.

Also, with Steed there, we can blood Rose on the left slowly to take over from him when he leaves or Rose exceeds him.

 

[nidge]

It's about progression and keeping ahead of the teams around us. This summer several teams got significantly stronger whereas we more less bought for the future and only the signing of Bale can be seen as progression (unfortunately now out for the season) so although so players play well for me it's all about our strength relative to the teams around us.

 

[striebs]

Even playing their socks off under a good manager that the squad still has a way to go before it can depose one of the top 4 , especially when they will strengthen themselves to fend off our challenge .

Having made a net expenditure of about £60m since the back to back fifths (plus goodness knows how much in wage commitments) , it's reasonable to assume that the board will go on to spend what is neccessary in the Summer for a serious assault on top-4 plus silverware plus retaining our stars (a further 40+m?) .

Thus we will end up having spent over £100m to stand a decent chance of making the jump from 5th to Champion's league qualification place - and staying there .

 

[Yid-ol]

i never like it when people say "dont fix what isnt broken" are we top of the league> winning all the cups, in Champions league? nope, there forfor it isnt fixed yet is it :wink: even when we win a game, poorly and dont deserve it, the next game will come round and people will say dont fix what isnt broken even when it wasnt right befor!

Yes reward the players who have played well this season, but we also must look to improve and if better players come on offer then we have to try and go for them, but we shouldnt go out and just buy anyone, they should be the right players at the right price! no more throwing money about because we need players we need the quality players now

 

[Bulletspur]

It seems that now-a-days SOME people feel a name is bigger than the role. When people are asking about replacement for next season they are leaving out Steed and Hudd when they have played amazing this season.

Also there is a need for a 'top goalkeeper'. From what ive seen, Cerny seems to be doing a perfectly well and whilst i know his contract is running out, if he is performing for us, why not try and increase his contract. Yes granted he may be on very good form at the moment and we will need to get anouther goalkeeper in, im just saying before we get all carried away with players we've never seen before. lets reward the players who are performing with a bit of loyalty.

It's not always about the name, their status, but how well they function in the team.

This is already been covered on another thread "Your ideal Spurs team at the end of August". Why replicate?

 

[striebs]

i never like it when people say "dont fix what isnt broken" are we top of the league....

With Liverpool's goings on it has been said that the gap between 4th and 5th is smaller than the gap between 3rd and 4th .

With Tottenhams revenue levels (plus a significant amount of speculative investment for the first time in Enic's tenure ) if we have a good Summer window 4th place will be a realistic target next season .

To make the jump from 4th to 3rd or above is simply not a realistic short term proposition at current revenue levels .

Before we go chasing titles we've got to get the ground sorted out and establish a track record which sells tat merchandise to young people Worldwide who haven't even heard of Tottenham Hotspur . Ask a Leed's fan .

 

[Yid-ol]

With Liverpool's goings on it has been said that the gap between 4th and 5th is smaller than the gap between 3rd and 4th .

well with the gap from 4th-5th just now being 1 point (and that is liverpool in 5th), and the gap from 3rd to 4th beign 10, i would say its true and not just what is being said :lol:

With Tottenhams revenue levels (plus a significant amount of speculative investment for the first time in Enic's tenure ) if we have a good Summer window 4th place will be a realistic target next season .

To make the jump from 4th to 3rd or above is simply not a realistic short term proposition at current revenue levels .

Before we go chasing titles we've got to get the ground sorted out and establish a track record which sells tat merchandise to young people Worldwide who haven't even heard of Tottenham Hotspur . Ask a Leed's fan .

which is what i am saying, we are not fixed yet as we need to still improve the squad with some better players, untill we are challanging up for the top houners then i will never see our team as being "fixed" as there will be room for improvment

 

[Real_madyidd]

Surely we should just improve whenever and wherever we can? If we can upgrade on anyone we should, no matter how "perfectly good" they are doing.

 

[spurs12345]

your right bulletspur, it is very closely linked to that thread however, i thought wanted to focus on the the names and status some people like to bring to the squad. I wasnt really talking about a whole dream squad for next year but rather the generalisation that so called "better" players will bring us more success.

Having listened to peoples points I do feel everyone has valid points and to be a top team you will need top players. I was just saying if a player has not let us down and there churning out good performances, sometimes it may be better to stick to them if they are young (in the cases of huddlestone and o hara) rather than bring in a forgein player who needs time to adapt, and let the youth players develop.

Real Madyidd, i disagree to some extent because i believe if a player overtakes someone who has been playing perfectly well, it can lead to the squad being dissettled and not functioning as well as before. The plus side to your argument is that it will lead to competition which leads to players not getting complacent.

I think a compromise has to be reached and i am definatly not against new players: I feel it is crucial to our development. I just feel sometimes SOME people are quick to take people out of the squad and overwhemeled with someones name.

At the moment we could use some extra people to crack into the top four, I just hope the spurs board make the RIGHT replacements. The winter ones are a promising start.

 

[sloth]

It seems that now-a-days SOME people feel a name is bigger than the role. When people are asking about replacement for next season they are leaving out Steed and Hudd when they have played amazing this season.

Also there is a need for a 'top goalkeeper'. From what ive seen, Cerny seems to be doing a perfectly well and whilst i know his contract is running out, if he is performing for us, why not try and increase his contract. Yes granted he may be on very good form at the moment and we will need to get anouther goalkeeper in, im just saying before we get all carried away with players we've never seen before. lets reward the players who are performing with a bit of loyalty.

It's not always about the name, their status, but how well they function in the team.

I completely agree with the premise of this thread. I don't think the point being made is that we shouldn't strengthen if quality comes available, only that we've a few diamonds in the rough within the squad already, a bit of polishing from Senor Ramos could well see them come up nice.

I was saying this in the summer too, 30% of Wenger's skill is spotting young talent, 70% of it is bringing it through. Look at O'Hara, would he have had a look-in under Jol? Look at Gunter too, Prince, they're all getting match-time. And look at the improvement in JJ and in DZ now they're being given defined roles. And then look at how Kanoute came on once he went to Sevilla. i believe we've got some world class players in the squad already they're just playing below there potential. When world class players come from other teams you're buying talent, yes, but you're also buying the investment of a very good coach which has made that player world class. We have our own world class coach now and part of the reason we got him was to bring the full potential out of the player we have.

This summer several teams got significantly stronger whereas we more less bought for the future and only the signing of Bale can be seen as progression (unfortunately now out for the season) so although so players play well for me it's all about our strength relative to the teams around us.

Which teams do you mean? And which players did they buy?

 

[striebs]

spurs12345 , you make valid points .

Jim Dugan over on Topspurs provided a pontoon analogy that ditching Jol who had been successful for Ramos was like "twisting on 18" .

I don't understand this innate tendency among fans too think the grass is always greener .

Look at the under 21's yesterday , Milner was not blessed with a surplus of natural talent but has worked his nuts off to get where he is and plays like it is a privilege to be on the pitch every game .
First teams needs players as well as stars , it's too early to say which O'Hara will become .

 

[striebs]

....
Look at O'Hara, would he have had a look-in under Jol? Look at Gunter too, Prince, they're all getting match-time. And look at the improvement in JJ and in DZ now they're being given defined roles. And then look at how Kanoute came on once he went to Sevilla.

Isn't the same point which 12345 made about players also applicable to coaches ?

Out of the examples you gave I agree that DZ has shown an improvement but the others are very much a matter of opinion and perception .

- How could Jol have blooded anyone with damacle's sword hanging over his head and pressure to play Commoli's ones for the future before academy product .
Jol got David's to rehabilitate O'Hara and let him out on a good loan which arguably got him to the stage where he is an option for the first team .

- JJ's performance and fitness were much same as they are now . Only fans perceptions of him have changed .

- Kanoute was one of the best reasons to go and see Spurs during a frustrating time and it was one the clubs mistakes to insist players go on a post season tour and Jol's mistake to let it get so out of hand as to lose him .
He was always a top player and landed in a league where they play the higher class of football he is capable of .

- How many starts has KPB had ? Doesn't look like he will make the grade to me , pity we couldn't bring Ghaly back instead .

 

[Real_madyidd]

Look at O'Hara, would he have had a look-in under Jol?

Yes.

O Hara was sent on loan by Jol. OHara did extra training under Jol. O Hara was starting to get into the squad under Jol. I was going through the pictures on my mobile the other day and I noticed pictures from the lane. I had a picture of O Hara's shirt when it was hung up before the league cup game against southend last year. I only took the picture because I had no clue who he was. Jol had certainly earmarked him as one for the first team.

 

[dj_stu]

i believe the queen's english term should be "what ain't broken"

 

[Real_madyidd]

i believe the queen's english term should be "what ain't broken"

Please use a capital letter when referring to the Queen. For that matter "English" too.

For your information the Queen says: "If it aint broke, I'll bust a cap in it's arse. Bee-arch." She is down with the kids! (but she is a gooner.)

 

[sloth]

Isn't the same point which 12345 made about players also applicable to coaches ?

Being the main man at a club like Spurs is not like being a player in a team. A head coach isn't about development, there's no giving Jol the odd game here or there and bring him on slowly, there's no one working with him on the training ground to bring the best out of him, showing him the defensive drills, the way to instil a winning mentality, helping him find the right ethos, the best attitude.

And when the team you coach stagnates, when from being CL contenders they've dropped to relegation fodder and already a third of the season played. Worse, when the team you coach has been reduced to quivering wrecks at the mere hint of a set-piece, when you admit yourself to being unable to look whenever a corner or free-kick is played into the box. When fitness is an issue, confidence is shot and your in-game tactics turn victories into draws, draws into losses and only seem effective when you are already losing, when all these happen, it's time to say, enough developing, do your developing elsewhere.

And that's the big difference, you can't drop a poorly performing coach.

Lucky for us we had a chairman a damn sight smarter than most of the fans, while they were proclaiming their undying love for a portly Dutchman, he was quietly going about securing the services of one of the world's leading coaches, a proven winner and in eventually bringing him on board quite possibly made as important signing as any made in the history of our club.

Out of the examples you gave I agree that DZ has shown an improvement but the others are very much a matter of opinion and perception.

JJ's improvement is a matter of opinion and perception? Listen we can have a sensible discussion if you like, but I'm not going to start a silly argument over whether Ramos has improved the side or not.

How could Jol have blooded anyone with damacle's sword hanging over his head and pressure to play Commoli's ones for the future before academy product .
Jol got David's to rehabilitate O'Hara and let him out on a good loan which arguably got him to the stage where he is an option for the first team.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. Jol could play the players he thought were best for the job. This is what Ramos does. He doesn't blood players merely for the sake of it. He plays the players he thinks are best suited to the job in hand. Then you say something unclear about Davids?? But I take your point about O'Hara, only I don't ever remember Jol bringing a player back from a loan and into the first team, O'Hara by all accounts returned from Millwall, caught Ramos's eye on the training field causing him to ask "Who is this guy. I like him!", but you're right, we'll never know what Jol would or wouldn't have done so I won't belabour the point.

- JJ's performance and fitness were much same as they are now . Only fans perceptions of him have changed.

Not according to the player himself. Plus, I simply can't accept that you can't see the difference between JJ now and before. Perceptions my @rse. That's what's called self-delusion.

Kanoute was one of the best reasons to go and see Spurs during a frustrating time and it was one the clubs mistakes to insist players go on a post season tour and Jol's mistake to let it get so out of hand as to lose him .
He was always a top player and landed in a league where they play the higher class of football he is capable of

Funnily enough i agree with you, but it was Ramos who turned him to the complete article that he is. again listen to what the player himself actually says about the improvements Ramos wrought in him.

How many starts has KPB had ? Doesn't look like he will make the grade to me , pity we couldn't bring Ghaly back instead.

And that is of course a matter of opinion. I'd be confident in placing a wager with you that he does.

But all that aside. Ramos is a vastly superior coach to Jol. It's no surprise to me that Jol remains out of work and the only clubs interested have been the likes of Fulham, Birmingham and Wigan. Good luck to the big guy, but i'm far more optimistic with Ramos than I ever was with him.

 

[idlepete]

Lucky for us we had a chairman a damn sight smarter than most of the fans, while they were proclaiming their undying love for a portly Dutchman, he was quietly going about securing the services of one of the world's leading coaches, a proven winner and in eventually bringing him on board quite possibly made as important signing as any made in the history of our club.

Were you out of the country at the time?

 

[sloth]

Were you out of the country at the time?

:lol: yeah well maybe not so quietly.